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#1077478 - 12/01/06 12:21 AM 300 rwhp 2V 4.6 bolt ons?
Bradley G Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 09/09/05
Posts: 1121
Loc: Barrington Il.
With all that is available bolt on, can this be achieved on stock internals?
The 2002 GMQ LSE HPP dyno'ed 196RWHP 230 RWTQ bone stock.
I know spraying Nos would get it there.
What about all the readily available mods?
I am thinking this would require custom tuning and better octane fuel?
Induction MM air box, zip tube, MM Maf, throttle body ported plenum & spacers.
elect water pump, underdrive pullies. exhaust. methanol injection.

what else?
_________________________
'04 Trilogy Marauder #93P 4:10 gears,31 spline axles, HD Cobra carrier,
j-Mod,Boxed lower control arms,limo uppers,rear sway bar, driveshaft safety loop, 3600 Circle D stall, yeah it's a handful
418rwhp 416 rwtq @15 PSI 93 Octane
tuned by Lonnie Doll Dyno Jet @ BOC 12.2@113 1.8@60'
2002 GMQ LSE HPP built trans W/JMod,&restalled 11"@2800 4:10's ,MZT,UD's,China junk intake manifold, 15.2@89.XX 91 Octane Lonnie Doll @ BOC
http://www.blueovalchips.com/

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#1077479 - 12/01/06 12:23 AM Re: 300 rwhp 2V 4.6 bolt ons?
Darnon Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 02/12/06
Posts: 1730
Loc: Attica, NY
Don't think you'd need methanol injection without forced induction. Of course, a good blower could put you at 300 rwhp right there (engine might not last long past 100k, though)
_________________________
How a politician stands on the Second Amendment tells you how he or she views you as an individual; as a trustworthy & productive citizen or as part of an unruly crowd that needs to be lorded over, controlled, supervised, and taken care of. -Texas State Representative Dr. Suzanna Hupp

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#1077480 - 12/01/06 06:52 AM Re: 300 rwhp 2V 4.6 bolt ons?
theredlineboss Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 08/10/04
Posts: 1555
Loc: Taylor, MI
I don't think you will get anywhere near 300RWHP with bolt ons. Look at my mods, and the resulting dyno sheet.
Of course, there are a few mods which I have not done (x-pipe, ported plenum, etc), but I'd expect that my car is pretty much maxed out, at least with N/A. I *could* go for an electric water pump, but the cost to benefit ratio for a daily driver is not too favorable.

Rob
_________________________
1996 Police Interceptor-Glory days are over frown - old specs below **216K miles**; Daily driver now a stock '97 Vic **157K miles**
Engine: '03 4.6 w/ underdrives, shorties, custom downpipes, MZT, 70MM T/B, ADTR ported plenum, & Dyno Tuned.
Trans: Y2K 4r70w w/ J-mod, Spiral Lock clip, '04 Marauder TC, and an Econoline trans cooler.
Suspension/steering/brakes: '02 PI steering box, 17" 'stang wheels, '95 ABS master cyl., ADDCO bars, and Big Brake Upgrade!
Misc: '98+ Heated mirrors, 2-tone Gray interior, 98+ gauges, oil cooler-delete, and LX Sport console w/ floor shift!

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#1077481 - 12/01/06 09:57 AM Re: 300 rwhp 2V 4.6 bolt ons?
JCG1 Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 07/03/03
Posts: 1725
Loc: Chicago
Guys, the man has a trilogy MM, and I sat behind him in the lanes and watched him run 12 flat without traction, so I think he's got an idea of what a blower can do . . .

Brad, Tony is very close to 300 ON THE MOTOR (not the wheels) with every bolt-on known to man in a PI including the tubes.
My built motor (high compression, heads, mild cams, plenum, tb, injectors, etc) ought to come close once it's tuned, but still probably gonna be short of that at the wheels I'd think - maybe on race gas with a radical tune.

I could DEFINITELY have gotten there with 270ah cams and a ported bullit/P51/Reichart/Sullivan type race manifold. NA.
But daily drivability would have been in the toilet (since it would have needed BIG stall and 4+ gears). I'm about to go drive in the SH*T we got on the ground. Of course . . . you've got 4's don't you . . . so maybe you wouldn't care about that.

So here's the NA deal: Fully forged motor by Renegade/VT/Boss330 or one of the better builders (see me sig) but with "stage2" cams, race manifold, more rear/stall and you; radical tune. You can get it.

NITROUS: will do it faster and cheaper, obviously.
AndrasOtto and Iddiaz (neither of whom post that often any more) have verified nitrous numbers posted iirc, not sure if they had 300 at the wheels but they were both running the gas on essentially full bolt-on motors. LUIS! where are you!

[edit: As for times, Andras sig says 12.94 / Iddiaz 13.5; by my rough calculation on a 4600lb car that would take at way over 300 at the wheels]
_________________________
Former Ford Projects: 1967 Mustang w/transplant 351W : 1984 302 T-Bird : 1987 5.0 T-Bird : 1989 5.0 Mustang : 1992 5.0 T-Bird : Current: 2000 CVPI
Renegade Racing 4.6 SOHC: Cobra Crank, Manley Rods, Coated Diamond Pistons 10.5:1 comp w/valve reliefs, PnP npi heads, PI intake, Comp Cams, 70mm TB, MM Airbox/80mmMAF/04 Zip, 190lph walbro, FRPP shortys, custom 2.25 duals, Xcal2, Jmod RoadmasterTranz, Dirtyd0g TC.
14.46 @ 95.59 / 14.50 @ 95.91 tuned by Darrin at BC Automotive
Watch a 14.58 @ 94.13 Vid by DJChicago HERE

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#1077482 - 12/01/06 10:31 AM Re: 300 rwhp 2V 4.6 bolt ons?
PowerSurge Offline
Climber

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 510
Loc: Just North of Daytona, FL
It can be done, it just comes down to how much do you want to spend?

My bro's 96 Grand Marquis is all stock, with just a conical air kit I built for it, removed mufflers, and my tune, and it makes 215 rwhp.

On the flip side of that, I have a customer with an 03 GT, that still has the stock long block, and makes 318rwhp. He's got a PI motor obviously, and every bolt on known to man, and my tuning of course. It would have been WAYYY cheaper if he just slapped an S trim on the car from the get go, but he wanted to see how far we could take the stock motor.

So 300 rwhp in one of these cars? Sure. But be prepared to spend LOTS of money. Like PI head conversion, cams, P51 intake, long tubes, electric water pump, etc, etc...
_________________________
Sal Mennella - Power Surge Performance - Custom Tuning Specialists
2000 CVPI Project MadMax 2006 - 5.4 Whipple powered 600rwhp 11.39 @ 121 - Sold but not forgotten
2003 CVPI - current daily driver
1990 Turbo SHO - for sale
CSX 4241 Shelby American 427 Cobra S/C

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#1077483 - 12/01/06 01:17 PM Re: 300 rwhp 2V 4.6 bolt ons?
JohnG Offline
Tech Admin
Grand Poobah

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 13025
Loc: Socialist state of MN
It would be cheaper, faster, and easier to install a 4.6L 3V engine.

The question is, what to do about a PCM and harness. I am fairly sure the 3V engine can be adapted to the 2V harness, and the PCMs are both 104 pins (same connector), so it should not be THAT difficult.
_________________________
- 2004 Mercury Grand Marquis (GMQ) GS - aka "Data"
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#1077484 - 12/01/06 03:11 PM Re: 300 rwhp 2V 4.6 bolt ons?
Tony_the_Brit Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 09/16/01
Posts: 2906
Loc: Indiana - South Bend area
If you want that from a 2002 (no long-tube headers possible), I would agree that bolt-on stuff on stock internals will only get you to about 240rwhp unless you go to nitrous or a blower. Of course, both of the latter would be best with upgraded internals if you want longevity.

If you want the hp just for the track then just add a Nitrous system and make sure that it is set up right to come in above 2,500rpm (I would go 3,000 myself) to keep the stress on the motor down and minimize wheel spin issues. With that you could probably go for a 150hp setup and keep the engine together as long as it was tuned right. Most Nitrous failures occur because of detonation or from the Nitrous being used at too low revs.

If you want it for the road, then go for the AED supercharger with 6lbs boost. It should get you to around 290 - underdrives and a couple of other tweaks should put you to 300rwhp all day long and oooh sooo drivable with 2.73 stock rear end.
_________________________

03 Crown Vic LX Sport maroon 1/4 ET = 14.237, MPH = 94.80...243rwhp 284rwtq(SAE) 175,000 m
03 P71 silver 213rwhp 251rwtq 190,000 m
04 P71 Spruce Green 101,000m
04 P73 Dark Toreador 105,000m
07 P71 Arizona Beige 185,000m
11 Crown Vic LX Blue 87,000 m

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#1077485 - 12/01/06 03:31 PM Re: 300 rwhp 2V 4.6 bolt ons?
JCG1 Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 07/03/03
Posts: 1725
Loc: Chicago
The mustang's a manual, not an auto, right Sal? Manifold and cams, I take it, as part of the bolt-ons? What rpm is that number going down at?

I'd think that the magic number is going to be a tough reach in a Panther with a mere PI headswap on the stock block (even an 03+ where you could run tubes) . . . and I don't see it lasting for long if it's seriously run (and what would be the point otherwise).

The combination of the high-rev manifold/cams and the need to run in that upper rpm band while still shoving a panther around - with the stock bottom - is asking for reliability issues, especially on a super-hot tune. You'd have to be squeezing EVERY LAST OUNCE out of that motor - and in a knock constrained non-built modular (e.g. stock bearings, hyperpathetic crap internals, stock oiling, etc.) . . . that's asking for trouble of one sort or another, long-term.

To do it RIGHT (or even 1/2 assed) would be TRULY expensive, that is for sure (rough numbers)
Properly built high-rev NA modular with heads ($10k +)
(and add a few grand more because if you wanted to really do it NA; you should consider a sleeved big bore bottom)
PLUS the money to buy and prep the manifold and other small stuff ($2k +)
PLUS the tubes ($1k)
PLUS the super-duty trans ($2k)
PLUS the 4+ rar and the axle upgrades I'd want with that package ($1k +)
and of course we'd have to start with an 03 to use the tubes so the start price is higher than with a discarded old P71.
And we haven't factored in tuning costs or wheels/tires (drag radials if you wanted to actually RUN the 14 flat that the 300hp will get you in a panther)

You wanna ramp up the hp by about 100 points at the tires naturally, hit it regularly, and keep it around for more than a season or two, you should build it properly. But I've blown sh*t up before by trying to save on the forged/expensive parts, so I have a bias against stock bottoms and 15 years ago swore never to make that mistake again if I intended to race or stomp on the toy. My long-ass-winded $.98
_________________________
Former Ford Projects: 1967 Mustang w/transplant 351W : 1984 302 T-Bird : 1987 5.0 T-Bird : 1989 5.0 Mustang : 1992 5.0 T-Bird : Current: 2000 CVPI
Renegade Racing 4.6 SOHC: Cobra Crank, Manley Rods, Coated Diamond Pistons 10.5:1 comp w/valve reliefs, PnP npi heads, PI intake, Comp Cams, 70mm TB, MM Airbox/80mmMAF/04 Zip, 190lph walbro, FRPP shortys, custom 2.25 duals, Xcal2, Jmod RoadmasterTranz, Dirtyd0g TC.
14.46 @ 95.59 / 14.50 @ 95.91 tuned by Darrin at BC Automotive
Watch a 14.58 @ 94.13 Vid by DJChicago HERE

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#1077486 - 12/01/06 03:40 PM Re: 300 rwhp 2V 4.6 bolt ons?
PowerSurge Offline
Climber

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 510
Loc: Just North of Daytona, FL
Quote:

The mustang's a manual, not an auto, right Sal? Manifold and cams, I take it, as part of the bolt-ons? What rpm is that number going down at?





That's true, this is a stick car, although he'll be converting to a 4R70 once he breaks this trans. So take away about 15rwhp for the auto, and it's still over 300rwhp.

This is not a radical race gas only setup. It's a pump gas street racer. He beats the living snot out of it. Peak hp is at 6400 rpms (it's actually still going up at that point, but we can't spin the motor anymore), BUT the car also makes over 300 ftlbs in the midrange. Naturally I would not use these specific cams for a heavier car, but better suited ones could be used for more midrange.

I don't understand why everyone here talks about these motors like they can't take power. These motors, even in non-PI form, can take 450rwhp safely, bone stock.

Like I said before, it would take a LOT of dough to build a 300rwhp 4.6 2 valve Panther, but it could be done. The question is why would you want to put that kind of money into a project like that, when you can spend the same amount for a nice blower setup and have that kind of hp, PLUS gobs of torque.
_________________________
Sal Mennella - Power Surge Performance - Custom Tuning Specialists
2000 CVPI Project MadMax 2006 - 5.4 Whipple powered 600rwhp 11.39 @ 121 - Sold but not forgotten
2003 CVPI - current daily driver
1990 Turbo SHO - for sale
CSX 4241 Shelby American 427 Cobra S/C

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#1077487 - 12/01/06 03:56 PM Re: 300 rwhp 2V 4.6 bolt ons?
Tony_the_Brit Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 09/16/01
Posts: 2906
Loc: Indiana - South Bend area
The AED 6psi blower IS a bolt-on item guys.
_________________________

03 Crown Vic LX Sport maroon 1/4 ET = 14.237, MPH = 94.80...243rwhp 284rwtq(SAE) 175,000 m
03 P71 silver 213rwhp 251rwtq 190,000 m
04 P71 Spruce Green 101,000m
04 P73 Dark Toreador 105,000m
07 P71 Arizona Beige 185,000m
11 Crown Vic LX Blue 87,000 m

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#1077488 - 12/01/06 04:24 PM Re: 300 rwhp 2V 4.6 bolt ons?
Ciffer Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 05/16/06
Posts: 4344
Loc: Socialist State of MN
muscle mustangs and fast fords ran a series of articles called "red-headed stepchild" with the goal of hitting 300rwhp with a non-pi mustang. i believe built bottom end and ported heads was on the list of mods, as well as a custom intake and endless dyno testing. might be worth reading the series, only one i can find is the last part which was from september
_________________________
-Carl
1997 Crown Victoria p71, garage queen. 135,000 miles.
MZT, T-45, ENS bushings, IAS shocks, magnaflow cat pipes, Truetrac, 02 brakes, 99 TC rims, 97 TC seats, Mark VIII fan.

1987 Mercedes-Benz 300D Turbo. Winter car. 139hp of slow. 227k when the odometer broke long ago. Runs, shifts, drives, doesn't rust.

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#1077489 - 12/01/06 04:55 PM Re: 300 rwhp 2V 4.6 bolt ons?
SteveS Offline

Administrator
Posting Addict

Registered: 05/16/01
Posts: 15881
Loc: Groveland, MA
How many RWHP did Paul's car have? Does anyone remember?
_________________________
Steve
**Boston SmartTraveler road unit 473**


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#1077490 - 12/01/06 04:58 PM Re: 300 rwhp 2V 4.6 bolt ons?
Embassy Offline

Grand Poobah

Registered: 10/20/01
Posts: 14633
Loc: Mao's Smoking Lounge and Piano...
Quote:

How many RWHP did Paul's car have? Does anyone remember?




I thought of TurboVic when I read this thread's title.

I am guessing his claim of 300hp was gross and not net.
_________________________
2003 Procharged Marauder, F.I.T. #003
2004 SAP P71
The EmbassyVic:SOLD!
'01 P71: SOLD!

Keeping a black car clean is not a hobby. It's a part time job.
Support the troops.

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#1077491 - 12/01/06 07:35 PM Re: 300 rwhp 2V 4.6 bolt ons?
panther service advisor Offline
Climber

Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 783
Loc: Ft. Lauderdale, FL
Folks I agree with Tony-the-Brit. Add a AED 6lb kit and enjoy. If you go the AED route you will have a smile on your face within 48 hours if you do a weekend, take your time install. As I say time and time again, you have to build/enhance for torque to move these Panthers. Even if you build a eng that is putting 300rwhp, you still will not have the torque, drivability, or fuel economy that the AED enhanced panther will produce. By the way, not mention the excessive amounts you would have spent on the NA engine. If you are stuck on NA, start with a 5.4 PI or a MM engine, but still to costly.
_________________________
03 CV Sport (1 of 2,349) with Scan Gauge II, 21 mm rear sway bar, 02B02 fuel tank shield, MZT by B.O.C with 87 and 93 octane tune.
96 CV LX with every option including memory seat and air suspension, except HPP. mods:98+ front brakes, 98-02 CVPI wheels, CVPI front springs, anti-sway bars, 02B02 fuel tank shield, CVPI TC and flywheel and CVPI PCM. (sold)
99 Dodge Dakota R/T 5.9 Club Cab Red 1 of 1100 (sold)
2004 Ford Expedition Eddie Bauer (4X2) (Weekend family hauler)(sold)
2010 Lincoln Navigator L (new weekend family hauler)
1989 Taurus SHO Hypertech chip and Big brake upgrade (sold)
1993 Taurus SHO Big brake upgrade (sold)

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#1077492 - 12/01/06 08:07 PM Re: 300 rwhp 2V 4.6 bolt ons?
JCG1 Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 07/03/03
Posts: 1725
Loc: Chicago
Quote:

muscle mustangs and fast fords ran a series of articles called "red-headed stepchild" with the goal of hitting 300rwhp with a non-pi mustang. i believe built bottom end and ported heads was on the list of mods, as well as a custom intake and endless dyno testing. might be worth reading the series, only one i can find is the last part which was from september




I wouldn't quote that article. Nor rely on the stuff they print. That and they're KNOWN to fudge numbers.

The "porter" Holdy used (and he related this info in the article as true) thinks he CAN'T run PI-rate cams in an NPI head; so they stuck with the older npi-style comp cams with lower lift.

Almost made me run out and pull the -ah cams out of my NPI heads I mean, if MMFF says you CAN'T run PI-rate lift in an NPI-headed motor . . .

Sent a PM to a number of people I know who run BIGGER cams than my lowly 262ah's in their npi heads (with cut pistons, and since, as you point out, they BUILT the bottom, there's no excuse for him not knowing that there are ALOT of guys running Jim O'Neill's NPI heads with honking PI-rate cams - with flycuts and headwork)

I've already posted an amusing thread on it a couple times with quotes directly from the article. Typically, it appears the mag people went to an advertiser, and NOT the best source of information on the subject of working NPI heads (which would be Jim, in my research on the subject).
_________________________
Former Ford Projects: 1967 Mustang w/transplant 351W : 1984 302 T-Bird : 1987 5.0 T-Bird : 1989 5.0 Mustang : 1992 5.0 T-Bird : Current: 2000 CVPI
Renegade Racing 4.6 SOHC: Cobra Crank, Manley Rods, Coated Diamond Pistons 10.5:1 comp w/valve reliefs, PnP npi heads, PI intake, Comp Cams, 70mm TB, MM Airbox/80mmMAF/04 Zip, 190lph walbro, FRPP shortys, custom 2.25 duals, Xcal2, Jmod RoadmasterTranz, Dirtyd0g TC.
14.46 @ 95.59 / 14.50 @ 95.91 tuned by Darrin at BC Automotive
Watch a 14.58 @ 94.13 Vid by DJChicago HERE

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