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#2008877 - 03/23/10 11:45 PM fuel pressure low?
XxScooby Offline
Member

Registered: 03/18/10
Posts: 395
Loc: Charleston,SC
after changing my fuel filter with the right filter i started having problems above 45mph its hesitating i went to ford and they said my fuel pressure was low or fuel pressure and supply down is exactly what they said and that i need to replace my fuel pump why would replacing my fuel filter do this.

any suggestions would be great
_________________________
Casey



1999 Crown Victoria Police Interceptor 143,xxx, new headlight assembly, 20% window tint all around, flowmaster delta 40's with 3" marauder style tips. and some ghetto autozone hubcaps smile

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#2008979 - 03/24/10 04:39 AM Re: fuel pressure low? [Re: XxScooby]
stalag Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 2797
Loc: Columbus, OH
Replacing the fuel filter removed a restriction. Your fuel pump was compromised due to the restriction in the old fuel filter. Consequently the problem is now showing because the fuel pump is working into a lower load and is having trouble keeping up. If you had not replaced the fuel filter you still would have had failure in short order. It is just that the fuel pump would have failed without warning. Fuel pumps working into a restriction work at a much higher load and as a result will wear much sooner than a pump working into a low restriction load.

Stalag
_________________________
Stalag;___________Just for Rizzo I am posting this in my sig. Coolants
2001 Lincoln Town Car Cartier L, 1997 Mercury Grand Marquis (extinct)
On my LTC the following mods/upgrades were added. Heinous motorsport control arms, Command Automotive SD-1 rotors, Calipers by Goldlinebrakes.com in silver with Hawk HPS pads, MSD COP's. MZT is also applied with programming from BOC. j-mod is now done. Final rebuild of transmission done by Gearstar.

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#2009419 - 03/24/10 05:40 PM Re: fuel pressure low? [Re: stalag]
XxScooby Offline
Member

Registered: 03/18/10
Posts: 395
Loc: Charleston,SC
thx for the info man i appreciate it
_________________________
Casey



1999 Crown Victoria Police Interceptor 143,xxx, new headlight assembly, 20% window tint all around, flowmaster delta 40's with 3" marauder style tips. and some ghetto autozone hubcaps smile

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#2009520 - 03/24/10 08:21 PM Re: fuel pressure low? [Re: XxScooby]
Crazyskate6969 Offline
n00b

Registered: 03/21/10
Posts: 26
Loc: North Dakota
There is another possibility to this problem as well. I did that and Ford told me the same thing. It turned out to be my Fuel Pressure Regulator, I had decent fuel pressure up until I went above 50 mph then the car would stall and slow to about 30, then would be ok for a little while then would keep doing the same. I bought a new pump even though I had checked the fuel pressure and it was fine at idle. Never did install it though because I read on the forum here someone mentioned the fuel pressure regulator in another post. So I swapped that out first and immediately saw a difference.

Scooby is your car stuttering if you rev it while it is in park?

Have you checked the fuel pressure with a gauge?
_________________________
1997 Mercury Grand Marquis 4.6L SOHC
MAN THE TANK NEEDS SOME WORK!!!

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#2009611 - 03/24/10 09:54 PM Re: fuel pressure low? [Re: XxScooby]
Big_Bad_Joe Offline
Poobah

Registered: 12/12/01
Posts: 8408
Loc: Rochester NY
year model etc would be helpful when asking tech questions

did you put the filter on the right direction and did you install the clips to seal the lines> do you smell fuel?

could be the filter is backwards....
_________________________
2006 LX with HPPBlue, Light Camel Interior,Magnaflow Exhaust,PI Zip Tube
Underdrives from ADTR.net
Pioneer AVIC X930BT Nav system, JL xD400/4amp, JL Speakers, Audiovox backup camera

2000 HPP RESURECTION RIP 8/17/2012 died in Dayton OH

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#2009986 - 03/25/10 11:32 AM Re: fuel pressure low? [Re: Big_Bad_Joe]
abelouso Offline
Member

Registered: 01/06/07
Posts: 234
Loc: Inland Empire, CA, US
In addition to filter being backwards, I read somewhere that on the returnless fuel systems, before installing the filter you have to soak it in fuel. It is needed to ensure the filter element is "ready" to pass fuel through. If not done, the instant pressure generated by the fuel pump (40psi) into a dry filter may dislogde the filter element and pieces of it may end up anywhere downstream in the fuel system.
_________________________
---
2003 Ford CVPI
Sasha

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#2010002 - 03/25/10 11:49 AM Re: fuel pressure low? [Re: abelouso]
scooter Offline

Member

Registered: 05/17/03
Posts: 315
Loc: SE Wisconsin
Hi there,

I've been having some trouble with long crank of the engine when starting it for the first time of the day.

Normal gauge readings for the 2003 are:
Engine off (key just before starting) is 20-60psi;
Engine running 25-40psi.

I rented a gauge from Autozone deposit of $150 they will let you use it for a month or so, after which if you don't return it it's yours, no deposit refund. Easy to use full instructions, Actron brand kit which I believe is a good one.

I never have read anything about immersing the fuel filter to get gasoline into it before installing.

I would check the fuel pressure regulator as mentioned by another poster. My pressure was low with the engine off test.

I think I will try the same checking other parts before replacing the pump and pray it is not the pump so it is not so expensive to replace that.

Hope I helped you somewhat,
Scott
_________________________
2014 Ford Fusion SE 2.0L Turbo
Previously Owned: 2003 Crown Victoria LX w/Handling Package (RAR 3.27)88,000 miles
Scangauge onboard
Amateur radio operator
Repairs: Transmission Rebuild;Fuel pump;Hood lift supports;A/C Accumulator & recharge;LF window regulator;LF window motor;LF door lock actuator;LF master window switch;Blower control module;Rust on door bottoms w/POR-15;Air Suspension compressor. Email me if I can help you with any questions on these repairs.

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#2010202 - 03/25/10 04:21 PM Re: fuel pressure low? [Re: scooter]
abelouso Offline
Member

Registered: 01/06/07
Posts: 234
Loc: Inland Empire, CA, US
The manual says to prime fuel pump for 8 seconds before taking Fuel Pressure reading. With Engine off (assuming you have 2003 MY)and fully primed fuel pressure you should read around 40psi, with no more than 5psi fall-off within 60 secs.

With KOER - you pressure guage should read below 40psi (actual reading depends on your altitude and the "health" of your vacuum system. If you unplug the vacuum line going into fuel pressure sensor, to pressure should rise to its nominal 40psi and not change significantly with RPM and/or load.

MY 2003 does not have conventional vacuum actuated Fuel Pressure Regulator - the pressure is controlled by the computer (PCM). However, it does have pulse damper that smothes sudden pressure spikes. After you checked your pressure and it is indeed low, run the engine for 10 sec, key off, run for anohter 10 secs, key off. Disconnect the vacuum line to the damper and inspect for fuel in the vacuum line. If fuel is present, the diaphram raptured and that's where you pressure is lost.
From that point on - you'd need to check your injectors, after which it would be the fuel pump problem...

As to soaking fuel filter - google "returnless fuel systems", there are several articles explaining principles of operation of such systems, one of which (if I remember correctly) did mention soaking fuel filter.

Please post what you've found. Thank you.
_________________________
---
2003 Ford CVPI
Sasha

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#2010299 - 03/25/10 06:24 PM Re: fuel pressure low? [Re: abelouso]
scooter Offline

Member

Registered: 05/17/03
Posts: 315
Loc: SE Wisconsin
Hi Sasha:

For me, I have returned the gauge already.

The figures for normal pressure are from the Ford DVD.

Now, in order to connect the gauge to the Shrader valve, I relieved pressure as I stated cranking without the fuel pump relay in.

When I checked the engine off key-on fuel pressure "priming the pump" it was low. However, as you state the pump should be cycled a few times since pressure was released to attach the gauge. Ford doesn't state how many times. The wherring sound from the pump last about 3-4 seconds, so to prime it for 8 seconds would take 2-3 KOEO cyclings.

I do recall checking how fast the reading when down after turning the engine off, and it was within the range you stated.

I will try the vacuum test like you said.

I an not going to replace a fuel pump on speculation since the car is running okay otherwise, and I am able to get a shorter engine turnover time when I turn the key on and wait until the dash lights go through their check and then start it up.


So as of right now I don't know what is actually going on with it if anything.

Thanks for the input.
Scott
_________________________
2014 Ford Fusion SE 2.0L Turbo
Previously Owned: 2003 Crown Victoria LX w/Handling Package (RAR 3.27)88,000 miles
Scangauge onboard
Amateur radio operator
Repairs: Transmission Rebuild;Fuel pump;Hood lift supports;A/C Accumulator & recharge;LF window regulator;LF window motor;LF door lock actuator;LF master window switch;Blower control module;Rust on door bottoms w/POR-15;Air Suspension compressor. Email me if I can help you with any questions on these repairs.

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#2010364 - 03/25/10 07:55 PM Re: fuel pressure low? [Re: scooter]
XxScooby Offline
Member

Registered: 03/18/10
Posts: 395
Loc: Charleston,SC
my car is a 1999 crown victoria PI with 133,000 miles and i have the filter on right and the arrow is facing towards the engine. also im starting to have problems other than at 50mph it took me longer than normal to start it today im thankful that you guyz are trying to help unfortunately i dont have any money right now to purchase or rent a fuel pressure gauge so a week from today i know a mechanic that will assist me further. as far as the fuel pump regulator im not sure yet because the only thing i know is that ford told me my fuel pressure is low and they recommended me to change the fuel pump and the shop that changed my fuel filter before i had problems do it for a living on all kinds of police cars and highway patrol cars i think they would know how to change it correctly. btw i had a fuel injector flush too i didnt have any problems untill right after they changed the filter and i have no codes what should i do should i go ahead and buy a pump or should i wait untill next week and let that guy check it out some more
_________________________
Casey



1999 Crown Victoria Police Interceptor 143,xxx, new headlight assembly, 20% window tint all around, flowmaster delta 40's with 3" marauder style tips. and some ghetto autozone hubcaps smile

Top
#2010432 - 03/25/10 09:28 PM Re: fuel pressure low? [Re: XxScooby]
abelouso Offline
Member

Registered: 01/06/07
Posts: 234
Loc: Inland Empire, CA, US
XxScooby,
If I were you, I'd wait on replacing the fuel pump until you have confirmed independetly of the Ford Dealer that it is the fuel pump. It's the "second opinion" type thing. If the car hesitates at higher speeds - it is an indication of a fuel supply problem, but there could be dozens of other causes. Wait until at least next week for your friend to help you... Then decide.
_________________________
---
2003 Ford CVPI
Sasha

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#2010436 - 03/25/10 09:34 PM Re: fuel pressure low? [Re: abelouso]
XxScooby Offline
Member

Registered: 03/18/10
Posts: 395
Loc: Charleston,SC
thanks sasha thats what ill do...
_________________________
Casey



1999 Crown Victoria Police Interceptor 143,xxx, new headlight assembly, 20% window tint all around, flowmaster delta 40's with 3" marauder style tips. and some ghetto autozone hubcaps smile

Top
#2010442 - 03/25/10 09:38 PM Re: fuel pressure low? [Re: abelouso]
abelouso Offline
Member

Registered: 01/06/07
Posts: 234
Loc: Inland Empire, CA, US
Hi scooter,
I just looked up possible causes for hard start in the factory manual (PC/ED, Section 3, Chart 2) - fuel system concerns are second check, with the first one being coils and plugs (Secondary Ignition System). Then it goes onto Ehaust, PCV, EVAP, Air Intake, Starting System, dirty MAF and IAC...

I agree with priming the fuel pump for 2-3 times to get the pressure built up. How low was your pressure as indicated by pressure gage at KOEO?
_________________________
---
2003 Ford CVPI
Sasha

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#2010825 - 03/26/10 11:28 AM Re: fuel pressure low? [Re: abelouso]
scooter Offline

Member

Registered: 05/17/03
Posts: 315
Loc: SE Wisconsin

Sasha,

Right after depressurizing the fuel system, Key-off-Engine-Off measurement was nil after first fuel pump cycling.

After recyling about 4 times, the system pressure went up 10-30 psi, and after many recycles, I got the pressure way up to 40-50 psi.

Bleed off or pressure down after running the engine (which showed a steady 30 psi), was about 30 down to 25 over about 60 seconds. I can't remember how low it eventually went as I really wasn't focusing on that, sorry to say.

I guess my question is, does the fuel system remain charged (pressurized)for 24 hours or more in anticipation of the next start?

I hope this info is what you were asking for. I really think that a mechanic with the instruments necessary to carry out the test you mentioned would have to check everything out before condemning the fuel pump. But, it does seem to me that they are quick to blame things on the fuel pump which is probably the culprit most of the time.

If it comes down to needing a pump, I can get a good deal on one from a Ford distributor and let a mechanic install it. I know sometimes that won't install parts supplied by customers. But I can save a whole lot by avoided their markup. They hit you two ways, labor and a pretty good mark-up on the parts.

I would encourage people looking for Ford or other OEM parts to try and find a distributor as their prices are usually about 25 to 30% off over-the-counter. They will sell the the public, but are restricted by agreement not to sell at the wholesale level.

Sorry, a little long, but I wanted to get that info in about distributors.

Thanks much...Scott
_________________________
2014 Ford Fusion SE 2.0L Turbo
Previously Owned: 2003 Crown Victoria LX w/Handling Package (RAR 3.27)88,000 miles
Scangauge onboard
Amateur radio operator
Repairs: Transmission Rebuild;Fuel pump;Hood lift supports;A/C Accumulator & recharge;LF window regulator;LF window motor;LF door lock actuator;LF master window switch;Blower control module;Rust on door bottoms w/POR-15;Air Suspension compressor. Email me if I can help you with any questions on these repairs.

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#2010921 - 03/26/10 01:42 PM Re: fuel pressure low? [Re: scooter]
abelouso Offline
Member

Registered: 01/06/07
Posts: 234
Loc: Inland Empire, CA, US
Scooter,
Thank you for the info. That's exactly what I was looking for to be able to compare with my data. 30psi in the running engine is correct with vacuum line connected to fuel pressure sensor. Mine does the same. However, the fact that it took you several KOEOs to bring it to 40psi does seem unusual. It means the fuel pump is weak and not able to build up the pressure fast enough - which may explain your hard start problem. In this case another symptom should be at hard acceleration (high fuel demand) that car would stumble and mis-fire....

In my car fuel pressure drops near 0 if the car sits for couple hours, but immediately comes to 40psi with a single KOEO as monitored by PCM FRP PID.
_________________________
---
2003 Ford CVPI
Sasha

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