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#4090242 - 01/05/21 01:32 PM 1990 CV Brake Issues
seebeexee Offline
Rookie

Registered: 08/17/15
Posts: 91
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah
I just acquired a very nice 1990 CV LX with 33,000 original miles. It is very clean and hasn't been driven much in the last decade or so, and I've got the records to prove it. I've done a complete exhaust system from headers to tailpipe and various other tune-up-related items. The car runs, drives, and shifts very nicely now.



The one problem I'm trying to sort out now is the brakes.

Ever since the test drive, the brakes have behaved a little weird. The first thing I noticed is that the rear brakes lock up under moderate braking. I'm able to control it, but it's an issue. Also, the brakes were spongy with no external fluid leaks. I bled the system thoroughly with no change in brake feel. Considering the car's age and lack of driving/maintenance in the recent past, I opted to install a new master cylinder, front calipers and pads, and brake flex hoses up front. Despite bench bleeding the master cylinder and properly/thoroughly bleeding the complete brake system after the parts install, I still have a spongy brake pedal and rear brakes that lock up too easily. I've adjusted the parking brake and rear brake shoes and they appear correct.
I've got wheel cylinders, shoes, drums, and a rear brake hardware kit including springs on their way that I plan to install for good measure, but I'm frustrated with the spongy pedal. It also seems the brake pedal wants to sink very slowly, but I still don't see an external leak. What's the likelihood the new master cylinder is bad out of the box?

Any other suggestions about what to do to fix the brake issues described above?

The last point of concern I have is the brake pressure control valve (AKA proportioning valve) that screws into the master cylinder. If it has gone bad, that might explain why the rear brakes want to lock up by allowing too much hydraulic pressure to the rears. Does anyone have a part number for that particular part? I can only find the ones for the trucks/vans, and I don't know if they're the same part for our cars. I've included a picture of the part in question below for reference.



Thanks in advance for the help.


Edited by seebeexee (01/05/21 02:50 PM)
Edit Reason: Clarification
_________________________
1989 LTD Crown Victoria LX (Blue)
Garage Dweller
37,250 original miles at purchase
43,000 current mileage
Shorty headers, Dr. Gas X-pipe and mufflers, full custom 2.5" dual exhaust system built by me
1990 LTD Crown Victoria LX (Pink)
Occasional Driver
33,003 original miles at purchase
40,000 current mileage
Shorty headers, factory-style 2" H-pipe, fake mufflers, factory-style 2" dual tail pipes
1990 LTD Crown Victoria LX (White)
"The Beater"
152,000 original miles at purchase
171,000 current mileage
Equal-length shorty headers, Dr. Gas X-pipe, fake mufflers, custom 2.5" front half dual exhaust system built by me, factory-style 2" dual tail pipes
Factory aluminum driveshaft and limited-slip rear end


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#4090250 - 01/05/21 03:25 PM Re: 1990 CV Brake Issues [Re: seebeexee]
GLR Offline

Rookie

Registered: 07/24/08
Posts: 81
Loc: NY and VA
Another possibility on the rear brakes, might be the axle seals leaking on to the brake shoes causing locking up. In most cases only one side locks up though. Make sure the rear axle vent is clear (located at rear brake line junction, it's a rubber hose attached to the junction hold down bolt.
_________________________
1989 Wagon, 1989 LTD CV, 1997 CV, 2009 GM

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#4090278 - 01/05/21 09:11 PM Re: 1990 CV Brake Issues [Re: seebeexee]
Old_Guy_Stu Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 04/28/19
Posts: 3562
Loc: Cleveland, OH
Usually the first failure point is the wheel cylinders, since the water that always (somehow) gets into the system sinks to the lowest point, and the iron cylinders love to rust. If the car's been sitting a few years, they need to at least be inspected.

Pedal sinking: If you're losing fluid, you've got a leak. If you're not, it's just air in the system.

Might as well inspect the tubing while you're under the car. It's 30 years old.
_________________________

1988 CVLX Formal Roof (Love Boat) POTM July '19, Aug '20, Oct '21, Feb '23, 64K
E-code lights w/ relays, LEDs w/ switchbacks, 15x8 Ansen slots w/ 255/60 BFG's, Kenwood stereo, various hacks.
This, of course, was merely the semi-delirious notion of a fever-patient, but I remember that it struck me at the time as being eminently practical and feasible.

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#4091722 - 01/14/21 11:03 AM Re: 1990 CV Brake Issues [Re: seebeexee]
1990CrownVic Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 268
Loc: Chile
Originally Posted By seebeexee
I just acquired a very nice 1990 CV LX with 33,000 original miles. It is very clean and hasn't been driven much in the last decade or so, and I've got the records to prove it. I've done a complete exhaust system from headers to tailpipe and various other tune-up-related items. The car runs, drives, and shifts very nicely now.



The one problem I'm trying to sort out now is the brakes.

Ever since the test drive, the brakes have behaved a little weird. The first thing I noticed is that the rear brakes lock up under moderate braking. I'm able to control it, but it's an issue. Also, the brakes were spongy with no external fluid leaks. I bled the system thoroughly with no change in brake feel. Considering the car's age and lack of driving/maintenance in the recent past, I opted to install a new master cylinder, front calipers and pads, and brake flex hoses up front. Despite bench bleeding the master cylinder and properly/thoroughly bleeding the complete brake system after the parts install, I still have a spongy brake pedal and rear brakes that lock up too easily. I've adjusted the parking brake and rear brake shoes and they appear correct.
I've got wheel cylinders, shoes, drums, and a rear brake hardware kit including springs on their way that I plan to install for good measure, but I'm frustrated with the spongy pedal. It also seems the brake pedal wants to sink very slowly, but I still don't see an external leak. What's the likelihood the new master cylinder is bad out of the box?

Any other suggestions about what to do to fix the brake issues described above?

The last point of concern I have is the brake pressure control valve (AKA proportioning valve) that screws into the master cylinder. If it has gone bad, that might explain why the rear brakes want to lock up by allowing too much hydraulic pressure to the rears. Does anyone have a part number for that particular part? I can only find the ones for the trucks/vans, and I don't know if they're the same part for our cars. I've included a picture of the part in question below for reference.



Thanks in advance for the help.


Nice car. Congrats.

Just FYI, the only way to get a new of those little valves is to buy a new Ford MC. Of course there are alternatives (Wilwood I think), but if you want the original set up, they come with the Ford MC. I bought one (just to have a spare) 1 or 2 years ago, from ebay. They are rare, but not nonexistant.
_________________________
1990 Ford Crown Victoria LX: New water pump/new air pump/New Visteon radiator/Transmission oil cooler/ New heater core/hoses/belts/No more vinyl roof/New valve cover gaskets/New ignition module/New ignition coil/Completely rebuilt front end/Headlamps: Bosch H4 with Osram 60/55w bulbs and Cibie H1 with Osram 55w bulbs/Suspension: Front: new Moog rubber bushings, heavy duty civilian coil springs, Monroe SensaTrac load adjusting shock absorbers, wagon sway bar and poly bushings and endlinks. Rear: new Raybestos rubber bushings, sedan cargo coils, Monroe Max Air shock absorbers and police sway bar/3.55 gears and Dual Exhaust.
Next Project: HO Conversion.
2002 Ford Crown Victoria Base. Suspension. Front:Completely rebuilt front end, rubber control arms bushings, Police coil springs, Addco sway bar, Bilstein shock absorbers, and poly bushings and endlinks. Rear: Addco sway bar, Bilstein shock absorbers and cargo coils/Dual Exhaust/3.55 gears.


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#4091732 - 01/14/21 12:39 PM Re: 1990 CV Brake Issues [Re: 1990CrownVic]
seebeexee Offline
Rookie

Registered: 08/17/15
Posts: 91
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah
Originally Posted By 1990CrownVic


Nice car. Congrats.

Just FYI, the only way to get a new of those little valves is to buy a new Ford MC. Of course there are alternatives (Wilwood I think), but if you want the original set up, they come with the Ford MC. I bought one (just to have a spare) 1 or 2 years ago, from ebay. They are rare, but not nonexistant.



Thanks! And thanks for the info about the valve. It's sad because the valves for the trucks are readily available new, but the two local dealers I called can't even find a part number for the one for these cars. I pulled a couple valves off of F-150s at the junkyard the other day just to check fitment, and just as I suspected, they don't fit the CV master cylinder. The threads are different. Probably a different pressure spring in it as well, but I was curious.

Do you happen to have the Ford part number for the master cylinder assembly you bought that comes with the valve? I wouldn't mind picking up one or two if I can find them to keep as spares.

I'm not ready to say definitively that the vale is part of the problem. Rear brake parts arrived yesterday, so once those are installed, the car will have a completely new brake system excluding the booster and hard brake lines. If I've still got brake issues after all that is installed and bled, I'll have to reassess.
_________________________
1989 LTD Crown Victoria LX (Blue)
Garage Dweller
37,250 original miles at purchase
43,000 current mileage
Shorty headers, Dr. Gas X-pipe and mufflers, full custom 2.5" dual exhaust system built by me
1990 LTD Crown Victoria LX (Pink)
Occasional Driver
33,003 original miles at purchase
40,000 current mileage
Shorty headers, factory-style 2" H-pipe, fake mufflers, factory-style 2" dual tail pipes
1990 LTD Crown Victoria LX (White)
"The Beater"
152,000 original miles at purchase
171,000 current mileage
Equal-length shorty headers, Dr. Gas X-pipe, fake mufflers, custom 2.5" front half dual exhaust system built by me, factory-style 2" dual tail pipes
Factory aluminum driveshaft and limited-slip rear end


Top
#4092248 - 01/18/21 12:20 PM Re: 1990 CV Brake Issues [Re: seebeexee]
1990CrownVic Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 268
Loc: Chile
Yes, of course! The PN is FOAZ-2140-B

And I have more: if you want to install a new MC for your 1990, here´s someone in ebay who´s selling 2 of them:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-Ford-Master-Cylinder-FOAZ-2140-B/322986166867

In the pics you can see the (in)famous valve lol

I'm assuming that your car has the 5.0 engine, because the 5.8 use a different MC.

That´s the seller that I bought from the one from my 1990 LX.
_________________________
1990 Ford Crown Victoria LX: New water pump/new air pump/New Visteon radiator/Transmission oil cooler/ New heater core/hoses/belts/No more vinyl roof/New valve cover gaskets/New ignition module/New ignition coil/Completely rebuilt front end/Headlamps: Bosch H4 with Osram 60/55w bulbs and Cibie H1 with Osram 55w bulbs/Suspension: Front: new Moog rubber bushings, heavy duty civilian coil springs, Monroe SensaTrac load adjusting shock absorbers, wagon sway bar and poly bushings and endlinks. Rear: new Raybestos rubber bushings, sedan cargo coils, Monroe Max Air shock absorbers and police sway bar/3.55 gears and Dual Exhaust.
Next Project: HO Conversion.
2002 Ford Crown Victoria Base. Suspension. Front:Completely rebuilt front end, rubber control arms bushings, Police coil springs, Addco sway bar, Bilstein shock absorbers, and poly bushings and endlinks. Rear: Addco sway bar, Bilstein shock absorbers and cargo coils/Dual Exhaust/3.55 gears.


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#4092298 - 01/18/21 07:30 PM Re: 1990 CV Brake Issues [Re: 1990CrownVic]
seebeexee Offline
Rookie

Registered: 08/17/15
Posts: 91
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah
Originally Posted By 1990CrownVic
Yes, of course! The PN is FOAZ-2140-B

And I have more: if you want to install a new MC for your 1990, here´s someone in ebay who´s selling 2 of them:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-Ford-Master-Cylinder-FOAZ-2140-B/322986166867

In the pics you can see the (in)famous valve lol

I'm assuming that your car has the 5.0 engine, because the 5.8 use a different MC.

That´s the seller that I bought from the one from my 1990 LX.



Thank you! Yes, I've got the 5.0L, and I just ordered that master cylinder from the link you provided. I'll feel better having that as a spare, for sure. If I had found that master cylinder with the valve included, I would have gone that route rather than the new master cylinder I just put on that required I transfer the old valve over.

The rest of my brake parts have arrived, so I'm going to get them all put on, the system bled, etc., to see if my problems go away. The way I see it is that brakes maintenance is a good idea for a 30-year old car that has averaged less than 1,100 miles a year anyway.
_________________________
1989 LTD Crown Victoria LX (Blue)
Garage Dweller
37,250 original miles at purchase
43,000 current mileage
Shorty headers, Dr. Gas X-pipe and mufflers, full custom 2.5" dual exhaust system built by me
1990 LTD Crown Victoria LX (Pink)
Occasional Driver
33,003 original miles at purchase
40,000 current mileage
Shorty headers, factory-style 2" H-pipe, fake mufflers, factory-style 2" dual tail pipes
1990 LTD Crown Victoria LX (White)
"The Beater"
152,000 original miles at purchase
171,000 current mileage
Equal-length shorty headers, Dr. Gas X-pipe, fake mufflers, custom 2.5" front half dual exhaust system built by me, factory-style 2" dual tail pipes
Factory aluminum driveshaft and limited-slip rear end


Top
#4092796 - 01/22/21 03:49 PM Re: 1990 CV Brake Issues [Re: seebeexee]
1990CrownVic Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 268
Loc: Chile
Originally Posted By seebeexee
Originally Posted By 1990CrownVic
Yes, of course! The PN is FOAZ-2140-B

And I have more: if you want to install a new MC for your 1990, here´s someone in ebay who´s selling 2 of them:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-Ford-Master-Cylinder-FOAZ-2140-B/322986166867

In the pics you can see the (in)famous valve lol

I'm assuming that your car has the 5.0 engine, because the 5.8 use a different MC.

That´s the seller that I bought from the one from my 1990 LX.



Thank you! Yes, I've got the 5.0L, and I just ordered that master cylinder from the link you provided. I'll feel better having that as a spare, for sure. If I had found that master cylinder with the valve included, I would have gone that route rather than the new master cylinder I just put on that required I transfer the old valve over.

The rest of my brake parts have arrived, so I'm going to get them all put on, the system bled, etc., to see if my problems go away. The way I see it is that brakes maintenance is a good idea for a 30-year old car that has averaged less than 1,100 miles a year anyway.


You're welcome!

As a side note, I had similar problems with my car, but she was locking the front brakes. I replaced rotors and drums, brake pads and shoes, the hidraulic hoses, and some other little components, and no more problems with locking the brakes. And still has the original valve. However, I had to replace the original MC some years after that brake job.
_________________________
1990 Ford Crown Victoria LX: New water pump/new air pump/New Visteon radiator/Transmission oil cooler/ New heater core/hoses/belts/No more vinyl roof/New valve cover gaskets/New ignition module/New ignition coil/Completely rebuilt front end/Headlamps: Bosch H4 with Osram 60/55w bulbs and Cibie H1 with Osram 55w bulbs/Suspension: Front: new Moog rubber bushings, heavy duty civilian coil springs, Monroe SensaTrac load adjusting shock absorbers, wagon sway bar and poly bushings and endlinks. Rear: new Raybestos rubber bushings, sedan cargo coils, Monroe Max Air shock absorbers and police sway bar/3.55 gears and Dual Exhaust.
Next Project: HO Conversion.
2002 Ford Crown Victoria Base. Suspension. Front:Completely rebuilt front end, rubber control arms bushings, Police coil springs, Addco sway bar, Bilstein shock absorbers, and poly bushings and endlinks. Rear: Addco sway bar, Bilstein shock absorbers and cargo coils/Dual Exhaust/3.55 gears.


Top
#4097070 - 02/16/21 05:40 PM Re: 1990 CV Brake Issues [Re: 1990CrownVic]
seebeexee Offline
Rookie

Registered: 08/17/15
Posts: 91
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah
Originally Posted By 1990CrownVic

You're welcome!

As a side note, I had similar problems with my car, but she was locking the front brakes. I replaced rotors and drums, brake pads and shoes, the hidraulic hoses, and some other little components, and no more problems with locking the brakes. And still has the original valve. However, I had to replace the original MC some years after that brake job.


OK, finally getting back to this thread. I purchased and installed the OEM master cylinder with included proportioning valve. Bled it, installed it, and bled the system: no change. Spongy pedal and very slight pedal drop. Obviously, spongy pedal=air in system (or ballooning hose), and pedal drop=leak, either internal or external.

I installed the rear brakes flex hose from body to axle, and things greatly improved, but not completely. The fitting going to the driver's side rear brakes from the junction in the rear flex hose had been recently partially-rounded off (likely by the previous owner trying to fix the brakes before selling the car). There were fresh chew marks on the nut fitting. Anyway, I got it off, replaced, the line, and decided to try getting it back tight before just going out and replacing it. It took a few tries to get it tight enough to not leak, but it's sealed. I decided to go through and tighten every fitting in the system just to make sure. Then, after bleeding the system one more time, things are all good. No more sinking or spongy pedal.

It appears the majority of the issues I was having came from the bad/old rear flex hose and some fittings that needed to be just a bit tighter. Closer inspection showed several other fittings with fresh chew marks from the previous owner, though no others were rounded.

It's nice to have that sorted. Thanks for all the comments.
_________________________
1989 LTD Crown Victoria LX (Blue)
Garage Dweller
37,250 original miles at purchase
43,000 current mileage
Shorty headers, Dr. Gas X-pipe and mufflers, full custom 2.5" dual exhaust system built by me
1990 LTD Crown Victoria LX (Pink)
Occasional Driver
33,003 original miles at purchase
40,000 current mileage
Shorty headers, factory-style 2" H-pipe, fake mufflers, factory-style 2" dual tail pipes
1990 LTD Crown Victoria LX (White)
"The Beater"
152,000 original miles at purchase
171,000 current mileage
Equal-length shorty headers, Dr. Gas X-pipe, fake mufflers, custom 2.5" front half dual exhaust system built by me, factory-style 2" dual tail pipes
Factory aluminum driveshaft and limited-slip rear end


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