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#2563678 - 07/21/12 11:58 PM Re: Engine coolant types and coolant change advice [Re: Black_Sunshine]
coolguy147 Offline
Climber

Registered: 10/23/11
Posts: 819
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: Black_Sunshine
Originally Posted By: dubch87
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This is the exact combo that I used a couple of weeks ago. I kept it simple. I drained and refilled. I didn't do any flushing. The coolant that came out was still bright yellow and clear. I replaced the thermostat as well and there was no signs of any corrosion there.


Me too...except i'm using green coolant and flushing with distilled water....
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#2563696 - 07/22/12 12:32 AM Re: Engine coolant types and coolant change advice [Re: stalag]
dubch87 Offline

Climber

Registered: 04/24/08
Posts: 589
Loc: NC
stalag,

Why does G-05 become crusty and white when it evaporates/dries?
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#2563920 - 07/22/12 01:03 PM Re: Engine coolant types and coolant change advice [Re: stalag]
stalag Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 4043
Loc: Columbus, OH
Because of the borate salts in the coolant that are used to buffer/make the coolant basic.
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#2564315 - 07/23/12 01:38 AM Re: Engine coolant types and coolant change advice [Re: stalag]
enslow Offline
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Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 1569
Loc: Vancouver
And borate salts are solid, but dissolve in water just like table salt dissolves in water.
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#2564360 - 07/23/12 07:51 AM Re: Engine coolant types and coolant change advice [Re: enslow]
Den49 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/23/12
Posts: 162
Loc: Maryland
Enslow,

Thanks for the good information on PH. I have been using PH test strips for many years to evaluate the health of the coolant and when it needs to be changed. My thinking is that the long-life coolants of today are much better than they were when they were introduced. As long as the PH is above 8.0, I am thinking that the Ford long-life coolant is good up to the initial 6yr./105,000mi. and subsequent 3yr./45,000mi. scheduled change intervals. Your thoughts?
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#2564364 - 07/23/12 08:54 AM Re: Engine coolant types and coolant change advice [Re: Den49]
stalag Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 4043
Loc: Columbus, OH
Originally Posted By: Den49
Enslow,

Thanks for the good information on PH. I have been using PH test strips for many years to evaluate the health of the coolant and when it needs to be changed. My thinking is that the long-life coolants of today are much better than they were when they were introduced. As long as the PH is above 8.0, I am thinking that the Ford long-life coolant is good up to the initial 6yr./105,000mi. and subsequent 3yr./45,000mi. scheduled change intervals. Your thoughts?


Den, the TSB and the issues with the shortened coolant life is due to use of tap water and incomplete flushing of the cooling system. Properly flushed with distilled water only and restored with fresh coolant, the G-05 coolant should be good for another 5 years of use. Since most do not listen to the science on this, Ford released the TSB for 3 years after the first coolant flush in the field that the 3 year regimin was to be followed after that.
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#2564377 - 07/23/12 09:27 AM Re: Engine coolant types and coolant change advice [Re: stalag]
Black_Sunshine Offline
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Registered: 12/09/10
Posts: 9688
Loc: AZ
A partial drain and fill is so easy and cheap that it doesn't seem like a bad idea to do it annually.
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#2679431 - 03/08/13 01:27 PM Re: Engine coolant types and coolant change advice [Re: stalag]
amitkulz Offline
n00b

Registered: 12/11/08
Posts: 44
Loc: Dallas, TX
Originally Posted By: stalag
Originally Posted By: amitkulz
stalag,

I did the coolant flush and change to Zerex EC-1 over the last 3 days. I flushed and drained using distilled water only. I used 27 gallons and still it wouldn't run totally clear, I gave up and filled with EC-1. It had a pale yellow color, when initially it was kinda dark green, then light green, then pale yellow, then getting closer to watery color. Initially, it had blackish deposits (some kind of rubber hose somewhere was degrading). I did upper/lower and both heater hoses. Just drained the radiator with 6 qts every time.

The heater hoses were tough to remove, I should have gotten the S.E. Tools (SES860L45) Mobea / Constant Tension Hose Clamp Pliers. I did it with a cheap $10 Harbor freight Tongue n groove plier. It took me 2 days to remove the heater hoses (one was stuck real bad) and put the lower radiator hose in the waterpump side. Good tools prove their value. I reused old spring clamps for the heater hoses (which were again tough to put on) and put three worm type clamps for the degas bottle connection to the T lower radiator hose and the heater hose to supply the degas bottle (Gates part # 28409). I used all gates hoses. In the middle of it all, I put the heater hose wrong, 5/8" side I put in the heater core nipple, when nipple needs 3/4". I had to cut that hose open and go to Oreilly's and get that Gates hose 18070 again!

Car's running fine with Motorcraft T-stat (with a Oreilly's Murray T-stat o-ring) and burps fine. Gates Thermostat o-ring is crappy, avoid it as its round all around when our T-stat needs a round o-ring with flat sides. (Look at Murray's T-stat oring picture and you will get what I am saying)

Thanks everybody for your exhaustive knowledge!


One question, Did you use coolant system cleaner after flushing the old coolant out?


No I did not use coolant system cleaner, because I was afraid of causing more problems. I have now flushed the coolant once more with a 1 gallon of concentrate and 1 gallon of distilled water...

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#2679483 - 03/08/13 03:19 PM Re: Engine coolant types and coolant change advice [Re: amitkulz]
stalag Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 4043
Loc: Columbus, OH
Originally Posted By: amitkulz
Originally Posted By: stalag
Originally Posted By: amitkulz
stalag,

I did the coolant flush and change to Zerex EC-1 over the last 3 days. I flushed and drained using distilled water only. I used 27 gallons and still it wouldn't run totally clear, I gave up and filled with EC-1. It had a pale yellow color, when initially it was kinda dark green, then light green, then pale yellow, then getting closer to watery color. Initially, it had blackish deposits (some kind of rubber hose somewhere was degrading). I did upper/lower and both heater hoses. Just drained the radiator with 6 qts every time.

The heater hoses were tough to remove, I should have gotten the S.E. Tools (SES860L45) Mobea / Constant Tension Hose Clamp Pliers. I did it with a cheap $10 Harbor freight Tongue n groove plier. It took me 2 days to remove the heater hoses (one was stuck real bad) and put the lower radiator hose in the waterpump side. Good tools prove their value. I reused old spring clamps for the heater hoses (which were again tough to put on) and put three worm type clamps for the degas bottle connection to the T lower radiator hose and the heater hose to supply the degas bottle (Gates part # 28409). I used all gates hoses. In the middle of it all, I put the heater hose wrong, 5/8" side I put in the heater core nipple, when nipple needs 3/4". I had to cut that hose open and go to Oreilly's and get that Gates hose 18070 again!

Car's running fine with Motorcraft T-stat (with a Oreilly's Murray T-stat o-ring) and burps fine. Gates Thermostat o-ring is crappy, avoid it as its round all around when our T-stat needs a round o-ring with flat sides. (Look at Murray's T-stat oring picture and you will get what I am saying)

Thanks everybody for your exhaustive knowledge!


One question, Did you use coolant system cleaner after flushing the old coolant out?


No I did not use coolant system cleaner, because I was afraid of causing more problems. I have now flushed the coolant once more with a 1 gallon of concentrate and 1 gallon of distilled water...


You will need to change this coolant then if you note a color change. Problem is that the ELC-1 coolants are not compatible with other style coolants. The cleaner is intended to get rid of limescale, undisolved solids, and other crud off of the surfaces to allow the ELC-1 anticorrosive compounds to protect the surfaces of the cooling system. This is actually important with all coolant types for whatever engine you choose to use your choice of product in the coolant system. Modern style coolants are not nearly as forgiving of contamination as the older style silicate/phosphate IAT technology coolants.
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#2679484 - 03/08/13 03:22 PM Re: Engine coolant types and coolant change advice [Re: enslow]
stalag Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 4043
Loc: Columbus, OH
Thanks for the confirmation of the quantity to rinse a coolant system. If you do use a coolant system cleaner the amounts are doubled. Coolant system cleaners are much more effective with a rinsed water system than with a old dirty coolant system. The equivalent is poring in soap into dirty water vs. poring soap into clean water. The soap in clean water will always clean better than soap in dirty water.

Originally Posted By: enslow
Understanding pH in Coolants

Overview

The ideal pH (or pH at which a coolant is still effective) can depend on the type of coolant. Each type of coolant has a different inhibitor and buffer package which will affect the useful pH. A buffer controls the pH by using a balance of an acid and base. The acid pH = 0-7, the base pH is 7-12. (Actually, 7 is neutral, neither acidic nor basic.) As coolants break down, they produce a little acid which tries to make the pH drop below 7. The base part of the buffer takes the acid away protecting the cooling system from the acids. Once all the buffer is used up, there is no more buffer to control the pH, so the pH will rapidly drop below 7.

Buffer Packages in Two Common Coolants: Dexcool and G-05

In particular, Dexcool controls the pH using at least two different buffers: 2-ethylhexanoic acid/2-ethylhexanoate and sebacic acid/sebacate. The ideal pH for Dexcool is between 8.3-8.6 for a 30-50% mixture. (reference: http://www.acdelco.nichost.ru/files/antifreezedexcool.pdf ) A bottle of pH test strips may have a pH guide, but you cannot go by that guide because every inhibitor/buffer package has a different ideal pH. A bottle may say the coolant is good between pH 9-11. That information for Dexcool is misleading because Dexcool is designed to work at pH 8.5. In fact, if the buffer of Dexcool were to be used up, the pH would drop to below 7. Many coolants use 2-ethylhexanoic acid and are not called Dexcool. Most Prestone coolants have at least some 2-ethylhexanoic acid as the buffer.

Another coolant, G-05, uses a very different buffer system based on borate/boric acid. The borate buffers can maintain the pH anywhere from pH 7.4 to 9.2. Different makes of G-05 may use different proportions of borate buffer, but on average the ideal pH of a G-05 coolant is 8.0. (reference: http://msds.ashland.com/msds-ext/msdsDow...archHC&id=4 , http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/zerex_g05.pdf ).

Why Control pH?

In the times of the iron block, many eons ago, pH was kept quite basic using silicate buffers (the old green coolant). With the switch to aluminum intake manifolds, and even aluminum blocks, there was a need to control the pH around 8.0 or so (not so strongly basic). In fact, as long as your coolant doesn't go below 7, the metals in the cooling system are fairly safe. In many high schools, the chemistry teacher would add some acid to magnesium or calcium metal. You should have seen the metal turn into a white powder and bubbles of hydrogen escape from the experiment. Aluminum and iron, while not nearly so reactive, still react with acids (pH 0-7). The reason they set the target range of 8.0 for modern coolants is the pH is like a slippery slope. The basic portions of the buffers maintain the pH around 8.0 - 9.0 or so. Once the buffer gets used up as the coolant ages, the pH drops rapidly below 8.0 and goes acidic very quickly. If you measure a pH higher than 7.0, it will almost probably be 8.0 and above. You probably won't even measure any pH 7.0 because it will have already dropped below 7.0.

The buffers protect the metals from acids. The acids come from the reaction of glycols and oxygen to produce various acids. This cannot be prevented. ( https://dow-answer.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/5280/~/lttf---thermal-degradation-products-of-eg-and-pg ). The basic part of the buffer system will react with the acids, effectively removing the acids from the cooling system. The chemicals are still there, but not in acid form.

Cooling System Washes

If you chose to use a cooling system flush, they often use an acid to clean up old oxides in the cooling system. Metal oxides in the cooling system can be stuck to the metal surfaces (rust). The acid wash will turn the oxides into a salt which will not stick to the metal surfaces.

If you do not flush out the acid wash properly, you will have two problems. The first is that you will have metallic salts in your coolant which could be potentially abrasive if not removed. Secondly, some of the acids wash will remain in the cooling system and consume the buffer of your new coolant right away. Removing the flushing chemicals is quite difficult and time consuming. I tried the CAT cooling system flush and my coolant really did come out BLACK! Draining and refilling only clears out about 50% of the water in the system. Each fill and drain will simply dilute the flushing chemicals 50% each time: 1st flush is 50%; 2nd is 25%; 3rd is 12.5%; 4th is 6.13%; 5th is 3.06%; 7th is 1.5%; 8th is 0.75%; 9th is 0.38%; 10th is 0.19%. Most buffers make up less than 10% of the pure coolant, so by the time you get your 50:50 mix in the system, your buffer less than 5%. Even after 7 flushes, you still have 1.5% of the old coolant in the system which can significantly reduce the life of your new coolant. In fact, it may be useful to use some pH test strips to ensure the pH of the flushing water is close to 7. After the CAT wash, it took about 8 fill/flush cycles before the flushings were nearly colourless.

NOTE: this method of fill/flush requires that the engine be run for about 1 minute between each fill/flush. This is the ONLY way you will get the lower block flushed out. If the engine is not run between fill/flushes, when you add your coolant in the end, it will turn muddy almost immediately.

Every fill/flush requires the addition of about 2 gallons. 10 fill/flushes would then require at least 20 gallons of fresh water to get the old flushings down to an insignificant percent. So, Stalag was not joking when he said it requires over 20 gallons of distilled water to flush. [i][/i]
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#2728192 - 06/29/13 05:07 AM Re: Engine coolant types and coolant change advice [Re: stalag]
stalag Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 4043
Loc: Columbus, OH
Originally Posted By: Fordiesel69


This step is not optional and must be done. If you choose to ignore this simple diagnostic step, you will be like me and replace your heater core a second time. Buy a digital volt meter from harbor freight or wherever. Place the red lead into the coolant, and the black lead on the negative battery term. Set meter to DC volts. Make sure the range is et to show 0.000 and not just 0.0

If you reading is higher then 0.300 volts DC then flushing is required and not optional. Use motorcraft VC-1 flush. You will need to drive 100 miles for it to clean. Todays flush chemicals are weak for safety and environmental concerns.

If your reading is very high like in 0.500 thru 0.700 you will need to use 2 bottles of flush at the same time for 100 ~ 200 miles, and replace EVERY hose. You cannot clean the rubber hoses at all. No chemical, no brushed, no nothing. They have to be replaced.


I also agree with this. If you have followed the coolant flush procedure I laid out and you still see a voltage differential between the coolant and the negative battery terminal you still have conditions that will cause corrosion and component failure of the coolant system. If you used tap water, tap water itself is conductive. Distilled water because it has no metal salts in it is nonconductive for the most part. If you encounter voltages as stated above replace all coolant system hoses and reflush again as I laid out at the beginning of this thread. Refill with the same coolant as before. If you change coolants you need to follow the additional steps I laid out for a full coolant changeover to a different type.
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#2728198 - 06/29/13 05:35 AM Re: Engine coolant types and coolant change advice [Re: stalag]
White Falcon LS Offline


Posting Addict

Registered: 01/01/02
Posts: 19148
Loc: SoCal
Here's a coolant question since we are on topic - what is the consensus on Toyota Long Life red coolant (not the pink Super Long Life stuff)?

Based on what I've been read, the LL stuff is great for iron blocks with aluminum heads and radiators but the SLL is for aluminum blocks/heads and radiators.
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#2857499 - 08/27/14 09:48 AM Re: Engine coolant types and coolant change advice [Re: stalag]
stalag Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 4043
Loc: Columbus, OH
Hello,

I am adding this due to the content of the information the article contains. It is still my recommendation that if you do go to change your coolant, you still follow the steps I outline in the first post of this thread. In talking with my Lincoln dealer service manager, he has confirmed that Ford is following these recommendations now!!!! So beware, what I posted originally in 2009 is still good operating practice and is followed by car dealers today.

This posted link to the article deals only with car coolants. It does however dovetail with some information I gave back in 2009 from my chemistry background.

Coolant article
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#2883461 - 02/02/15 11:16 PM Re: Engine coolant types and coolant change advice [Re: stalag]
UrbanCowboyDan Offline
Member

Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 232
Loc: Genesee County, New York
Quick question on an old but very informative thread, my local Wal-mart sells coolant known as "Final Charge Global" the bottle says it meets Cat EC-1 specifications. I think it is made by Peak. Is this a good coolant to use, or is it Deathcool like most other Peak and Prestone products? I would be using the same procedure that is outlined at the start of this thread if I were to switch.
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#2883533 - 02/03/15 01:49 PM Re: Engine coolant types and coolant change advice [Re: stalag]
stalag Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 4043
Loc: Columbus, OH
Caterpillars EC-1 specification requires the use of additional additives that do not allow for polymerization in the engine block. However with any coolant change that you do, make sure you follow my coolant change procedure outlined above. In fact, checking with my Lincoln dealer, they report that Ford has adopted the same recommendations that Caterpillar uses which are outlined in the thread above.
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