Inflated P71 Auction Prices

Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/07/21 02:21 PM

Don't know what the deal is with these post-covid online police auctions, but some of these closing prices are laughable.
Take a look through these complete govdeals listings for Knoxville, TN PD. Most of the vics are on the 2nd page.
I'm seeing these dirty 100k+ mile patrol cars with incomplete, trashed interiors going for $2500-3K+.
Item F21345 has duct tape holding the trunk lid closed, sold for $2800.

I think the most ridiculous prices are for the cars with mechanical issues or collision damage.
Item #F21191 has a slipping transmission, sold for $1700.
Item F21360 is non-driving and heavily parted out, sold for $1100

Item F21417 is completely totalled in the front end, sold for $1100.

Item F21424 is non-running and disassembled, sold for $1000.
It makes no sense to me. Before covid, knoxville held bi-monthly, in person auctions. Many of these cars would have closed far short of $1000. It seems the lucrative public market for these cars has finally found the public auctions, thanks to covid.
Afraid to say the $600 CVN price is now a distant memory.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/08/21 12:17 AM

I can confirm that I'm seeing the same thing out here in the West. I patrol all Crown Vic auctions on four websites west of the Front Range and I'm seeing them go up. I used to be able to find good P71's under 100K miles for $2000. A similar worn black and white would be a grand. Now I'm seeing units I don't even like go over $3000 at auction.

I just scanned one site for sold Crown Vics within 800 miles of my house in the last 60 days. 5 sold for more than $3500, another 6 for more than $2000. The top dog was a 2008 Orange County SAP with a crack on the front fascia, 98K miles, only 397 hours, very clean. So a good car, but worth $4600 at auction with another 10% on top of that?

The bottom car I would have considered was a white Kansas 2005 P71 in good shape with 130K miles that sold for $2K at auction. Not bad at all, but two years ago I got the same car in better shape with only 55K miles for that price.

I think the culprit is the internet. Young folks are following the "Best used car buys under $5000" recommendations they find on Youtube. They can't find good camry's or civics, so they turn to the Vic. The last two buyers of my used Vics were girls, aged 18 and 21.

Still, it's possible to find good cars. At Christmas I bought a 2004 p71 SAP with 104K for $2000 and just today I picked up a fine 2004 Sport with 111K for $2500 from the local want ads. Seller didn't know what he had.
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/08/21 12:24 PM

Prices for nice low mileage ones ones have been going up for a while because people who were buying them new or almost new before are willing to pay up for a good car. But it seems like a lot of flippers are taking advantage of that now too and buying up the junk ones more then ever. Maybe the pandemic is starting to have an effect too with people over bidding on cars they haven't properly looked at yet or people with more time to kill then before.
Posted by: Huhnigan

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/08/21 12:42 PM

I feel like the Panther platform has found new fame across youtube too. Several high-profile car youtubers are singing the praises of the P71 especially for how fun/reliable/mod-able/affordable they are.
Posted by: CrystalPistol

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/08/21 12:47 PM

It was long due. Market is just adjusting the balance of "supply vs demand". Prices were low when supply was higher, now supply is lower but demand is still up there. One of the draws is a 1998 looks pretty much like a 2012, toughness, ease of repair, comfort, safety ... it's all there.
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/08/21 04:00 PM

I think you guys are right. The internet is getting young people more into panthers, and now the public listings are more accessible than ever, with tons of people bored online with nothing to do besides bid these cars up. Especially now that the auction supply is getting scarce.
Just makes me wish I bought a stockpile of these cars while the auction prices were low. Flipping a p71 to make a buck was too easy, it couldn't last forever.
Perhaps its time to start buying chargers...they can't touch the reliability and durability of the panther though.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/08/21 09:19 PM

I would agree with you... except that Chargers are Dodge products. Since I'm always perusing cop Vics at auction, I can't help but see all the Chargers at auction too. They are invariably shot out by 100,000 miles. About half the time these auctions will also post the fleet service records on the cars being sold. You get one for a 100K Vic, there's nothing on it besides oil changes, tires and brake pads. You get one for a Charger and the control arms and tie rods have been changed at least once, maybe twice. Power steering pump probably changed. And if it's a hemi, it's got the lethal hemi tick, meaning cams and lifters shot. Check engine lights are always on.

I'll only buy the V6's, never the hemi and even then I put in far more money in them than I ever have to put in on P71's. Tahoes, Explorerceptors are both much safer bets. But nothing is as bulletproof as the Vic.
Posted by: a_d_a_m

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/09/21 08:05 AM

Originally Posted By CrystalPistol
It was long due.
On this we agree.


I'm shocked at what prices have done since I bought the 2010 a year ago. If the local listings are any indication, I could almost double what I paid and come up with what is apparently a "reasonable" asking price.
Posted by: Huhnigan

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/09/21 03:22 PM

Another thing I find interesting. There is no price difference between a retired police interceptor and a loaded Grand Marquis of the same year. So I definitely think the craze is centered around the P71. I think across the entire Panther platform the the P71 is fetching top dollar (with the exception of the Marauder obviously). You can get way more car/$$$ if you shop a GMQ or TC. But the P71 is what people are after.
Posted by: TheNarrator

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/09/21 05:37 PM

Originally Posted By Huhnigan
Another thing I find interesting. There is no price difference between a retired police interceptor and a loaded Grand Marquis of the same year. So I definitely think the craze is centered around the P71. I think across the entire Panther platform the the P71 is fetching top dollar (with the exception of the Marauder obviously). You can get way more car/$$$ if you shop a GMQ or TC. But the P71 is what people are after.

Probably because most people don't know that the GMQ exists and the Crown Vic name is more well known.
Posted by: ClayBelt

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/09/21 08:19 PM

Originally Posted By Rainbowpizza
Originally Posted By Huhnigan
Another thing I find interesting. There is no price difference between a retired police interceptor and a loaded Grand Marquis of the same year. So I definitely think the craze is centered around the P71. I think across the entire Panther platform the the P71 is fetching top dollar (with the exception of the Marauder obviously). You can get way more car/$$$ if you shop a GMQ or TC. But the P71 is what people are after.

Probably because most people don't know that the GMQ exists and the Crown Vic name is more well known.


More likely they’re wacker wannabes
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/09/21 10:33 PM

I don't think so. Of the five I've sold, one was to a twenty something working man who thought he was going to make a project car out of it, one was to a college kid whose mom had a MGM and pushed him to get a Vic. He didn't want the push bar, console or the lights it had on it and had me take them off for a lower price. One was to a 45 year old professional father who had heard about their robust reliability. His wife drives it now. The fourth and fifth were sold to 18 and 21 year old college girls. Since I rent my P71's to movie companies while I have them, they often have (or get added) police lights consoles and pushbars. Most of the time my buyers don't care about them and no one wants a Black and White. I have to repaint them.
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/10/21 01:25 AM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
I would agree with you... except that Chargers are Dodge products. Since I'm always perusing cop Vics at auction, I can't help but see all the Chargers at auction too. They are invariably shot out by 100,000 miles. About half the time these auctions will also post the fleet service records on the cars being sold. You get one for a 100K Vic, there's nothing on it besides oil changes, tires and brake pads. You get one for a Charger and the control arms and tie rods have been changed at least once, maybe twice. Power steering pump probably changed. And if it's a hemi, it's got the lethal hemi tick, meaning cams and lifters shot. Check engine lights are always on.

I'll only buy the V6's, never the hemi and even then I put in far more money in them than I ever have to put in on P71's. Tahoes, Explorerceptors are both much safer bets. But nothing is as bulletproof as the Vic.


Chargers usually go for pretty high prices at auction. It's the first generation Chargers that had front end problems. They are hit and miss for cam problems just like GMs.
The auctions here there aren't many Chargers but when they are they are usually good. It's the explorers and Taurusceptors that either aren't running right or have rust issues and other problems. But Ford got something right for them because their interiors seem to hold up pretty well compared to Crown Vics. Tahoes usually have a lot of rust problems starting but the previous generation is known for that and those are the ones that are mainly showing up at auctions now.
Posted by: Ponyguy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/10/21 03:20 AM

Originally Posted By Rainbowpizza
Originally Posted By Huhnigan
Another thing I find interesting. There is no price difference between a retired police interceptor and a loaded Grand Marquis of the same year. So I definitely think the craze is centered around the P71. I think across the entire Panther platform the the P71 is fetching top dollar (with the exception of the Marauder obviously). You can get way more car/$$$ if you shop a GMQ or TC. But the P71 is what people are after.

Probably because most people don't know that the GMQ exists and the Crown Vic name is more well known.

FWIW:
A year ago, I traded my Grand Marquis LS Ultimate Edition with 150k on the odo for my Fusion... the Mercury was on the dealer's lot, and advertised on the internet a week later. It was listed at $3k and it was gone in a few days. It was a decent car, but I had my share of "incidents" with it... what pushed me to unload it was the plenum door hinge problem.
Posted by: 66lincoln

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/10/21 08:17 AM

I watch my agency's P71s when they go to auction. Auction prices are closing higher. $3,500 seems to be going rate here with some selling at over $5,000 in the last couple of weeks.

While my agency rips out the back seat and crudely removes the graphics, and does a lot of wire chopping (inmates are typically used to decommission the cars), the cars all go to auction in perfect running order with nothing else wrong with them except for needing to have a dead battery replaced.

I've heard through friends that the high auction prices are due to companies that now specialize in P71s for refurbishment and resale to agencies or the public and they need the inventory because demand is still high. That $5,000+ purchase car resulted in it leaving AZ and being picked up by a dealer in CA. I'll assume prices are high here in AZ because all of the P71s are completely rust free; I've seen some pretty rusted out ones for auction in wetter states.

Now, my agency has sent quite a few Chargers to auction in the later half of 2020; every single one was less than half the age of the P71s and every single one had a blown engine. Also, every Explorer Interceptor in the same age group as the Chargers were going to auction because of failure or imminent failure of the timing chain driven internal water pumps. I told my fleet service advisor I'm trying to save my '08 P71 until I retire and his response was that was a smart decision.
Posted by: Huhnigan

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/10/21 09:02 AM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
I don't think so. Of the five I've sold, one was to a twenty something working man who thought he was going to make a project car out of it, one was to a college kid whose mom had a MGM and pushed him to get a Vic. He didn't want the push bar, console or the lights it had on it and had me take them off for a lower price. One was to a 45 year old professional father who had heard about their robust reliability. His wife drives it now. The fourth and fifth were sold to 18 and 21 year old college girls. Since I rent my P71's to movie companies while I have them, they often have (or get added) police lights consoles and pushbars. Most of the time my buyers don't care about them and no one wants a Black and White. I have to repaint them.


That is wild.
Posted by: metro21

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/10/21 11:47 AM

People are finally starting to realize what we all here have known for a long time- these cars are dependable, reliable, simple, cheap and easy to work on (by yourself for the most part without going to the dealer or needing a fancy scan tool) and most importantly have a transmission fluid dip stick! I also think lack of supply is helping the prices go up along with way more exposure on social media.

Some of the prices I see on Ebay just make me laugh though. There's one CVPI guy in So Cal that has your typical CVPI SAP with 120k going for almost $12k. Five years ago, it would have been half that.

What kills me about the auction stuff too is that in top of the price, the seller pays auction fees up to 20% of the sale price and some are halfway across the country so they have to fly/ drive in or arrange for truck transport. I've drooled over some nice norsea blue SAP's on the east coast but no way I'm flying there and driving it back or paying and dealing with a rig to bring it to me in CA.
Posted by: 2011LX

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/10/21 11:55 AM

Originally Posted By metro21

Some of the prices I see on Ebay just make me laugh though. There's one CVPI guy in So Cal that has your typical CVPI SAP with 120k going for almost $12k. Five years ago, it would have been half that.



Asking price isn't the same as selling price.

But anyway, prices of new cars are up. That means prices of used cars are also up.

If you look around, you'll find that used car prices are NOT just a Crown Vic thing, right now. They're ALL through the roof. It's a bad time to be car shopping.
Posted by: TheNarrator

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/10/21 12:29 PM

Originally Posted By 2011LX
Originally Posted By metro21

Some of the prices I see on Ebay just make me laugh though. There's one CVPI guy in So Cal that has your typical CVPI SAP with 120k going for almost $12k. Five years ago, it would have been half that.



Asking price isn't the same as selling price.

But anyway, prices of new cars are up. That means prices of used cars are also up.

If you look around, you'll find that used car prices are NOT just a Crown Vic thing, right now. They're ALL through the roof. It's a bad time to be car shopping.

I'm car shopping or at least looking. oop
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/10/21 02:58 PM

I agree with all the above on this last page, and have a few more thoughts.

1) I can't believe those ridiculous ask prices ever sell close to what they think they want. Around here there was a guy selling a very nice 2011 P71 with about 65K miles, blemish free. He wanted $6500 for it and I bought and sold two others, lesser cars, but very nice under 100K P71's, in the same time that his didn't budge. My old target price for one of these decent, cleaned up, mechanically solid P71's used to be about $3500. The last one I sold got over $4000. Now my target price is $4000.

2) Here's another thing about young buyers... they do NOT know how to negotiate. They are easy to talk into paying full price. Last two I've sold went for ask price, but then I'm careful to scan the retail market before I post and I always post for a couple of hundred less than its closest competitor. Then I hold firm.

3) Auction Prices -- Since I shop them all, I'm very cognizant of the additional fees. Some are outrageous, some are pretty reasonable. I've seen as low as 7% and they can vary WITHIN the forum. You always have to be aware if there is an additional credit card charge on top of auction fees and if there is you pay by bank transfer. You have to watch out for the sales tax surcharge if you're an out of state buyer. You shouldn't pay it, but some sellers tack it on to the price and won't remove it. I've seen all combinations in the cars I've bought. Some added it and I had to convince my state not to double charge me upon registration. Some added it, then refunded it later. Some took it off before close. Unpredictable.

The worst offender in my area is actually the biggest "live" auction house: TNTauction.com. With Covid, they were forced to move to an all on-line auction format, which formerly was only an option for the lazy folks... an option that came with extra fees and a $1000 credit card deposit. Now everyone pays this way and fees for these pig in a poke "live" auctions now push 20%.

And in spite of this, in spite of the fact that they disclose almost nothing about their vehicles' history or provenance, these cars frequently push retail prices. Often, when fees are calculated, these auction buyers are paying more than retail. It's absurd.
Posted by: GM_Guy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/10/21 07:29 PM

Too many people have "found" auctions and get carried away. Local auction place (regular stuff, not auto), always watching it, rarely get anything anymore as bidding is stupid, often going as high as retail, sometimes higher. Nobody seems to do their homework and get caught up in trying to be winning bid as if its some sort of bragging right.
Posted by: metro21

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/10/21 11:46 PM

Originally Posted By GM_Guy
Too many people have "found" auctions and get carried away. Local auction place (regular stuff, not auto), always watching it, rarely get anything anymore as bidding is stupid, often going as high as retail, sometimes higher. Nobody seems to do their homework and get caught up in trying to be winning bid as if its some sort of bragging right.


I agree. Pre-COVID, at in person auctions,I would see inexperienced newbs bid up to and even over retail on some vehicles. It got to where even the crowd was laughing and yelling at them that they were being stupid and paying more than what they could buy it for on CL or FB MP. Suckers galore!

I've checked out a certain major online auction house near me after looking at the posted photos on their website. You can still check the cars out in person but cannot bid on them in person. It's amazing what you don't see (and cannot smell) in those few photos that can make and usually break a bid. Cars that looked acceptable in online photos were usually not as good in person- those of you brave enough to online date know what I mean. I've noticed that online bidding seems to drive up the price more than in person bidding too for some weird reason. All the cars I've bought from auction have been in person. I have never bought a car at an online auction due to the ridiculous online rat race and ultimate selling price. Scary part is you know most of the time the buyer has not seen the car in person and is solely relying on the photos.

And yeah, I get that asking price and selling price are two different things but in the end, the selling price is usually not too far from the asking.
Posted by: Huhnigan

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/11/21 02:10 PM

And you can pretty much forget trying to get a P71 at auction in Florida. Every time Ol' Cleetus has a race he buys like 20 of those things, haha.
Posted by: TheNarrator

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/11/21 03:11 PM

Originally Posted By Huhnigan
And you can pretty much forget trying to get a P71 at auction in Florida. Every time Ol' Cleetus has a race he buys like 20 of those things, haha.

This is why I'm looking into getting a MGM.
Posted by: GRMN_CV

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/11/21 05:09 PM

Was wondering why nobody mentioned it yet.

Last summer I stumbled upon a nice Vic. Black chiefs car, tan interior, about 100k mls. Mint. 3.55 gears. Was somewhat 3000ish $.

I did not buy it. Beginning of this year this Idea came back to my mind. I was like: OK,I really need to buy a CV.

But what I find now are high milage cars for double that price.

So was this car some kind of lucky find or a fake or are prices skyrocketing at the moment?
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/11/21 05:19 PM


Quote:

I agree. Pre-COVID, at in person auctions,I would see inexperienced newbs bid up to and even over retail on some vehicles. It got to where even the crowd was laughing and yelling at them that they were being stupid and paying more than what they could buy it for on CL or FB MP. Suckers galore!

I've checked out a certain major online auction house near me after looking at the posted photos on their website. You can still check the cars out in person but cannot bid on them in person. It's amazing what you don't see (and cannot smell) in those few photos that can make and usually break a bid. Cars that looked acceptable in online photos were usually not as good in person- those of you brave enough to online date know what I mean. I've noticed that online bidding seems to drive up the price more than in person bidding too for some weird reason. All the cars I've bought from auction have been in person. I have never bought a car at an online auction due to the ridiculous online rat race and ultimate selling price. Scary part is you know most of the time the buyer has not seen the car in person and is solely relying on the photos.

And yeah, I get that asking price and selling price are two different things but in the end, the selling price is usually not too far from the asking.


You're talking about the GovDeals lot down in Fontana. Sadly it culls from SoCal departments, principally Orange County, and those cars are rode hard and put away wet. Plus they command too high prices because they draw bidders from a huge population center. GovDeals auctions in other states and smaller burgs act more normally.

I'm the flip side of you, I've never purchased a car from an in-person auction, all my buys (over a dozen) have been from on-line auction houses, direct from the owner/seller and except for one, I've never seen them before I picked them up. All have been driven home.

What's the reason for this? On-line auctions disclose MUCH more information about the cars than do the in-person middleman auction lots, who often post no more than three to five small, fuzzy pictures, the od read-out and whether the thing was towed in or not. They maintain arms-length isolation by saying they know nothing about the car, not even if it runs or not. When you get to the lot on auction day and actually look at the pigs that have been dumped on them, they are invariably worse than even the fuzzy photos indicate.

On-line auction cars are usually being sold BY THE OWNING AGENCY and they disclose much more about the car, along with ten to 50 better quality photos. About 50% of the time they post the complete fleet service records. It's much less a pig in a poke.

Of course, product varies tremendously based on the selling agency. Some sellers are difficult and their product isn't good. AZ DOT only sells shot out crap. Orange County will not sell any police vehicle to the public that has non-opening rear doors (which means 99% of them). Ventura County has good vehicles, but they put high reserve prices on them that are above retail, so they relist the same vehicles over and over again. You eventually learn to follow only the good sellers who offer good cars the right way. I end up buying from the same half dozen sellers over and over again.
Posted by: CommanderCody

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/11/21 09:31 PM

Originally Posted By Huhnigan
Another thing I find interesting. There is no price difference between a retired police interceptor and a loaded Grand Marquis of the same year. So I definitely think the craze is centered around the P71. I think across the entire Panther platform the the P71 is fetching top dollar (with the exception of the Marauder obviously). You can get way more car/$$$ if you shop a GMQ or TC. But the P71 is what people are after.


Way more car is somewhat subjective. Yes you get more luxury features with those models, but its also more complexity, more stuff to break,, more weight, and lessor drivetrain setups. While most P71s have had hard first lives, they do have many performance enhancements over most regular Panthers which could also be argued as being more car for the money. Ie, 11 more HP, better intake, better stall speed, better gearing, stiffer springs, etc. Also the lower number of superfluous luxury items is seen as an advantage by some. Sometimes its better and cheaper to buy a car sub model that already has the better performance options already installed rather than adding them to a base powertrain model car.

A common complaint with modern cars is that you can't get stripped down performance models. Most performance drivetrain models come prepacked with extra superfluous luxury items that drive up prices and add weight that is counterproductive to performance. Thus some of the appeal of police package cars is that they are/were a cheap way to get stripped down cars with factory performance goodies which were sometimes not even made available to normal non police models.

Posted by: DudeAbides

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/12/21 12:50 PM

I got my P71 in 2012; it was my first car in 25 years. I previously rode motorcycles exclusively for transportation. EFI, power windows, ABS, A/C. It had things none of my previous cars had, so it was loaded!
Posted by: metro21

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/12/21 02:08 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch

Quote:

I agree. Pre-COVID, at in person auctions,I would see inexperienced newbs bid up to and even over retail on some vehicles. It got to where even the crowd was laughing and yelling at them that they were being stupid and paying more than what they could buy it for on CL or FB MP. Suckers galore!

I've checked out a certain major online auction house near me after looking at the posted photos on their website. You can still check the cars out in person but cannot bid on them in person. It's amazing what you don't see (and cannot smell) in those few photos that can make and usually break a bid. Cars that looked acceptable in online photos were usually not as good in person- those of you brave enough to online date know what I mean. I've noticed that online bidding seems to drive up the price more than in person bidding too for some weird reason. All the cars I've bought from auction have been in person. I have never bought a car at an online auction due to the ridiculous online rat race and ultimate selling price. Scary part is you know most of the time the buyer has not seen the car in person and is solely relying on the photos.

And yeah, I get that asking price and selling price are two different things but in the end, the selling price is usually not too far from the asking.


You're talking about the GovDeals lot down in Fontana. Sadly it culls from SoCal departments, principally Orange County, and those cars are rode hard and put away wet. Plus they command too high prices because they draw bidders from a huge population center. GovDeals auctions in other states and smaller burgs act more normally.

I'm the flip side of you, I've never purchased a car from an in-person auction, all my buys (over a dozen) have been from on-line auction houses, direct from the owner/seller and except for one, I've never seen them before I picked them up. All have been driven home.

What's the reason for this? On-line auctions disclose MUCH more information about the cars than do the in-person middleman auction lots, who often post no more than three to five small, fuzzy pictures, the od read-out and whether the thing was towed in or not. They maintain arms-length isolation by saying they know nothing about the car, not even if it runs or not. When you get to the lot on auction day and actually look at the pigs that have been dumped on them, they are invariably worse than even the fuzzy photos indicate.

On-line auction cars are usually being sold BY THE OWNING AGENCY and they disclose much more about the car, along with ten to 50 better quality photos. About 50% of the time they post the complete fleet service records. It's much less a pig in a poke.

Of course, product varies tremendously based on the selling agency. Some sellers are difficult and their product isn't good. AZ DOT only sells shot out crap. Orange County will not sell any police vehicle to the public that has non-opening rear doors (which means 99% of them). Ventura County has good vehicles, but they put high reserve prices on them that are above retail, so they relist the same vehicles over and over again. You eventually learn to follow only the good sellers who offer good cars the right way. I end up buying from the same half dozen sellers over and over again.


I check out GovDeals too but the good ones (like in SoCal/ Fontana/ Y Valley) are usually too far away to make it worthwhile for me or are dealer/ out of state only.

I was referring to JJ Kane as there is a physical site not too far from me where the cars are and can be inspected. After actual physically seeing the cars from the last auction and seeing how much they went for online including fees, I was astounded. I just laughed at the the thought of the winner coming to see their car for the first time in person and thinking, "OMG! WTF!?" Unless they're buying it for themselves as a keeper, I don't see how they would make much profit off it to make it worthwhile for them once you factor in all expenses.
Posted by: RipWixomAssembly

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/12/21 11:16 PM

Yeah. It seems to be they're high on GovDeals. Seen quite a few Ex-CT State Police units not going for obscene prices though. They sell on PropertyRoom.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/13/21 01:47 AM

Quote:

I check out GovDeals too but the good ones (like in SoCal/ Fontana/ Y Valley) are usually too far away to make it worthwhile for me or are dealer/ out of state only.

I was referring to JJ Kane as there is a physical site not too far from me where the cars are and can be inspected. After actual physically seeing the cars from the last auction and seeing how much they went for online including fees, I was astounded. I just laughed at the the thought of the winner coming to see their car for the first time in person and thinking, "OMG! WTF!?" Unless they're buying it for themselves as a keeper, I don't see how they would make much profit off it to make it worthwhile for them once you factor in all expenses.


Based on your citation, I went and checked out JJ Kane, a big east coast IN PERSON auctioneer, exactly like the TNTAuction house I mentioned, that has had to move to 100% on-line format, just like TNT. It looks like JJKane has expanded to handle some site auctions in Northern California (Dixon, Eureka, and the Jurupa Valley).

This is EXACTLY the type of auctioneer site I dislike. The auctions trigger in person at specific times on pre-arranged days with weeks of lead time in which you cannot bid. Then in a matter of minutes or even seconds, you have to bid remotely... no disclosure, lousy pictures, dumped off vehicles. And you are right... the cumulative fees and deposits with this sort of auction are exhorbitant. At least 13% and pushing 20% if you don't do it the right way. My reaction upon visiting two TNT Auctions was EXACTLY like yours. The cars were crap, the bidders didn't know what they were doing and bid too high. Forget about flipping those cars, they were paying too much to KEEP them because sure as shooting repairs would be necessary. I didn't even stay for the bidding on the second one and rarely look at their website now. Why would I, it doesn't tell me anything, and I know the prices will soar on auction day.

Hence why I hate them.

In comparison, the GovDeals auctions are much more reasonable... even the ones that sit at their corporate lot in Fontana for pre-auction inspections. These only online auctions are loading and finishing all the time, the bids go up all the time and you can follow them and drop out whenever they hit your caps. They have much greater disclosure and better pictures.

These on-line only houses (PublicSurplus, GovDeals, GovPlanet, TruckPlanet etc.) all seem to have their pro's and cons. GovDeals is much bigger on the East Coast, Public Surplus (a Utah Company) is bigger in the west. GovPlanet (Ritchie Bros.) deals in Federal Gov surplus and machinery, not so much in cars.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/13/21 01:55 AM

Quote:
Way more car is somewhat subjective. Yes you get more luxury features with those models, but its also more complexity, more stuff to break,, more weight, and lessor drivetrain setups. While most P71s have had hard first lives, they do have many performance enhancements over most regular Panthers which could also be argued as being more car for the money.


Tell me about it. After owning a bunch of P71's, I just bought my first LX Sport. Never had a single issue with the manual climate control on 7 previous CVPI's, and this one just had it's automatic climate control overhauled to the tune of $800. Called my buddy who also has a Sport and his went out too, said it's common.

Sometimes... most times... simpler is better.
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/13/21 10:30 AM

Those auction places like govdeals are also more well known so as people can't get cars locally those are where they are turning to and that also drags the prices up.

Even with a pile of pictures and info i wouldn't buy a police car site unseen unless it was a great price. Seeing the car in person tells you pretty quick if it's worth getting in to or not and a lot of descriptions are bloated and only meant to up-sell the car.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/14/21 11:16 PM

Goody, more for me then.

For what it's worth, I see that GovPlanet has a half dozen nice under-100K, 2006-2011 P71's and P73's for sale in New Braunfels Tx, closing on the 17th. It's a cab ride from the San Antonio airport, for those willing to road trip to get a good Vic.
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/15/21 01:26 PM

When I bought my '07 at the live KPD auction, I didn't know anything about the car. I had just hurried back from the bidder registration hut and walked up next to it as they started the engine to demonstrate its running condition for sale.
When I heard the bidding stall at $1100, I spoke up and won it. I got lucky that it had under-100k and traclok.
Online auctions are fine when the prices aren't inflated, but live auctions are way more fun. I hope they aren't a thing of the past. Fun times skipping out of class in high school to peruse the city auctions.

Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/15/21 02:17 PM

Aaah for the days when you'd see a dozen basically identical P71's being auctioned at the same time, cause you knew that would mean that the heat would burn off of one or two them, allowing you to score a deal. Nowadays they only seem to come onto market in onesies and twosies.

My best find was my '08 that was auctioned simultaneously with 7 other identical '08 to '11 P71's by one Idaho sheriff's department, all closing within the same minute. With five minutes to go, I had about four screens open, bidding on a bunch and trying to push the competition off by allowing them to win other cars as I set my sights on the one I wanted... the '08 with a disclosed headlight issue. In the end, I lucked out, I won my car for just over $1400, the lowest of any of the 8 being auctioned that day and the lighting issue was only a cut ground wire that took a lot of head-scratching, but only $80 to solve.
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/16/21 08:51 AM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Aaah for the days when you'd see a dozen basically identical P71's being auctioned at the same time, cause you knew that would mean that the heat would burn off of one or two them, allowing you to score a deal. Nowadays they only seem to come onto market in onesies and twosies.

My best find was my '08 that was auctioned simultaneously with 7 other identical '08 to '11 P71's by one Idaho sheriff's department, all closing within the same minute. With five minutes to go, I had about four screens open, bidding on a bunch and trying to push the competition off by allowing them to win other cars as I set my sights on the one I wanted... the '08 with a disclosed headlight issue. In the end, I lucked out, I won my car for just over $1400, the lowest of any of the 8 being auctioned that day and the lighting issue was only a cut ground wire that took a lot of head-scratching, but only $80 to solve.

Aint that the truth! You're guaranteed to find a deal when there's a large group being sold. That's why I soon want to try my hand buying a Charger or 2, despite the reliability issues. That's what many of the agencies here have been using now. The Tahoes have smilier issues with DOD, and the fwd exploder is too mommy-mobile.

On the other hand, my worst find was my '09. I thought I scored a deal, buying my newest and lowest-milege p71 yet. It was in a lot of identical p71s on govdeals, from a podunk sheriffs office. It had an undisclosed misfire and inoperative cooling fan. A few parts had been picked off while it sat in the PD lot. Clean title, but it had a badly bent frame from a hastily repaired front end collision. Then the transmission went out just before I listed it for sale. JY trans installed myself, barely broke even selling that car.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/16/21 12:26 PM

I see Chargers galore out here... and all have issues. Of course, the Highway Patrols/State Police forces of the western states use them and these get about 50,000 miles a year put on them and are surplussed after only 3 years. Want a 2017 with 150K and hail damage? We got 'em and they'll only cost you about $6000.

Very nearly all other 5.7's I see listed have the hemi tick, or they'll be listed as C.E.L. on... which means the hemi tick. Evidently high idling in a normal patrol vehicle is even harder on these engines than highway usage. And there is no fix for the cam lifter problem short of a $4000 replacement, which will then do it again.

I would buy a pre-2009 Charger if I could find one, because evidently the early non VVT hemi's didn't suffer from the hemi tick. And I do shop for Chargers, but will only buy the V6. Even then, I spent far more per car on the two I bought than I did on even the worst of my Vics.

I've bought three Explorerceptors and spent very little on them as well. I love driving them. So the water pump goblin hasn't bit me yet. I'm trying to buy my first SS Tahoe, but haven't scored the right price yet. They seem to command higher prices at auction than all the others.
Posted by: bluejay_32

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/16/21 01:41 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
I see Chargers galore out here... and all have issues. Of course, the Highway Patrols/State Police forces of the western states use them and these get about 50,000 miles a year put on them and are surplussed after only 3 years. Want a 2017 with 150K and hail damage? We got 'em and they'll only cost you about $6000.

I'd pay $6000 for a P71 before I bought that - and I wouldn't pay $6000 for a P71.
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/16/21 05:27 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
I see Chargers galore out here... and all have issues. Of course, the Highway Patrols/State Police forces of the western states use them and these get about 50,000 miles a year put on them and are surplussed after only 3 years. Want a 2017 with 150K and hail damage? We got 'em and they'll only cost you about $6000.

Very nearly all other 5.7's I see listed have the hemi tick, or they'll be listed as C.E.L. on... which means the hemi tick. Evidently high idling in a normal patrol vehicle is even harder on these engines than highway usage. And there is no fix for the cam lifter problem short of a $4000 replacement, which will then do it again.

I would buy a pre-2009 Charger if I could find one, because evidently the early non VVT hemi's didn't suffer from the hemi tick. And I do shop for Chargers, but will only buy the V6. Even then, I spent far more per car on the two I bought than I did on even the worst of my Vics.

I've bought three Explorerceptors and spent very little on them as well. I love driving them. So the water pump goblin hasn't bit me yet. I'm trying to buy my first SS Tahoe, but haven't scored the right price yet. They seem to command higher prices at auction than all the others.

Have u purchased a 5.7 charger or just v6? I've noticed their extensive maintenance(break-down) records also. 5.7 lifters and cam are starved of oil at idle...no good for police use.
Do you see many Caprice PPV there? Those are also alluring, but they're few and far between here, and often fetch a pretty penny.
I've driven a handful of Explorer XLT with the 3.5 and have to admit they're fun to drive, for what they are at least. I believe it when you say they're the new bread and butter of the used police car market. But beyond that I have no interest in them.
The 3.6 SXT charger is a ton of fun to drive. Never driven the hemi police package but I can imagine it's worth the reliability risk. I want to buy one and take it drifting. Profit margin is not my incentive for Charger ownership at this point. Maybe I'll eat my words.
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/16/21 07:20 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
I see Chargers galore out here... and all have issues. Of course, the Highway Patrols/State Police forces of the western states use them and these get about 50,000 miles a year put on them and are surplussed after only 3 years. Want a 2017 with 150K and hail damage? We got 'em and they'll only cost you about $6000.

Very nearly all other 5.7's I see listed have the hemi tick, or they'll be listed as C.E.L. on... which means the hemi tick. Evidently high idling in a normal patrol vehicle is even harder on these engines than highway usage. And there is no fix for the cam lifter problem short of a $4000 replacement, which will then do it again.

I would buy a pre-2009 Charger if I could find one, because evidently the early non VVT hemi's didn't suffer from the hemi tick. And I do shop for Chargers, but will only buy the V6. Even then, I spent far more per car on the two I bought than I did on even the worst of my Vics.

I've bought three Explorerceptors and spent very little on them as well. I love driving them. So the water pump goblin hasn't bit me yet. I'm trying to buy my first SS Tahoe, but haven't scored the right price yet. They seem to command higher prices at auction than all the others.


Hemi tick and the cam problem noise are two different things.
The older ones don't have the cam problem but they have valve seats that can drop potentially wrecking the engine and the failure rate of that and the cam is about the same. They are also the ones that have the brake and front end problems.

So far it's only the previous gen Tahoes that go up for auction here and they're over priced. You can buy normal one used for not not much more then the auctions sell for. I bid on a non runner last year and even it went high enough that if worst case it needed an engine you were lucky but if it had transmission or transfer case problems it would be more then it's worth to fix.
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/16/21 07:47 PM

Originally Posted By Tenevic_P71

Have u purchased a 5.7 charger or just v6? I've noticed their extensive maintenance(break-down) records also. 5.7 lifters and cam are starved of oil at idle...no good for police use.
Do you see many Caprice PPV there? Those are also alluring, but they're few and far between here, and often fetch a pretty penny.
I've driven a handful of Explorer XLT with the 3.5 and have to admit they're fun to drive, for what they are at least. I believe it when you say they're the new bread and butter of the used police car market. But beyond that I have no interest in them.
The 3.6 SXT charger is a ton of fun to drive. Never driven the hemi police package but I can imagine it's worth the reliability risk. I want to buy one and take it drifting. Profit margin is not my incentive for Charger ownership at this point. Maybe I'll eat my words.


There are usually several caprices listed on the auction sites. The two things that keep me away from them is I'd be worried about finding parts since there not that many around and there's a high number with engine problems. Last time I went looking there were 18 and 2/3 of them had problems. Plus I don't like how they look. But for the right price it would still be fun to get one to mess around with.
I've had a hemi charger for several years and had zero problems with it. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another.
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/16/21 10:09 PM

Originally Posted By 2007CrownVic
There are usually several caprices listed on the auction sites. The two things that keep me away from them is I'd be worried about finding parts since there not that many around and there's a high number with engine problems. Last time I went looking there were 18 and 2/3 of them had problems. Plus I don't like how they look. But for the right price it would still be fun to get one to mess around with.
I've had a hemi charger for several years and had zero problems with it. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another.

I've heard the Caprice 6.0 has similar problems to the 5.7 where they eat cams and lifters while idling. That aussie 6.0 is a real badass engine, a dying breed.
Is your Charger a former police vehicle? Mileage, idle hours?
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/17/21 08:35 AM

Originally Posted By Tenevic_P71

Have u purchased a 5.7 charger or just v6? I've noticed their extensive maintenance(break-down) records also. 5.7 lifters and cam are starved of oil at idle...no good for police use.
Do you see many Caprice PPV there? Those are also alluring, but they're few and far between here, and often fetch a pretty penny.
I've driven a handful of Explorer XLT with the 3.5 and have to admit they're fun to drive, for what they are at least. I believe it when you say they're the new bread and butter of the used police car market. But beyond that I have no interest in them.
The 3.6 SXT charger is a ton of fun to drive. Never driven the hemi police package but I can imagine it's worth the reliability risk. I want to buy one and take it drifting. Profit margin is not my incentive for Charger ownership at this point. Maybe I'll eat my words.

I thought the two V6 Chargers I bought had plenty of power and were fun to drive. They had a tighter to the road feel than our Vics, but I had to do front end work on both of them and they had less than 100K miles. It's the sort of problem (tie rods control arms front shocks) that don't often get listed in the lot assessment statement pre-auction, so you get that $800 nasty surprise when you take your "runs and drives" car home the first time.

I currently have my eye on a Caprice or two at auction out here having just put them on my radar. My hometown PD has three sitting in their surplus lot right now, under 100k miles and aged 2013-2015. TBH, I thought they were generic undesirable Impalas until a Fleet Manager for Washington State PD schooled me otherwise and told me that he commonly gets $3000 for wrecked ones due to the desirable engine. He told me that they're beasts when working.

Jury is split on how hard they are to get parts for. He said that WSP dumped them after only three years in their fleets for that reason and since they were made in Australia and never sold to the public, there aren't that many floating around to part out. But their rarity on the street also seems to me to be a function of their ageing out of fleet useful surface. Five years ago, you couldn't get one as they were brand new, still in use, and not coming to auction. Now in 2021, the 2011's and '12's are ten years old, and 2015's are even coming up.

They going for $5,000 to $6,000 at auction and I have no idea what they'll do at retail or even how to sell them because there is no category for them in my local want ads. I'm guessing it would be a tough sell, in which you'd have to first educate your potential buyer to get him past the upcharge.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/17/21 09:19 AM

I just got finished perusing the complete service records for 5 2013 and 2015 Caprices being auctioned by one PD. They had 50 to 75000 miles on them with about 10,000 engine hours.

No real concerns in any of their histories. Problems with the AC common to three of them, one ate serpentine belts, one had repeated problems with driver's seat adjustment. All had electrical issues with police lights and equipment (shorts, lights not working properly etc.) but no common denominator trends such as with Chargers (Front end wear, power steering pumps, cam lifter issues)
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/17/21 12:07 PM

And I just found out that two of the five Caprices I looked at (the 2015's) were V6 3600 LFX engines. Who the hell wants those, not me nor any other ex-cop car enthusiast, I'm guessing. No reason to even try a Caprice unless it's a 6.0 L55. I was not aware that they even made the Aussie Caprice with the V6.

At the same time, the same PD is auctioning one of its last remaining 2011 Crown Vics, also posted with a complete service history. Care to guess what it reveals in 75k of life?

Nothing save brake jobs and battery replacements. Except for one notation in late 2019 ... a special request to KEEP the aged out unit IN SERVICE until the next replacement cycle!

You don't see that with Caprices or Chargers.
Posted by: Huhnigan

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/17/21 02:02 PM

I thought about snagging an Aussie Caprice but the 6.0 Holden engine is NOT the same as the U.S. counterpart. I don't know if the differences make maintaining the engine troublesome. My local PD is phasing out TONS of these units and 90% of them have a knock. The DOD system is notorious for failing.
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/18/21 06:57 PM

The undesirable impala part is what gets me in the looks department. It's the oddbalness of them that has me intrigued but the looks and engine problem that keep me away.
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/18/21 07:16 PM

Originally Posted By Tenevic_P71
Originally Posted By 2007CrownVic
There are usually several caprices listed on the auction sites. The two things that keep me away from them is I'd be worried about finding parts since there not that many around and there's a high number with engine problems. Last time I went looking there were 18 and 2/3 of them had problems. Plus I don't like how they look. But for the right price it would still be fun to get one to mess around with.
I've had a hemi charger for several years and had zero problems with it. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another.

I've heard the Caprice 6.0 has similar problems to the 5.7 where they eat cams and lifters while idling. That aussie 6.0 is a real badass engine, a dying breed.
Is your Charger a former police vehicle? Mileage, idle hours?


Yes. Around 100K on it. I forget the hours but it's up there. I was more interested in two others with more mileage but mine was the first one up and I didn't want to get stuck not getting any if there were bidding wars on any of them.

I'm also almost interested in getting a Taurusceptor to try but it's the durability of them that keeps me away. None of them have enough profit margin to make worth buying here to flip especially when none of them are as durable as Crown vics were. And the problem with Crown vics is we're in the rust area so any left at auctions usuaully aren't that great. I've seen better deals thru private sales.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/18/21 09:37 PM

I too would buy a Taurusceptor if I could find one at a good price... meaning with enough separation between auction and retail prices. So far I haven't seen that separation out here in the Rocky Mountains. Taurusceptors are all selling for too much.

To be fair, I'm only looking at the AWD model. But heck, the Explorerceptor is basically the same everything mechanically and I have scored several of those for between $4500 and $5500.
Posted by: Original_Light

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/18/21 09:46 PM

I own a civilian Dodge Charger with the 392 HEMI (6.4 Liter). The build quality on it seems to be decent to me. My only complaint is the cheap, soft paint (which paint protection film and a professional-grade ceramic coating solved for me).

The newer Chargers (2015+) don't have the suspension and brake issues the 2006-2014's did - however, the HEMI tick is still an issue. Idling does indeed hurt HEMI engines, since there isn't enough oil splash at low RPMs. The 4.6's in Vics, by comparison, are force-fed oil in these critical areas at idle, hence their near invincibility to idle hours. Not to mention near indestructible water pumps, which also happen to be easily accessible if/when they do fail.
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/18/21 09:51 PM

Originally Posted By Original_Light
The 4.6's in Vics, by comparison, are force-fed oil in these critical areas at idle, hence their near invincibility to idle hours. Not to mention near indestructible water pumps, which also happen to be easily accessible if/when they do fail.

True! I think a 4.6 could idle damn near till the end of time. A couple of my vics have had squeaky water pumps when cold, but they didn't leak and stubbornly held proper temp.
Still have your vic? Do you like your 6.4 Charger? Did you buy it new? Those are real badass cars.
I can quickly get over the strange elongated-cruze-impala look of the Caprice, the drivetrain is cool as hell. The DOD is an issue though.
[video:youtube]https://youtu.be/RABVm5FGYjo?list=PLlU8I0vOvixBUfR_dICBf7k3T_tdZwjo_[/video]
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/18/21 10:04 PM

Don't any of the video embed features on this forum work anymore? confused
Posted by: a_d_a_m

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/18/21 10:46 PM

Originally Posted By Original_Light
The newer Chargers (2015+) don't have the suspension and brake issues the 2006-2014's did - however, the HEMI tick is still an issue. Idling does indeed hurt HEMI engines, since there isn't enough oil splash at low RPMs. The 4.6's in Vics, by comparison, are force-fed oil in these critical areas at idle, hence their near invincibility to idle hours. Not to mention near indestructible water pumps, which also happen to be easily accessible if/when they do fail.
This is a pretty good, and concise reason to appreciate the venerable 4.6. ff
Posted by: CrystalPistol

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/18/21 11:43 PM

Originally Posted By Tenevic_P71

I think a 4.6 could idle damn near till the end of time.
I responded to a wreck one day, was a '99 red F-150 with 4.6 ... up bank, then rolled onto a car, it was upside down, driver crawled out the back glass, engine was idling still, driver in tears as his Grandpa had given him the truck, wrecker got there, cut a path to get above the PU to pull it up off a car, was hooking up to it when the 4.6 finally clunked and locked up. I know it idled up side down a good 30 minutes just while I was there, doesn't count the time from when the wreck happened until I got on scene. Wrecker driver was amazed.
Posted by: 2011LX

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/19/21 08:30 AM

Originally Posted By Original_Light
since there isn't enough oil splash at low RPMs. The 4.6's in Vics, by comparison, are force-fed oil in these critical areas at idle, hence their near invincibility to idle hours.


Just to be clear, the upper end failures with a lot of these modern engines (HEMI, LS, even the later iterations of the mod motors (3V, especially)) are a failure of the bearing in the roller followers/lifters. Those aren't force fed on ANY engine, including the 2V 4.6! They're all drip/splash lubed.

I personally don't believe it's common enough problem on any of them to be of concern.

I'm still suspicious of the real cause. It's interesting to me that, after decades of using roller cams without trouble, so many manufacturers developed the same types of problems with their roller parts right around the same time (mid-late 2000's).

Posted by: Old_Guy_Stu

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/19/21 08:45 AM

Probably about the same time they started getting parts from China. Surely a coincidence!
Posted by: Original_Light

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/19/21 09:08 AM

Originally Posted By Tenevic_P71
Originally Posted By Original_Light
The 4.6's in Vics, by comparison, are force-fed oil in these critical areas at idle, hence their near invincibility to idle hours. Not to mention near indestructible water pumps, which also happen to be easily accessible if/when they do fail.

True! I think a 4.6 could idle damn near till the end of time. A couple of my vics have had squeaky water pumps when cold, but they didn't leak and stubbornly held proper temp.
Still have your vic? Do you like your 6.4 Charger? Did you buy it new? Those are real badass cars.
I can quickly get over the strange elongated-cruze-impala look of the Caprice, the drivetrain is cool as hell. The DOD is an issue though.
[video:youtube]https://youtu.be/RABVm5FGYjo?list=PLlU8I0vOvixBUfR_dICBf7k3T_tdZwjo_[/video]


I still have the Vic, and I bought the Charger brand new. It’s a fun car, and I’m happy with the purchase. I got a really good deal on it... $34,000 out the door with all taxes and fees. Sticker price was $42,000.

In regards to the roller lifters, yes that’s the failure point from lack of oil. There’s a Youtuber called Uncle Tony’s Garage, he’s been a mechanic for decades. He takes a HEMI apart and shows why and how these engines fail from a lack of lubrication on the top end. Basically, the crankcase isn’t slanted enough so oil doesn’t drip down. He said it’s a really stupid engineering mistake that’s like engine design 101, but said they’re otherwise great engines. He says if you’re above 2000 RPM, the entire engine is being completely lubricated in oil.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dI93-Zdx_nY
Posted by: 2011LX

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/19/21 09:20 AM

Yes, that video's been around.

There's been tons of debate on this for years. Jury is still out on if his analysis is correct or not.

Still doesn't explain the LS and 3V mod motor roller bearing failures.
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/19/21 11:19 AM

Originally Posted By Original_Light
Originally Posted By Tenevic_P71
Originally Posted By Original_Light
The 4.6's in Vics, by comparison, are force-fed oil in these critical areas at idle, hence their near invincibility to idle hours. Not to mention near indestructible water pumps, which also happen to be easily accessible if/when they do fail.

True! I think a 4.6 could idle damn near till the end of time. A couple of my vics have had squeaky water pumps when cold, but they didn't leak and stubbornly held proper temp.
Still have your vic? Do you like your 6.4 Charger? Did you buy it new? Those are real badass cars.
I can quickly get over the strange elongated-cruze-impala look of the Caprice, the drivetrain is cool as hell. The DOD is an issue though.
[video:youtube]https://youtu.be/RABVm5FGYjo?list=PLlU8I0vOvixBUfR_dICBf7k3T_tdZwjo_[/video]


I still have the Vic, and I bought the Charger brand new. It’s a fun car, and I’m happy with the purchase. I got a really good deal on it... $34,000 out the door with all taxes and fees. Sticker price was $42,000.

In regards to the roller lifters, yes that’s the failure point from lack of oil. There’s a Youtuber called Uncle Tony’s Garage, he’s been a mechanic for decades. He takes a HEMI apart and shows why and how these engines fail from a lack of lubrication on the top end. Basically, the crankcase isn’t slanted enough so oil doesn’t drip down. He said it’s a really stupid engineering mistake that’s like engine design 101, but said they’re otherwise great engines. He says if you’re above 2000 RPM, the entire engine is being completely lubricated in oil.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dI93-Zdx_nY


His video is debatable. There are other vidoes that show how his thought is a non issue.
It still doesn't explain like 2011LX said why there are so many issues with newer roller lifters. They're probably all from the same supplier using the same sub par metal for their bearings.
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/19/21 11:23 AM

Originally Posted By Original_Light

The newer Chargers (2015+) don't have the suspension and brake issues the 2006-2014's did - however, the HEMI tick is still an issue. Idling does indeed hurt HEMI engines, since there isn't enough oil splash at low RPMs. The 4.6's in Vics, by comparison, are force-fed oil in these critical areas at idle, hence their near invincibility to idle hours. Not to mention near indestructible water pumps, which also happen to be easily accessible if/when they do fail.


Suspension changed for 2011 and is the same right up to current. The brakes changed around the same time.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/19/21 12:33 PM

Originally Posted By 2011LX


Just to be clear, the upper end failures with a lot of these modern engines (HEMI, LS, even the later iterations of the mod motors (3V, especially)) are a failure of the bearing in the roller followers/lifters. Those aren't force fed on ANY engine, including the 2V 4.6! They're all drip/splash lubed.

I personally don't believe it's common enough problem on any of them to be of concern.

I'm still suspicious of the real cause. It's interesting to me that, after decades of using roller cams without trouble, so many manufacturers developed the same types of problems with their roller parts right around the same time (mid-late 2000's).



You mean right around the time of VVT (2009) introduction and that's when the cam and lifter problems started for Chrysler's two hemis.

I can tell you its a common enough problem to be present (or suspected) in about 75% of all hemi Chargers coming to the auction market these days. It's pretty clear that the agencies just drive them until the tick turns into misfires and check-engine lights on, then they dump them. Whether that's at 75K miles or 150,000, it's the fate that awaits them all.
Posted by: 2011LX

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/19/21 12:54 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Originally Posted By 2011LX


Just to be clear, the upper end failures with a lot of these modern engines (HEMI, LS, even the later iterations of the mod motors (3V, especially)) are a failure of the bearing in the roller followers/lifters. Those aren't force fed on ANY engine, including the 2V 4.6! They're all drip/splash lubed.

I personally don't believe it's common enough problem on any of them to be of concern.

I'm still suspicious of the real cause. It's interesting to me that, after decades of using roller cams without trouble, so many manufacturers developed the same types of problems with their roller parts right around the same time (mid-late 2000's).



You mean right around the time of VVT (2009) introduction and that's when the cam and lifter problems started for Chrysler's two hemis.

I can tell you its a common enough problem to be present (or suspected) in about 75% of all hemi Chargers coming to the auction market these days.


Well, not surprising. Most of the junk at auction is near the end of it's useful life as a fleet car and/or needs a repair that's above the value of the car when repaired. That's why the auctions exist.


based on that logic: this is a forum based on the Crown Victoria. Since 90% of the tech sections are filled with repair questions, it's likely that all of these cars are problematic?

I was in the doctor's office yesterday and most of the people there were sick. Zombie apocalypse is on it's way?


There are hundreds of thousands of LS, Hemi, and 3V mod motors cruising the streets on factory engines that have never been opened. The vehicles displayed at the auction lot really aren't representative of all vehicles. They're only representative of auction vehicles.

And, the 3V mod motors roller followers are not an active part of a VVT system, yet they are still affected.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/19/21 08:11 PM

I beg to differ.

The same "shot-out" rule does not apply to the Crown Vics, Explorers, Tahoes that I see coming to auction with similar usage histories. Many are posted at the 10 year 100000 mile mark of fleet replacement that are still rip roaring ready to go. Of these various brands and models, the Crown Vic is unquestionably the sturdiest and least problematic at that 10y/100k auction point, which is something we all acknowledge.

I'm sorry if you are sensitive that your hemi might one day also develop the dreaded tick. Let's hope it doesn't.

All I can tell you is what I see at auction and what I hear from the half dozen or so fleet managers that I talk with. All moan about hemi camshaft, dodge control arms, Ford ecoboost turbos, the usual. Does this acknowledged flaw represent all the Hemi cars and trucks in general, or just the ones starved of oil at idle (meaning police fleets)? I can't comment on that. But it's quite well known in Ram trucks as well as cop chargers.

Clearly I'm not making up the hemi tick cam/lifter problem. The internet is absolutely chock full of mechanics and owners bewailing the issue and speculating on its source. Some say oil starvation, others say soft metal (which others shoot down with their laboratory hardness test data).

A quick perusal of the current Chargers currently at auction reveals that 9/10 on publicsurplus are inoperative with tow-away "unknown" issues. Govdeals has almost 100 chargers, with a good dozen 2015 or newer with low miles, low idle hours V8's that still look good, However more than half the postings command bids under $1000 for cars of unknown or unlisted problems that aren't running. The list of "CEL on, engine misfires, needs engine work or simply "unknown" is super long.

I also find it curious that the sellers with decent cars feel the need to post videos of the running hemi engine bay to prove it has no tick. Not something that is common with Crown Vics. But Charger sellers know that if they don't prove the negative, someone will ask them if it's ticking.

One fleet manager in North Carolina felt the need to disclose this for both of his two hemi V8's, both with 100K and 10,000 hours:

"Common problems with Charger v8 repairs over the life of this vehicle: both fuel pumps replaced, suspension arms replaced, camshaft replacement and cooling fans replaced (and maybe radiator)." Like everyone knows this stuff.

When questioned about how both cars had their camshaft replaced prior to 100K miles, he replied:

"A: The Chargers are sequential VIN numbers. Both have had the same problems over the years and have had nearly identical repairs. This one (Car 506) had a shifter issue that the other did not. I cannot recall any other significant differences. (2/11/21 9:40 AM)"

And at the same time you can go to the dead last page of Crown Vic auctions, you'll see ratty 20 year old panthers with virtually no paint left, 230,000 miles and auction listing will still say, "Will start with a boost." I saw one '92 for auction with a 150K for a couple of hundred bucks, still ran great they said. There's one 2006 with 181k owned by the CA Dept of Forestry that's up for $1. Probably runs just fine.

Of course, they all have bad paint.

Am I really saying something everyone doesn't already know?
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/19/21 08:57 PM

@Dmblanch perfectly stated. I'm observing the same thing here regarding charger listings vs vics.
Didn't think this thread would turn into an argument over whether hemis are prone to ticking or not. That seems pretty well established at this point. I think someone is just being defensive. whistle
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/20/21 01:10 AM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
I beg to differ.

The same "shot-out" rule does not apply to the Crown Vics, Explorers, Tahoes that I see coming to auction with similar usage histories. Many are posted at the 10 year 100000 mile mark of fleet replacement that are still rip roaring ready to go. Of these various brands and models, the Crown Vic is unquestionably the sturdiest and least problematic at that 10y/100k auction point, which is something we all acknowledge.

I'm sorry if you are sensitive that your hemi might one day also develop the dreaded tick. Let's hope it doesn't.

All I can tell you is what I see at auction and what I hear from the half dozen or so fleet managers that I talk with. All moan about hemi camshaft, dodge control arms, Ford ecoboost turbos, the usual. Does this acknowledged flaw represent all the Hemi cars and trucks in general, or just the ones starved of oil at idle (meaning police fleets)? I can't comment on that. But it's quite well known in Ram trucks as well as cop chargers.

Clearly I'm not making up the hemi tick cam/lifter problem. The internet is absolutely chock full of mechanics and owners bewailing the issue and speculating on its source. Some say oil starvation, others say soft metal (which others shoot down with their laboratory hardness test data).

A quick perusal of the current Chargers currently at auction reveals that 9/10 on publicsurplus are inoperative with tow-away "unknown" issues. Govdeals has almost 100 chargers, with a good dozen 2015 or newer with low miles, low idle hours V8's that still look good, However more than half the postings command bids under $1000 for cars of unknown or unlisted problems that aren't running. The list of "CEL on, engine misfires, needs engine work or simply "unknown" is super long.

I also find it curious that the sellers with decent cars feel the need to post videos of the running hemi engine bay to prove it has no tick. Not something that is common with Crown Vics. But Charger sellers know that if they don't prove the negative, someone will ask them if it's ticking.

One fleet manager in North Carolina felt the need to disclose this for both of his two hemi V8's, both with 100K and 10,000 hours:

"Common problems with Charger v8 repairs over the life of this vehicle: both fuel pumps replaced, suspension arms replaced, camshaft replacement and cooling fans replaced (and maybe radiator)." Like everyone knows this stuff.

When questioned about how both cars had their camshaft replaced prior to 100K miles, he replied:

"A: The Chargers are sequential VIN numbers. Both have had the same problems over the years and have had nearly identical repairs. This one (Car 506) had a shifter issue that the other did not. I cannot recall any other significant differences. (2/11/21 9:40 AM)"

And at the same time you can go to the dead last page of Crown Vic auctions, you'll see ratty 20 year old panthers with virtually no paint left, 230,000 miles and auction listing will still say, "Will start with a boost." I saw one '92 for auction with a 150K for a couple of hundred bucks, still ran great they said. There's one 2006 with 181k owned by the CA Dept of Forestry that's up for $1. Probably runs just fine.

Of course, they all have bad paint.

Am I really saying something everyone doesn't already know?



You clearly have a biast against Dodges and Hemis. I've seen the auctions too and while there's a high number of Chargers with issues there's also a higher number of chargers out there then others. That 75% is a joke. Right now only a small number of Chargers on govdeals have problems related to the cam and lifter issue. I counted about 17% or so. A lot of the cars have no real problems at all. When you look at the other police vehicles about the same percentage have problems and the majority of them are tow away or have issues because of bad battery. Many of the cars on there say they have been out of service for almost a year. A lot of Crown Vics are listed with problems too but I'm not holding that against them because a lot of them have been sitting for a while or only used occasionally or might have even just been kept around to steal the odd part off of.

The service people complain about any common problem. With Chargers it's cams. With the Fords it's transmissions and AC issues. With Crown Vics it was brakes, intakes and spark plugs spitting out and a higher number of transmision problems then other cars. With Ford trucks it's the plugs and cam phaser problem. A lot of vehiles in the past 10 years seem to have higher cam failures and other engine problems then they ever did before.
Posted by: a_d_a_m

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/22/21 10:09 AM

BUY IT NOW! Only $5k.

Posted by: 2011LX

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/22/21 10:21 AM

Originally Posted By a_d_a_m


LOL

He can ask whatever he wants. Actually selling the car is another thing!
Posted by: bluejay_32

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/22/21 12:25 PM

Originally Posted By a_d_a_m

rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl


Sorry, I'd go Arizona Beige before that. laugh
Posted by: GRMN_CV

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/24/21 04:56 AM

Originally Posted By a_d_a_m
[url=https://www.ebay.com/itm/1994-Ford-Crown-Victoria-POLICE-INTERCEPTOR/164716834620]BUY IT NOW! Only $5k.


You can bet your but still someone will buy it, Maaco paint it and sell it with profit. crazy2
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/26/21 08:25 PM

Further to the ongoing debate about the over-priced nature of Vics on the market these days and the dumping of ratty Chargers with Cam issues, two more items just popped up on my auction radar.

1) A 2011 P71 from the Arizona Department of Transportation, not a good seller, one who dumps vehicles with virtually no inspection or disclosure, just sold on Publicsurplus for $5300. Granted the car had only 54K miles, but it was white, had holes for the push bumper in the front fascia, had NO rear seat and NO rear door panels.

That's absolutely ri-goddamn-diculous.

$5300 Crown Vic P71 at auction

2) The city of Logan Utah, a seller from whom I have bought cars at auction three times in the past, just posted a 2012 Dodge Charger hemi which sets the record for earliest Cam failure that I've seen so far at only 57,000 miles. Since I know the fleet manager and I called him and asked him a few questions. First he said that this unit has relatively low idle hours at only 3000, but second and more importantly he said that they are purging all their Dodges from their fleet, regardless of mileage or age. If one comes in with even a hint of the hemi tick or throwing any cylinder misfire codes, on the chopping block it goes because they know that the fix is $4000 and it won't fix it. If it fails at 57K, they know it can easily fail again at 114K.

What are they replacing it with? Interceptors and Tahoes.

Hemi Cam Lifter failure at only 57K miles 3000 hours

Which brings me to my "beef" with Hemi Chargers, alluded to by 2007CrownVic above. Actually he stated it better than I could have, in that these Hemi's are commonly failing with the cam/lifter issue. That is a $4000 repair, which ain't no weekend DIY job. That's a big boy shop repair and last I checked there is NO 'bulletproofing' solution for this design problem, unlike with the Ford crappy diesel 6.0 and 6.4 engines. Their secondary common failure issues are, in order of frequency, control arm tie rod strut issues on the front end (about an $800 repair when I had to do it on BOTH 3.6 Chargers I bought) and power steering pump failure (a $475 part, but at least you can fix it yourself). All expensive issues on old used cop cars that one might consider buying at auction.

In contrast, consider what commonly fails on Crown Vics. Here's the sum total of my repairs on all eight cars listed in my signature:

1) 2002 - Bad peelformance white paint that I touched up with rattle cans, lights out on the dashboard, glitch in the HVAC electrical that meant it didn't like being in OFF position, changed the front brake pads DIY $40.
2) 2003 - Bad black and white paint that I repainted. Fluids low had to top them off before driving home. Bad battery $125. $25 window switch.
3) 2005 - Absolutely nothing.
4) 2011 - Transmission flush and new filter service $300. Window motor burned out $45 DIY, touched up bad paint DIY.
5) 2008 - $80 to fix short in wiring due to police decommissioning, just paid $200 after 5000 miles of use to replace oil cooler feeder hoses and connections, paint perfect.
6) 2005 - $40 to balance the tires, DIY touch up of bad peelformance white paint.
7) 2004 - $80 on pads and rotors DIY fix, $85 on new front wheel bearings DIY fix, $40 tire balancing. No paint issues on this silver car.
8) 2004 Sport - Bad paint on the roof, another $45 window motor.

So there you have it. You can buy a 100K Crown Vic with rock solid engine and crappy paint for $2K and have no major issues...

... or you can gamble $4-6k on a newer charger and risk another $5K in serious suspension and engine issues that plague just about every car as they hit 100k miles.
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 02/27/21 10:05 AM

The only real issue Charger wise is the high cost of the cam failure problem but if you do it yourself it can be done for well under $3,000 and surprisingly there are owners who've done little to no engine work before able to do it on their own. The majority of Chargers never have problems at all. Suspension problems also aren't that common in the 2011+ as they were earlier years. It happens but it also happens to other cars.

Back when Crown vics were the main police car at auctions there was about the same number of them going thru with bad transmissions, engine knocks or other major problems as there are Chargers with problems now. It goes with the territory being used as a police car.

There's a gamble buying a Charger at auction and honestly I wouldn't buy one unless you could absorb the potential repair cost into the price and still be ahead but I also wouldn't buy a a newer Interceptor either for the same reason. Crown Vics are a whole other animal. Of course they're the safer car to buy and cheaper to repair but they're a whole different generation of car with ancient engineering to car standards even when they were still being built. There's not going to be a car like them again especially police car wise.
Posted by: 2011LX

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 03/01/21 08:44 AM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch


So there you have it. You can buy a 100K Crown Vic with rock solid engine and crappy paint for $2K and have no major issues...

... or you can gamble $4-6k on a newer charger and risk another $5K in serious suspension and engine issues that plague just about every car as they hit 100k miles.


You must be new to the scene if you can't shop well enough to avoid a vehicle with engine or suspension issues. We here have gone through quite a few different makes/models of auction vehicles with no large issues. At the same time, none of them have been the quality of vehicle I'd like to DD.

:shrug:

To carry on: Meanwhile, I had to replace the intake manifold and the entire HVAC plenum before my Crown Vic reached 100k miles. Just those two items along are a couple of "g's" in repairs if I hadn't done them myself. And we all know these cars have other weak points like timing chain sets, exhaust manifold leaks, transmission failures, axle bearing/seal failures, none of which are cheap repairs. That doesn't include the missing/rotten rockers and fenders we get up here in the midwest, where the Exploders, Tahoes, and Chargers are all pretty decent looking.

Again, all of these vehicles we've been discussing have their nuances. That's just the way it is. However, in my experience, none of them are common enough to condemn the vehicles entirely. Zillions of original 5.3 LS, 5.7 Hemi, 5.4 3V Ford running around on original equipment.
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 03/01/21 06:23 PM

I was bidding on this KPD car last week. 121k miles, won't come out of park, warning lights on the dash, and a wreck of an interior. Sold for 1700 out the door.
And I felt like a chump entering my top bid of $1100.


One positive thing I noticed about the interior is that they left the partition brackets in place instead of removing the seatbelts and destroying the b pillar trim to remove them.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 03/08/21 12:47 AM

Originally Posted By 2011LX

You must be new to the scene if you can't shop well enough to avoid a vehicle with engine or suspension issues. We here have gone through quite a few different makes/models of auction vehicles with no large issues. At the same time, none of them have been the quality of vehicle I'd like to DD.

:shrug:

To carry on: Meanwhile, I had to replace the intake manifold and the entire HVAC plenum before my Crown Vic reached 100k miles. Just those two items along are a couple of "g's" in repairs if I hadn't done them myself. And we all know these cars have other weak points like timing chain sets, exhaust manifold leaks, transmission failures, axle bearing/seal failures, none of which are cheap repairs. That doesn't include the missing/rotten rockers and fenders we get up here in the midwest, where the Exploders, Tahoes, and Chargers are all pretty decent looking.

Again, all of these vehicles we've been discussing have their nuances. That's just the way it is. However, in my experience, none of them are common enough to condemn the vehicles entirely. Zillions of original 5.3 LS, 5.7 Hemi, 5.4 3V Ford running around on original equipment.


Yeah, I must be new to the scene and not know what I'm doing, as evidenced by the 8 crown vics in my signature, plus the 2 chargers and 3 explorers I've flipped in the past three years and the biggest repair I've had to do on any of them was the control arms and tie rods on the two Chargers.

Or could it be that I haven't lost my shirt precisely because I buy cars without problems. And could the avoidance of ticking hemi's have something to do with that?

Things that make you go hmmmm.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 03/08/21 12:51 AM

Originally Posted By 2011LX
Originally Posted By a_d_a_m


LOL

He can ask whatever he wants. Actually selling the car is another thing!


Actual selling price was $1,500
Posted by: Huhnigan

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 03/08/21 01:14 PM

Good luck buying P71s in FL again. Ol' Cleetus just snagged 20 more hahahaha.
Posted by: TheNarrator

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 03/08/21 01:48 PM

Lazily made by yours truly(and may or may not be accurate to the situation):
Posted by: Huhnigan

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 03/08/21 02:48 PM

HAHAHAHAHA!
*takes deep breath*
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 03/08/21 10:00 PM

Originally Posted By Huhnigan
Good luck buying P71s in FL again. Ol' Cleetus just snagged 20 more hahahaha.


25.

Poor cars.
Posted by: professorP7B

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 03/09/21 08:49 AM

Originally Posted By 2007CrownVic
Originally Posted By Huhnigan
Good luck buying P71s in FL again. Ol' Cleetus just snagged 20 more hahahaha.


25.

Poor cars.


Glad to see I'm not the only one who isn't fond of this particularly wasteful shenanigan.
Posted by: bluejay_32

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 03/09/21 08:55 AM

I cringe every time I see cop cars getting wrecked in a movie.
Posted by: Huhnigan

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 03/09/21 09:21 AM

Originally Posted By bluejay_32
I cringe every time I see cop cars getting wrecked in a movie.


Can we at least wreck all the Holden Caprices? They all have valve train knock anyways.
Posted by: TheNarrator

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 03/09/21 10:05 AM

Originally Posted By professorP7B
Originally Posted By 2007CrownVic
Originally Posted By Huhnigan
Good luck buying P71s in FL again. Ol' Cleetus just snagged 20 more hahahaha.


25.

Poor cars.


Glad to see I'm not the only one who isn't fond of this particularly wasteful shenanigan.

Make that three of us. chainsaw
Posted by: DudeAbides

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 03/09/21 12:35 PM

Meh, white P71's are a dime a dozen. That fleet only costs 21¢.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 03/09/21 07:47 PM

Further to the original thread, I just sold my silver 2004 "detective's" P71 (meaning it had carpet) for $4100. It had 104,000.

Total time on the want-ads site - 16 hours.
Number of legitimate inquiries in that time - 6.
Number of customers who looked at it - 1, the first guy, who paid full asking price with no hesitation.

So did I sell it too cheap? I didn't think so, but probably. It went for more money than my 2011 black car with 92K miles. The target number just seems to keep moving upwards, but then so is the price I'm paying for them when I get them. Meanwhile the cars keep getting older.
Posted by: Huhnigan

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 03/10/21 01:55 PM

Doug Demuro just posted a video on his "Cars and Bids" channel on youtube talking about some of the recent "best buys" on his site and he mentioned a 2004 Town Car with 8,000 miles that sold for $12,400. Even he thinks mint Panther cars could appreciate in the coming years.

(go to 7:42 in the video)


Link to the auction:
https://carsandbids.com/auctions/9ebxloAk/2004-lincoln-town-car-ultimate
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 03/10/21 03:59 PM

With that in mind and stimulus checks on the horizon, I didn't hesitate. I bought my ninth P71 at auction earlier this morning. I had to bid a little higher than I normally do, paying $2450 for a white SAP with 106K miles, great paint, and no mechanical issues.

A little bit of cleaning and I'll try to flip it for about $4500 before the end of the month.
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 03/10/21 09:30 PM

Originally Posted By Huhnigan
Doug Demuro just posted a video on his "Cars and Bids" channel on youtube talking about some of the recent "best buys" on his site and he mentioned a 2004 Town Car with 8,000 miles that sold for $12,400. Even he thinks mint Panther cars could appreciate in the coming years.

(go to 7:42 in the video)


Link to the auction:
https://carsandbids.com/auctions/9ebxloAk/2004-lincoln-town-car-ultimate


If it wasn't for the roof it would be a pretty nice car!
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 03/19/21 05:26 PM

I want to buy another P71, and I've bid on a handful, but I haven't yet pushed myself to pay the price they're currently commanding.
5.7 hemi charger. 87k miles. CEL. Needs cam, lifters, and control arms. Imagine that.
https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=349&acctid=415
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 03/20/21 02:03 AM

Originally Posted By Tenevic_P71
I want to buy another P71, and I've bid on a handful, but I haven't yet pushed myself to pay the price they're currently commanding.
5.7 hemi charger. 87k miles. CEL. Needs cam, lifters, and control arms. Imagine that.
https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=349&acctid=415


Buy a $1000 Hemi Charger... it only needs $5000 of cams, lifters, control arms and tie rods.
Buy a $1000 Vic... needs a battery and four cans of spray paint.
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 03/21/21 12:36 AM

Bought a Vic, needed no work.
Bought a Hemi Charger with more mileage. Needed minimal work.
Been happy with both smile
Posted by: RipWixomAssembly

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 03/23/21 03:28 PM

Ooh. Not bad for an SAP. I've seen them go up to around 3 grand quite a few times before.
Posted by: GM_Guy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 03/25/21 05:59 PM

Something I used to do, probably should do it again, was making note of vin#s (and a photo) and later on googling some randomnly.

Funny how a black and white patrol car suddenly turns into a black OR white "detective" car at some of the popular cop car dealerships with some b.s. about being one color, detective car, no cage, and the original aution photo is decidely a decaled patrol car with a cage and light bar. Or a car that had a bit of body damage shows up with some similar line of b.s.
Bit of elbow grease and parts swapping gets you a good ad, toss in the gullible and they got a tidy profit.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 03/25/21 11:44 PM

This week I've been following five Crown Vic auctions offered by the city of Monterrey, CA. These are what I'd call "nice" cars from 2004, 2007 and 2009, two of them are P74's and three are P71 black and whites being offered with full cages and all their gear intact. The LX's have about 90K miles and the P71's about 75K with no serious mechanical issues or bad paint anywhere.

They all close tomorrow, the LX's are already over $3500 and should push $4500 or $5000, the P71's will go over $3K. This is about $1000 more per car than I've been used to seeing in past auctions. No meat left on the bone for me.
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 03/26/21 01:50 AM

Originally Posted By GM_Guy
Something I used to do, probably should do it again, was making note of vin#s (and a photo) and later on googling some randomnly.

Funny how a black and white patrol car suddenly turns into a black OR white "detective" car at some of the popular cop car dealerships with some b.s. about being one color, detective car, no cage, and the original aution photo is decidely a decaled patrol car with a cage and light bar. Or a car that had a bit of body damage shows up with some similar line of b.s.
Bit of elbow grease and parts swapping gets you a good ad, toss in the gullible and they got a tidy profit.


Funny too that a lot number of those same cars have new looking black carpet.
Sometimes a bit of damage is putting it lightly and the before pictures show the whole side was smashed in or the front looked like they drove full speed into a wall.
Posted by: GRMN_CV

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 03/26/21 04:55 AM

Originally Posted By GM_Guy
Something I used to do, probably should do it again, was making note of vin#s (and a photo) and later on googling some randomnly.

Funny how a black and white patrol car suddenly turns into a black OR white "detective" car at some of the popular cop car dealerships with some b.s. about being one color, detective car, no cage, and the original aution photo is decidely a decaled patrol car with a cage and light bar. Or a car that had a bit of body damage shows up with some similar line of b.s.
Bit of elbow grease and parts swapping gets you a good ad, toss in the gullible and they got a tidy profit.



Can confirm. Found a lot of those dealers stating BS. Even found a decent CV in Texas, but it had somewhat 140k mls. several weeks later I could swear same car (condition of seats and some atypical stickers) appears in FL with 100k mls. Unfortunately I did not save the TX auction pictures to prove.

Also most dealers tend to 300$ Maaco paint it and sell as black detective car/chief take home car.

Really sucks when you are searching for a clean car.
Posted by: 2011LX

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 03/26/21 08:04 AM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Originally Posted By Tenevic_P71
I want to buy another P71, and I've bid on a handful, but I haven't yet pushed myself to pay the price they're currently commanding.
5.7 hemi charger. 87k miles. CEL. Needs cam, lifters, and control arms. Imagine that.
https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=349&acctid=415


Buy a $1000 Hemi Charger... it only needs $5000 of cams, lifters, control arms and tie rods.
Buy a $1000 Vic... needs a battery and four cans of spray paint.


Buy a Charger and fix it up...you have a desirable car worth good money. Easy sell, easy profit.
Buy a Crown Vic and fix it up... take 6 months to sell it because those interested are looking for a Charger or a Tahoe. Barely make a profit.

XD
Posted by: metro21

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 03/27/21 07:05 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
This week I've been following five Crown Vic auctions offered by the city of Monterrey, CA. These are what I'd call "nice" cars from 2004, 2007 and 2009, two of them are P74's and three are P71 black and whites being offered with full cages and all their gear intact. The LX's have about 90K miles and the P71's about 75K with no serious mechanical issues or bad paint anywhere.

They all close tomorrow, the LX's are already over $3500 and should push $4500 or $5000, the P71's will go over $3K. This is about $1000 more per car than I've been used to seeing in past auctions. No meat left on the bone for me.


I saw those too. Monterey is a few hours from me so doable plus I love that area in general. Even the LX's looked like they would need quite a bit of work. I don't know how it makes financial sense for you to come from UT or do transport and still make any decent worthwhile profit- especially right now when used car prices are higher than normal.
Posted by: GM_Guy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 03/28/21 09:39 AM

Originally Posted By 2007CrownVic

Funny too that a lot number of those same cars have new looking black carpet.
Sometimes a bit of damage is putting it lightly and the before pictures show the whole side was smashed in or the front looked like they drove full speed into a wall.


As long as they keep selling for ridiculous money, those stipped out auction cars above will keep selling. The guy who owns a body shop to r&r something like this to flip on their used car lot (theres a few shops here in town owned by the same guy, body shop, repair shop, used car lots) whose investment is really peanuts in spit polishing a turd. Given how easy a lot of work is on these they can knock it out fast and stick it out on their lot for a good profit.


Originally Posted By GRMN_CV

Can confirm. Found a lot of those dealers stating BS. Even found a decent CV in Texas, but it had somewhat 140k mls. several weeks later I could swear same car (condition of seats and some atypical stickers) appears in FL with 100k mls. Unfortunately I did not save the TX auction pictures to prove.

Also most dealers tend to 300$ Maaco paint it and sell as black detective car/chief take home car.

Really sucks when you are searching for a clean car.


Any base cluster, cv or gm you can't really trust the mileage because of the flakey cluster. I've got three 2008+ clusters here when I was looking into what causes them to die and a digital GM cluster. I've got mileage from 75k to 400+k (taxi one that got moved to different cars as needed based on the masking tape notes on the back). I'd be willing to guess that somebody rehabing clusters has a lot more than three on a shelf. Whoever gets their hands on Cleetuses discards also has a gold mine of parts on their hands. Never trust an odometer high or low in a cvpi given how often cluster issues came up with them.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 03/28/21 04:00 PM

Buy a charger fix it up... make no profit because you've spent $5,000 "fixing" it, and your fixes won't last because they're fundamental design flaws.

Buy a Vic with no serious problems for $2K, put $250 in minor cosmetic tweaks on it, sell it inside of 30 days for $4k, rinse and repeat, as I've done 7 times so far.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 03/28/21 04:11 PM

On the new carpet issue... I suspect that's simply due to the fact that you can buy a whole new molded CV carpet floor in a dozen colors for just $165 shipped. Fit is only pretty good, not superb, but CV carpets are never superb to begin with. Once the seats are on and a center console is installed, they're fine.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 03/28/21 06:43 PM

Originally Posted By metro21


I saw those too. Monterey is a few hours from me so doable plus I love that area in general. Even the LX's looked like they would need quite a bit of work. I don't know how it makes financial sense for you to come from UT or do transport and still make any decent worthwhile profit- especially right now when used car prices are higher than normal.


Oh no, it doesn't make ANY sense for me to buy any of those cars. I cited them not as examples of the cars I buy, but as examples of the absurdly high prices that Vics are going for these days. I didn't come close to winning (or even placing final bids) on any of the five. My caps for B&W's would have been <$1500 for the B&W's and less than $2500 for the LX's. (And need I mention, if they had been cars I had been trying to buy, you wouldn't have heard about them from me.)

Although I do disagree with your assessment of their relative conditions. I thought they were all pretty good in comparison to their available peers. A 2009 B&W with decent paint and no body damage and under 75K miles? That's a pretty solid platform. The LX's were a little older, but didn't have big cosmetic issues. One had a good leather interior.

But NONE made any financial sense for me at the prices they eventually sold at. If I would have won one, at my price, I would have flown out one way and driven it back, costing me about $200 to $300 all in. Clean it, fix minor issues and its a $4K to $4500 car in this market. If I'd have won 2 or 3, I would have had them all shipped together and that would have run about $500 each. So you see why my caps are set where they are. Any higher and I don't make money.

Naturally, I don't win very many auctions because I set my caps so low. I probably look at 100 auctions, to bid on 10, to only win 1 or 2. I keep trying to win a good older F-150 but I can't ever win any auctions on those at good prices. My own hometown just auctioned 3 Cop Caprices, one with the V8 engine, and all three went for retail or ABOVE retail. Absurd prices for beat up, undesirable, paint faded older cop cars with 100K miles.

I admit, I am cheap. I never buy retail, I've never paid more than $2500 for a Vic, never bought one with more than 111K miles. I have paid much more for cop Chargers, Explorers, Tahoes, etc, but then they sell for more too.

And I have the luxury to travel long distances to pick up cars I want. I've gone as far from SLC as Ventura, CA and Everett Washington. I just almost bought a ticket to South Carolina to drive back an armored car this week, but we decided to ship it instead.

One way flights are surprisingly cheap if you use Skiplagged.com and you take no baggage. I think the cheapest flight I took was Provo, UT to LAX for $49. Three tanks of gas coming home and I was back the next day. And here's the thing about Crown Vics... they always manage to limp home without disaster.

I buy cars I can get to one-way with public transportation, then drive them home. The last two Vics I've bought from different cities than my own will have cost $7.60 and $9.50 respectively to retrieve on the train/bus system. Neither one will I have ever bought gas for, I drove them both home on the tanks they came with and sold them without a refill.

The car before that was a pricey one. 2014 Explorer from Tacoma for $5500. $125 Alaskan Air non-stop one-way ticket got me to the seller by 11:00 am, had a full tank, drove it home via Portland a $45 motel stay in La Grande, OR overnight, got home the day after 3 more tanks of gas. So that cost me maybe $250 to fetch? Sold the car for $10,500.

Granted my hobby isn't for everyone, especially not for guys with a wife and kids and 9 to 5 job. But for guys like me, it's a helluva lot more fun than just playing golf.
Posted by: bluejay_32

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 03/29/21 12:11 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
On the new carpet issue... I suspect that's simply due to the fact that you can buy a whole new molded CV carpet floor in a dozen colors for just $165 shipped. Fit is only pretty good, not superb, but CV carpets are never superb to begin with. Once the seats are on and a center console is installed, they're fine.

Can confirm. I did exactly this. Fits pretty good; a little squishy where I had to stuff a bunch of rags on top of the centre vent because the fit wasn't so good.
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 03/29/21 01:02 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Buy a charger fix it up... make no profit because you've spent $5,000 "fixing" it, and your fixes won't last because they're fundamental design flaws.

Buy a Vic with no serious problems for $2K, put $250 in minor cosmetic tweaks on it, sell it inside of 30 days for $4k, rinse and repeat, as I've done 7 times so far.


Chargers don't have any more fundamental design flaws then Crown Vics. They are however a more refined modern car with more to go wrong then Crown Vics and between the two Crown Vics are a far more safer bet for the auction buy and flip game. If for no other reason because they're cheaper, they're easier to fix and parts are cheaper and easier to find for them as well.

Are auction Chargers worth buying to sell? Usually no because the profit margin is too low and if it develops problems before you sell it you're loosing money. Are Crown Vics worth it? Yes because even worst case it needs an engine or transmission they're cheap enough to find that at least you can break even.
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/03/21 07:09 PM

Just placed a bid on a 3.5 charger and immediately regretted it.
Posted by: Old_Guy_Stu

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/04/21 08:00 AM

Yeah, the 3.5 is kind of a turd. 3.6 is way better, but still not without problems.
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/04/21 06:21 PM

Looking at NYPD surplus on property room. These cars are so beat up. They take the fascia and tail lights off of most of their surplus cars too.
2012 Impala , 39k miles, CEL, missing front end, generally beat up and torn apart.

2015 Taurus 67k miles, same story.
Clearly being an NYPD patrol car is an ill fate for a vehicle. What a toilet that lot is.
Posted by: GM_Guy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/05/21 12:17 PM

Man, those things are beat. Surprised the cv's listed seem to be in (mostly) one peice.
Posted by: VoodooChild

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/05/21 12:27 PM

Man, there was an 08 P71 over here on auction the other week. All it needed was a shifter cable and a cluster, around 80k. Red and silver orero (Ala Lincoln RI police), but it went for $650. Shoulda snatched that up as a project car. I bid until like $625 too damnit.
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/05/21 07:58 PM

Originally Posted By VoodooChild
Man, there was an 08 P71 over here on auction the other week. All it needed was a shifter cable and a cluster, around 80k. Red and silver orero (Ala Lincoln RI police), but it went for $650. Shoulda snatched that up as a project car. I bid until like $625 too damnit.


Do you get that strange feeling of regret too when that happens? There are some cars that I just barely missed I'll never forget.
Posted by: VoodooChild

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/05/21 08:23 PM

Yep I know exactly what you mean. Dude this thing was a cherry too, I was stupid not to go all in. It was an emergency response unit that didn't get driven much and looked like there wasn't a speck of rust.

Oh well, onto other things I suppose. Take the prior experiences as a mental note for next time
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/05/21 09:03 PM

Originally Posted By 2007CrownVic
Do you get that strange feeling of regret too when that happens? There are some cars that I just barely missed I'll never forget.

Yes exactly. There are some cars like VoodooChild describes that I missed and will never forget.
But lately I've experienced the opposite bidding online. I usually bust out laughing when I see the closing price is 2-3x what I was considering.
Like that Charger I bidded on. 13 year old, 166k mile 3.5 V6 stripper ex-patrol car that is in unknown mechanical condition besides "starts with boost."
And get this, $4200 out the door! Ahahahahahahahahaha
Govdeals executives must be laughing their way to the bank. I think I may as well just remove that site from my favorites, its completely busted.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/06/21 04:11 PM

What you describe is so so common on Charger auctions and GovDeals auctions in particular. Causing me to go WTF all the time!

I bid on PS, GovPlanet, and GovDeals regularly, my last purchase was a '10 P71 on GovDeals for 2125. Just picked it up yesterday, fine car drives well, no lag no rattles no pulls, 104K miles, half-SAP sort of good civilian driver ex-P71. Couple of paint rubs easily fixed, clean the interior, and it's good to go.

But that said, my eye suspects shill bidding in many many GovDeals auctions, much more so than Public Surplus, but not nearly as much as with live auctions. That's my main complaint with live auctions, the shills floating in the crowd who are sizing you up to see how high they can push you.

I tend to see more suspicious bids on GovDeals. Bids that go too high with too much time left on the clock. Undercutting bids when a rube bids too high on the last day, last hour, designed to jack his pay price up but not win. Cars that "sell" for too high, then are back on the market the next week. That sort of thing. I usually have to be very sly on GovDeals and always always on line in the last minutes if I want to win.

The city I live in definitely is doing something hinky with its auctions. I've never won a single one because they always "sell" for too much money. Usually the reserve prices are at retail or even higher. They just "sold" 3 2010-2013 Caprices on Public Surplus for way too much money because these are not desirable cars. The V6's went over 4 and the V8 over 6. Beat to crap cosmetically. This was 3 weeks ago and the cars are still sitting on the city lot. What sort of auction sale doesn't make you pick your cars up within about 10 days?

What I suspect is going on is a "no sale, didn't meet the reserve" switcheroo, in which the city agent places an absurdly high reserve based on some sort of high-end retail KBB calculation. This burns off all the real auction interest as ever higher bids go past normal wholesale prices and still fail to reveal the reserve. This clears the path for a shill buyer, an insider friend of the city agent who places the final "non-winning" bid at the very end of the auction, already knowing what all the other bids are from communication from the city agent conspirator.

This gives the shill the right of first refusal, and the city agent can opt to sell, or not, for the losing best reserve price, OR another price if agreed upon. The shill merely declares that "the car has additional faults" when they come for inspection, therefore they can't pay X as they bid on it, they must instead pay X-$1000, etc.. Conspirator city agent agrees, justifies it to her bosses that that's the best she could get, car is sold off and conspirators split the profits.

But in fairness, it was a GovDeals auction out of South Carolina where I won my armored car. My partner and I suspected all sorts of hinky monkey business with that one because it had like 6,000 views before closing and over a dozen questions from bidders across the country and even Canada. In the end, the seller goofed by scheduling the auction to close at 8:30 AM EST and no one got about of bed for it. We pulled all of my last minute tricks to fool the shills and outfox the competition and in the end won it for about $2500 less than we were willing to pay.

So even though I hate GovDeals, I have to admit that four out of my last five gets (2014 Explorer, 2 - 2010 Vics, and Armored Car) have been lower-than-expected GovDeals wins.

What I REALLY hate are the 20% fees the "live" auction lots are charging these days.
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/06/21 11:54 PM

The shill bidding gets old. In one hand it makes you wonder why the auction places allow it to happen when it's obvious what's going on but then again if it does sell higher because of it they make more money and with online auction it's not that much work for them to re-list cars when the buyer doesn't follow thru.


Originally Posted By VoodooChild
Yep I know exactly what you mean. Dude this thing was a cherry too, I was stupid not to go all in. It was an emergency response unit that didn't get driven much and looked like there wasn't a speck of rust.

Oh well, onto other things I suppose. Take the prior experiences as a mental note for next time


That's what I did when I got my good P71. It went for more then I had planned on spending but I suddenly thought I might not get the chance to get one that nice again so I kept going. Then that other feeling hit- the WTF did I just do one. But that faded pretty quick LOL. It's still one of my favorite cars I have.



Originally Posted By Tenevic_P71
Originally Posted By 2007CrownVic
Do you get that strange feeling of regret too when that happens? There are some cars that I just barely missed I'll never forget.

Yes exactly. There are some cars like VoodooChild describes that I missed and will never forget.
But lately I've experienced the opposite bidding online. I usually bust out laughing when I see the closing price is 2-3x what I was considering.
Like that Charger I bidded on. 13 year old, 166k mile 3.5 V6 stripper ex-patrol car that is in unknown mechanical condition besides "starts with boost."
And get this, $4200 out the door! Ahahahahahahahahaha
Govdeals executives must be laughing their way to the bank. I think I may as well just remove that site from my favorites, its completely busted.



Yep, sometimes you have to wonder what people are thinking. What I really don't get is the people who over pay for normal cars that are everywhere. Like when you see a minivan with no rocker panels sell for more then what you could buy it for from a private seller and get the chance to actually test drive it!
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/08/21 10:47 AM

The shill bidding is allowed to happen because it is the auction houses themselves that are doing it. The Cui Bono rule is in full effect here.
Posted by: GM_Guy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/08/21 06:47 PM

A friend and I who bid online at a local auction house, we don't prebid anything anymore. What we noticed is that the bids always get run up ahead of time and we are topped out at our limit. Can't tell me there are so many randomn bidders with the same top dollar in mind, especially when you do non-typical bid amounts. Somebody on the inside is running them up early, and hoping for a bidding war to push it even higher during the final hours.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/08/21 09:10 PM

Egg-zackully.

Your only defense, either in person or on-line, is to NEVER bid early. You must be present for the close of auction and you only bid as the clock is expiring. With PS you first bid must hit the books between 5:30 to the close of auction and 5:00 to the close. With Govdeals, the clock is different, it must hit between 3:30 and 3:00 minutes to close, but Govdeals has less clicks to process to submit a bid, so you can get them in faster.

And with both you must manually refresh your screen to see updates.

With live auctions I also NEVER inspect the car the day of auction, it signals to the shills what you're interested in. I go early and try to disguise the vehicles I like.

Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/15/21 12:50 AM

Further to the thread of rising prices, I note this blue 2009 SAP out of Washington that has hit $3500 with five days to go on its auction. Will likely reach 5k.

Yes, it's nice and its an SAP with only 246 hours against 101k miles, but still...

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=17784&acctid=8445
Posted by: 2011LX

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/15/21 08:16 AM

I don't know...I still think you guys are all just out of touch with what vehicles cost now.

Take a look at what else is out there for $3500, and you'll realize that the price of these Crown Vics aren't "inflated". It's just that cheap cars don't go as low in price as they used to. A $5k car IS a cheap car.

The insane surge new car market over the last 5 years has boosted the used car market. EVERYTHING is "inflated".
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/15/21 10:07 PM

Yeah, that's probably true. Either way, inflation is inflation and my perception of higher prices isn't based on my foggy memories from decades past... it's based on what I paid for the same cars last year and the year before.

And BTW, the SAP I cited above is now at $4250 with four days to go. It may hit 6k. At wholesale auction.
Posted by: professorP7B

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/16/21 07:58 PM

Quote:
it's based on what I paid for the same cars last year and the year before.


Used car prices have sky-rocketed in the past year thanks to new car market COVID shortages. These prices are the new normal for now. Inflated they may be, but Crown Vic or not these are the prices used cars are going for right now.
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/18/21 09:50 PM

Those of you who have purchased cars online, what is the furthest you have driven a car home after purchasing it with no prior inspection? Broadening my auction search and wondering how far is practical. Seems like it would be pretty wild to take a flight to pick up a car and drive it back. But what happens if it breaks down on the way? You're [censored]?
I was not aware of shill bidding. I guess it shows my naivete, assuming it is just fools overpaying, instead of something shady involving the auction house.


Originally Posted By 2011LX
I don't know...I still think you guys are all just out of touch with what vehicles cost now.

Take a look at what else is out there for $3500, and you'll realize that the price of these Crown Vics aren't "inflated". It's just that cheap cars don't go as low in price as they used to. A $5k car IS a cheap car.

The insane surge new car market over the last 5 years has boosted the used car market. EVERYTHING is "inflated".

Maybe we are out of touch. I understand that all used car prices are up, but I think crown vics are somehow disproportionately affected and increased more.
We could also talk all day about pickup truck prices.
Posted by: Joerg68

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/19/21 02:36 AM

Quote:
what is the furthest you have driven a car home after purchasing it with no prior inspection?


Not driven home... In 2019, I bought my current P71 via ebay from San Diego and had it shipped to Germany. The car was in good shape, rust free, and has been mechanically sound. If it weren't for the 24 (!) "New Car Scent" trees that the seller had distributed strategically throughout the vehicle, and that have left a very strong odour even 2 years later, it would have been perfect.
It was the third car/truck I have bought on the internet, after a P74 from Ohio (also ebay, 2012) and an F350 from Michigan (autotrader, 2017). Not a problem with either one, but the P74 was almost drowned by hurricane Sandy.
Posted by: FLGuy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/19/21 02:55 AM

When see some of these prices now is no question I feel pretty good about paying 4,000 for mine .. A Neighbor who I consider a friend bought the 2011 Crown Vic that I now have at an Orlando Police Auction for 1,500 I think it was .. Drove it close to a year with no issues then had to replace the Intake Manifold which he was able to do at that time then had some health issues but wanted to keep it as back up vehicle .. But then unknown to him his Transmission Heat Exchanger (Cooler) got plugged and ended up having to replace the Transmission .. Which cost him close to 3 Grand total .. Offered it up to me for $4,000 and I bought it .. Been a year and almost 10,000 miles since got it with no regrets on the price I paid .. But since then I have seen some crazy prices on some of them all the way back 1998 selling for a lot more than $4,000 ..
Posted by: DC_Dave

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/19/21 07:33 AM

There's nothing wrong with P71 prices that $5/gal gas can't fix.
Posted by: Prospect62

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/19/21 07:47 AM

Originally Posted By Tenevic_P71
Those of you who have purchased cars online, what is the furthest you have driven a car home after purchasing it with no prior inspection? Broadening my auction search and wondering how far is practical. Seems like it would be pretty wild to take a flight to pick up a car and drive it back. But what happens if it breaks down on the way? You're [censored]?
I was not aware of shill bidding. I guess it shows my naivete, assuming it is just fools overpaying, instead of something shady involving the auction house.


Originally Posted By 2011LX
I don't know...I still think you guys are all just out of touch with what vehicles cost now.

Take a look at what else is out there for $3500, and you'll realize that the price of these Crown Vics aren't "inflated". It's just that cheap cars don't go as low in price as they used to. A $5k car IS a cheap car.

The insane surge new car market over the last 5 years has boosted the used car market. EVERYTHING is "inflated".

Maybe we are out of touch. I understand that all used car prices are up, but I think crown vics are somehow disproportionately affected and increased more.
We could also talk all day about pickup truck prices.


I had my car shipped across the country (from Arizona to New York) for $1200. Bought it sight unseen and it is the best Crown Vic I've ever owned. The cost to ship it will be easily recouped if/when I ever sell the car as Crown Vics this clean don't exist on the east coast.

I wouldn't hesitate to do it again (shipping a car), but I don't know if I'd ever fly somewhere and drive back. Number one, who the hell has the time for that and number two, even a small mechanical issue could leave you stranded WAY too far away from home.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/19/21 05:42 PM

I have bought over 2 dozen vehicles from online internet auctions, all sight unseen.

The furthest I've ever had one shipped was the Armored car/SWAT van that I just purchased from South Carolina, shipped to Utah, over 2000 miles. Old Ford diesel engine, runs and drives, tires still holding air. Shipping costs were more than the purchase price for this 22,000 lb rolling tank, but most of the time I DO NOT SHIP CARS. I fly in one-way using Skiplagged and drive them home. Never once broken down.

From Utah, I've traveled to Everett Washington and Ventura, California to pick up cars, so those would be my furthest gets at 850 and 750 miles, respectively. My search parameters on my auction sites are currently set to 800 miles.

That said, four of the last five cars I've purchased on line have been in the state of Utah and have cost me $12.20, $0, $12,20 and $12.20 to fetch using public transportation. The one out of state pick-up, from Seattle cost me about $240 including gas for the ride back.

I generally draw the line at no cars past the Front Range of Colorado. Not because of distance, but because that's where hail damage starts.
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/19/21 10:28 PM

Originally Posted By Joerg68
If it weren't for the 24 (!) "New Car Scent" trees that the seller had distributed strategically throughout the vehicle, and that have left a very strong odour even 2 years later, it would have been perfect.

Man that would've had me ticked off! Those things are strong and smell nothing like a new car to my nose.

Originally Posted By Prospect62
I wouldn't hesitate to do it again (shipping a car), but I don't know if I'd ever fly somewhere and drive back. Number one, who the hell has the time for that and number two, even a small mechanical issue could leave you stranded WAY too far away from home.

Who has time for that? I think it would be time well spent going on a road trip to pay myself whatever shipping would have cost.
But that's assuming the car is mechanically sound. And I'm not a dealer so I'd be going with no plates.
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/19/21 10:34 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
I have bought over 2 dozen vehicles from online internet auctions, all sight unseen.

The furthest I've ever had one shipped was the Armored car/SWAT van that I just purchased from South Carolina, shipped to Utah, over 2000 miles. Old Ford diesel engine, runs and drives, tires still holding air. Shipping costs were more than the purchase price for this 22,000 lb rolling tank, but most of the time I DO NOT SHIP CARS. I fly in one-way using Skiplagged and drive them home. Never once broken down.

From Utah, I've traveled to Everett Washington and Ventura, California to pick up cars, so those would be my furthest gets at 850 and 750 miles, respectively. My search parameters on my auction sites are currently set to 800 miles.

That said, four of the last five cars I've purchased on line have been in the state of Utah and have cost me $12.20, $0, $12,20 and $12.20 to fetch using public transportation. The one out of state pick-up, from Seattle cost me about $240 including gas for the ride back.

Ever have any issues while driving a car back? Do you bring a dealer plate with you?
Furthest I've driven is 70 miles on the return trip for a sight-unseen vic with no plates. That was with a dead misfire on cylinder 2 and a hotwired cooling fan.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/20/21 02:12 AM

Good questions about the plates. No, I'm not a dealer and I don't go to dealer auctions. Many of these vehicles are still in use as movie rentals. So I pay sales tax when they charge me tax, which is a very spotty, hit and miss affair. Sometimes they don't, sometimes they do, sometimes they refund it afterwards, I can never tell.

I only participate in auctions open to the full public. PublicSurplus, GovDeals, GovPlanet/Ritchie Bros, CoPart and other houses that do online auctions. They all have their quirks and strengths, but I greatly prefer on-line auctions to live auctions (when they still had them before Covid) for these reasons:
1) Disclosure of flaws is better, because often the owning agency is the seller and the liquidating agent is a govt. employee with no vested interest in boosting the price. No middleman who can claim ignorance.
2) Less time spent to scrutinize more vehicles. On any given day I'm scanning hundreds of vehicles, 1 out of 20 of those may make my watch list. 1 out of 10 of those may get bid upon. And I lose 4 out of 5 auctions I bid on. But I'm very picky and usually I screen out all iffy vehicles before I bid on them.
3) Easier to spot and defend yourself against shill bidders.

Out of all the vehicles I've bought, I think I only went and inspected them ahead of auction two or three times. I just did it again on a lot of about 8 Chevy Vans that I needed to buy 3 identical models for a movie (2 of which were going to get destroyed). I had a contact with a fleet manager for a vanpool fleet and sure enough he had a bunch that he needed to liquidate, all Chevy 6.0 15 passengers from 2006-2009. I went up to look at them, all were in good shape, pulled not one code on my OBD2 scanner in eight tries. All had peeling paint, all started right up, idled fine, shifted fine. Any of the eight will do as we go into bidding on them next week.

Another time I picked a car up to drive home and it was shifting weird, erratically. So I shipped it home after dropping it at a shop and having a transmission flush done on that end. Turns out I didn't need to, after driving it about 50 miles on the new fluid, the erratic shifting disappeared. If I'd have gutted it out and drove home, I'd have been fine.

Sometimes I purchase transit permit plates for my drives, sometimes I just wing it with no plates knowing that in my state if you have the title with you and a bill of sale dated the same day or day before, no officer is going to give you grief as you drive the vehicle home. (I confirmed this with two different Highway Patrol buddies.) I do always add them to my insurance the second I pick them up, liability only.

As far as driving back with problems, I really haven't had any. I had a Charger with a bad front end, drove 150 miles home anyway, straight into the shop, but they told me it had a bad front end in the auction. Spent $750 in repairs on top of the $1800 purchase price, sold it in a week for $4400.

Call it good luck or call it pre-selecting good low-mileage cars that won't break, but either way fetching vehicles and driving them hasn't been a problem for me. I'm going to continue to do it and I don't understand why others are so skittish of it. As for the possibility of break-downs, that's what Triple AAA is for. $85 per year will get you a tow to any shop within $150 miles. I used it once on the tranny flush job and once to literally tow a car home for free from 90 miles away. I don't abuse it though because they'll can you if you use about 5 tows a year.

Maybe that's because of where I live. The whole west is pretty rust free and used cars hold up well out here. I can get to LA, Phoenix, Tuscon, Denver and Vegas for about $50 one way on short notice. A whole slew of other cities for $100-$150. If it's a two day drive, it's $40 in a Motel 6 and one day can be a weekend. I've taken trains, trolleys, Greyhound, shuttles, Ubers, taxis, and even ferry boats to get cars. I look forward to fetching them, it gives me a nice little road trip.

I tell people that this hobby is my substitute for the deer hunt. I get to stalk my prey (the research), shoot my prey in competition with other hunters (the auction), track it through the brush (the fetch), gut it and skin it (the fix), and then I sell my horns for twice the cost of the hunt, enabling me to do it all over again!

Great hobby, much better than golf.
Posted by: AlleyG

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/20/21 04:15 PM

Where is the best place to sell a used P71? I've never sold on E-bay, so not sure that's an option. Trying to avoid Craigslist too.

Ours may be coming up for sale soon as the wife has really wanted an SUV for a while. Then we'll be like everyone else, and she won't ever get comments about her car again, lol!

What we have is an '04, bought with only 10k miles, now has 95k. It is white, 3.27TL, traction control, Nenno console, 35% ceramic tint, Kenwood stereo, full replica hubcaps with Ford logos, spare tire, jack, etc. Spotlight removed, but still have it.

Always used Ford parts on it, like all new hoses, etc.

Hope I can get a good price for it, otherwise I'm keeping it. The cars are just too good to just let go.

Al
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/20/21 10:08 PM

Based on what you're telling me, that would be about a 4K car in my market, if the paint is good.

The forum you sell it in is totally dependent on your local marketplace. In some communities Facebook Marketplace is best, in some Craigslist. In my marketplace, CL is garbage, everyone sells on the want ads of one TV news station.

Find out what works in your area and go with it.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/20/21 10:11 PM

Speaking of P71 prices... the lovely blue 2009 SAP with 105K miles and only 240 hours sold at auction in Seattle for $4650. In the final moments no bidders stepped up to push it higher.

So what would be retail on that one? I'm guessing $5500 or 6.
Posted by: AlleyG

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/21/21 07:14 AM

Thanks, what I've had the best luck with is parking a car on the street with a sign in it. But you're usually stuck with your own street these days.

CL is sketchy AF. I had this military guy call me long distance about my old T-Bird, and we sort of talked about a price. Then he calls me back and basically tries to strong-arm me over the phone with a rock bottom price "come on man, I'll give you $1200". lol!

Al
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/21/21 11:15 AM

I prefer in person auctions as long as you're not traveling overly far with the risk of coming back empty handed. For police cars they report anything that was disclosed to them and if they don't it's usually a place you don't want to deal with anyway. The better places will also add anything they noticed on their own to the list. Seeing the cars in person is a huge plus but it depends on what you're after. I'm more picky if it's a car I'm going to keep vs one I don't care about. I've seen quite a few that look good online then turn out to be duds in person or if there is a large lot of identical ones you can work out the bad from good. A dealer plate is always the easiest way to drive a car back but some states will also issue you a temporary tag if you want to keep it legal. Some places once a car has gone thru auction they expect you to have it inspected before they will issue you any sort of tag for it.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/21/21 12:39 PM

Originally Posted By AlleyG
Thanks, what I've had the best luck with is parking a car on the street with a sign in it. But you're usually stuck with your own street these days.

CL is sketchy AF. I had this military guy call me long distance about my old T-Bird, and we sort of talked about a price. Then he calls me back and basically tries to strong-arm me over the phone with a rock bottom price "come on man, I'll give you $1200". lol!

Al


That's part and parcel of instantly reaching a wider marketplace over the internet. You will have deal with con men and other sketchy individuals if you want to reach more people. And no forum is immune from smart buyers who will try to win the negotiation against the desperate seller.

It's simply the price one has to pay in 2021 when newspaper want ads and the Thrifty Nickel in 7-11's have gone the way of the Stegosaurus. You'll deal with scammers and smart buyers regardless of which Net forum you choose. Sadly an internet marketplace is your only choice if you want to reach more than the 14 people who drive up your street.

But it's nothing any reasonably savvy person in the 21st century can't handle. Here are some of the scams/bothers I routinely deal with every time I list one of my Vics for sale.

1) "Certified" Cashiers check scammers from out of state - An old con involving sending you more money than you're asking in a bogus check. What I do to save time is reverse directory search every number that texts me. If they are out of state I send them a quick message asking why they want the car. These scammers are trolling hundreds of want ads simultaneously, they never read your ad or respond with personalized chat. One back and forth and you're done.

2) The UVR Scam - It involves a person posing as a ready buyer who wants to buy right away, but says he needs the assurance of a UVR report (supposedly like Carfax) if you'd only go to the website and pay $29 to get it. The website is bogus, the con only involves taking your $29. Never do it, drop the person who asks.

3) The fake Consignment lot Scam - Folks who call and ask to sell your car for you for a flat fee. They'll sell it alright... good luck getting your money out of them afterwards and the next month the "lot" will be gone.

4) The "Codes" scam - This is new, I don't really know how it works, but they start right off asking if you've received their text code or can they send you a code. Just ignore them.

5) The "Bring it to Me" Scam - This is more a negotiating tactic than a scam, they don't want to be put out so that you're in a position of weakness and they can low-ball you. It never pays off, is never worth it. I agreed to do this twice, years ago. The first time I got to the rendezvous area, saw it was ghetto, and just kept driving. Second time I met a guy at a gas station near his working and he started picking the car apart in minute detail "belt is worn, filter isn't new" etc. (No sh**, it's a used car.) He was gearing up to low-ball me. I didn't even let him test drive it, I just got in and drove away, sold it to the next guy.

6) The Joyriding Young Male Scam - They just want to see what a cop car feels like. I don't let them come unless they bring their parents. Time wasters.

After you gird yourself to deal with scammers, what you'll get out of the car determines on how you price and market it. I'm amazed at what a poor job most want ad sellers do in selling their cars. Lousy pictures, sparse descriptions, don't bother to gussy the cars up before selling, don't look at the competition and price their car accordingly. It's like they don't want to sell their stuff.

If three other guys are selling newer, lower mileage Vics for $3,800, you ain't gonna git $4,200 for yours, no matter how much you love her. It's just simple math. If you want to sell a car quick, it must be slightly better than, and slightly cheaper than the closest competition. Otherwise, it'll just sit amidst the sound of crickets.

Here's the last factor that makes no difference in what price you can expect to fetch -- how much money you spent on the car. Our cars are basically cheap beaters with 100K on them and up. We love them and they're great, but they're not collectibles.

Lastly, don't forget the category of GREEEEAAAATTT buyer that the internet is dropping in your lap! I'm talking about Millenials. They are stupid negotiators, they watch Youtube reviews, they have no personal experience, and are used to paying whatever anyone asks them to pay.

The last four Vics I've sold have been to millenials, all at asking price. It's as hard as bopping baby bunnies on the head and throwing them in the stew pot. Trust me, you don't want to miss out on Millenial bunny bopping when selling a car and our Vics are prime bunny bopping fodder because Youtube loves them.
Posted by: TheCableGuy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/21/21 03:00 PM

Originally Posted By AlleyG
Where is the best place to sell a used P71? I've never sold on E-bay, so not sure that's an option. Trying to avoid Craigslist too.


I used OfferUp(it’s an app if you didn’t know).

I sold my Dodge to a guy 70 miles away on it. He came to me to look at it. Bought it on the spot(I wasn’t asking much).

I bought my P7B on OfferUp also.

Yeah you get a few low ballers but you can block them if they keep bugging you.

Facebook marketplace for your area. I no longer have a Facebook, but when I did, there was more cons on selling on it. People could message your direct profile. That gets annoying.

Stay away from CL, as least where I live.. it’s nothing but all shady. Everything.

My 2 cents.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/21/21 11:06 PM

Just logged in to offerup to check it out.

Very disappointed to find that it's full of fake car ads, such as this one:

2008 Acura TL $800

How do I know it's fake? Because it seems that there are dozens of 2008 Acura TL's listed in Salt Lake for $800 and many of the sellers also list their $800 TL's for sale in other cities. Mikayla is selling this same underpriced acura in Waco TX and Coronado CA and many other cities.

Hell, if it were real all she'd have to do is go to her next door neighbor and say "You want my Acura for $800?" It would be gone that day.

All they are doing is trolling for your email so they can spam you or hook you with some other bogus deal.
Posted by: jasonp1102

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/22/21 02:28 AM

Check these out. I posted a thread in B&I about repainting my 07 that has the same roof rot that plagues your 04 Sport and you answered it, Dmblanch.

I have been perusing diff auctions for P71s south of me. My parents and younger brother live outside of Orlando, so anything in FL would be easiest for me - fly down, visit the family, check out a couple cars, pull the trigger on one, get it to my parents and make sure it's fit for a 1100 mile home, drive. Can put it in my dad's name, on his FL insurance, and worry about retitling it into my name in NJ later.

Next best thing would be going to NC/SC/TN/possibly northern AL for a car, and arranging a temp/transport tag with the corresponding state MVC so the car is not titled to the PD anymore for the drive back to NJ.

I just find it incredibly stupid to buy a car from up here when it will be plagued by rust and rot, when southern cars are STUPID clean underneath.

So, I don't have the money for one right now, I'm hoping within the next year or so I'll be able to get one. But seeing these prices makes me worried.

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=90&acctid=2028 - 2006 SAP-lite in silver/tan with 127k - $4250+fee, in NC.

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=182&acctid=6280 - 2011 SAP in I guess silver with 117k but it looks like there was some kind of fire damage around the gas cap door - sitting at $2050, in FL, with 5 days to go as of posting.

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=2&acctid=20149 - 2008 ex-patrol white with 106k, no rear door panels - sitting at $1900, in TN, with about 12hrs to go as of posting.

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=1813&acctid=8028 - 2008 ex-patrol/sheriff in white with only 51k - sitting at $4200, in CA, but ONLY to dealers/salvors (I wonder what's up with that with the Fontana lot having some auctions locked and others not.)

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=1759&acctid=8028 - 2007 silver SAP with 103k - sitting at $2250, same Fontana CA lot as above but open to public.

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=1814&acctid=8028 - 2008 white prolly ex-patrol with only 60k - sitting at $2625, Fontana CA lot but locked to dealers/salvors

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=34&acctid=4630 - 2011 LX, musta been an unmarked unit, 117k - $3500+fee, in TN

Those are just the ones I perused. I'm afraid that the prices are going to keep going up as supply continues to shrink and ol Cleetus keeps picking up 20-30 at a time for his janky races. Some of these prices are bordering on double what they would have closed at auction for a year and a half ago, as well.

I may be SOL for picking up another good daily Panther when I have the money. frown.Because let's be honest, these cars aren't going to be worth $5k+ when they're the last of what the departments had and they'll be 10-15 years old. I could go buy a Taurusceptor for that kind of money, at that point.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/22/21 12:46 PM

Yeah, all those SAP's are going north of $4K, never fear. No need to even follow them if you're looking for bargains.

The Fontana lot is an actual GOVDEALS facility and it handles all the cars sluffed off from Orange County. As such they are sticklers for rules. They won't sell B&W cars to the public as it is illegal to drive them in CA. They also won't sell ANY police vehicle that has had its rear doors disabled to the public, which means MOST of the police vehicles that Orange County gives them. I cry as I watch dozens of sweet low mileage Vics come and go from Fontana that I can't bid on. The only ones freed up to the public are cars never disabled for police use, such as the fifth one you cited. That SAP is still underpriced at $2400 with four days to go.

Never fear, though. It will shoot up to 4K as it closes. Those Socal cars always do, they never go cheap. After many months looking at them, I stopped. No deals to be had there. What I don't understand is how a dealer can pay $4200 for a normal white P71 (even with low miles) and flip it for a profit.

Lastly, I did compare my roof rot to yours, but concluded they were not the same. Yours showed evidence of overall exterior corrosion due to salt air that particularly affected spots on the roof and rear quarter-panels in areas where the peelformance white is known to peel off and where your car was repainted. It appears that those peeling spots were repainted incorrectly or incompletely, then rusted through. You can see the boundaries between the old and new paint and how the rot is confined only to those repainted areas.

Mine has no such rust and hasn't been repainted. Furthermore, the "pimples" aren't really even rust. The aren't red, they're black and they bubble up from below and only break through when they become quite large. And they don't attack known peelformance weak spots. Only the roof, and evenly across the whole roof, not just the front where peelformance typically peels.

Here's another low mileage, but very pedestrian white p71 that may hit $5K at auction.

New Mexico P71 38,000 miles
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/22/21 03:24 PM

I bet that NM P71 will easily fetch $5k.
I'm currently watching this SC state auction of a couple decent SAP vics and about 20 chargers. I'm wondering if I'm seeing shill bidding. The same two users, c****s and e****1 have bidded multiple lots up to $5k even, with a day till closing. Looks fishy to me.
Let me know what y'all think.
State of South Carolina
Something else I've noticed is that the 2015+ charger headlights must cost a pretty penny!
Posted by: VoodooChild

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/22/21 04:16 PM

How do you guys pick cars up from Govdeals? Is there a way to legally drive them back without a dealer plate?

All the auctions (up here at least) say it must be towed off the lot.

I know I could rent a uhaul and trailer for like $70, plus 99 cents a mile.

What about shipping? Any cheap ways to get that done? Any tips would be greatly appreciated. I'd love to start flipping or get a parts/project car.
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/22/21 04:34 PM

Originally Posted By VoodooChild
How do you guys pick cars up from Govdeals? Is there a way to legally drive them back without a dealer plate?

All the auctions (up here at least) say it must be towed off the lot.

I know I could rent a uhaul and trailer for like $70, plus 99 cents a mile.

What about shipping? Any cheap ways to get that done? Any tips would be greatly appreciated. I'd love to start flipping or get a parts/project car.


In the southeast I just pay and drive them off the lot and home with no plate. Never had any agency worried about the legality of that. Some aren't even concerned about leaving the title open.
I think most cops will cut you a break if you have the title and proof of purchase within the last day or two. Maybe not if the title is open though haha.
If they insist you tow if off the lot, maybe bring a pickup truck and a tow strap. wink
Posted by: GM_Guy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/22/21 05:39 PM

Originally Posted By jasonp1102

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=90&acctid=2028 - 2006 SAP-lite in silver/tan with 127k - $4250+fee, in NC.


https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=34&acctid=4630 - 2011 LX, musta been an unmarked unit, 117k - $3500+fee, in TN


The LX could have been a city car. The first 2006 went to council vote April 5 to get disposed of, it was a Department of Social Services car.
Posted by: bluejay_32

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/22/21 06:31 PM

Originally Posted By Tenevic_P71
Originally Posted By VoodooChild
How do you guys pick cars up from Govdeals? Is there a way to legally drive them back without a dealer plate?

All the auctions (up here at least) say it must be towed off the lot.

I know I could rent a uhaul and trailer for like $70, plus 99 cents a mile.

What about shipping? Any cheap ways to get that done? Any tips would be greatly appreciated. I'd love to start flipping or get a parts/project car.


In the southeast I just pay and drive them off the lot and home with no plate. Never had any agency worried about the legality of that. Some aren't even concerned about leaving the title open.
I think most cops will cut you a break if you have the title and proof of purchase within the last day or two. Maybe not if the title is open though haha.
If they insist you tow if off the lot, maybe bring a pickup truck and a tow strap. wink

Yeah, I don't see that happening here in New York.
Posted by: jasonp1102

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/23/21 12:39 AM

Originally Posted By VoodooChild
How do you guys pick cars up from Govdeals? Is there a way to legally drive them back without a dealer plate?

All the auctions (up here at least) say it must be towed off the lot.

I know I could rent a uhaul and trailer for like $70, plus 99 cents a mile.

What about shipping? Any cheap ways to get that done? Any tips would be greatly appreciated. I'd love to start flipping or get a parts/project car.


I may not be much help as to date, both my P71s came from departments within 15 minutes of me, pre-COVID. So I simply picked up the title, went to my local MVC, title transfer/registration, went back to the lots with my new plates and drove away.

They don't want the liability of you trying to get the car off their lot if it's not drivable/road worthy (ie it has no brakes, etc.) So a lot of ads will just state "tow only" although if you talk to the people at the dept, they may be singing a different tune.
Posted by: jasonp1102

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/23/21 12:41 AM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Yeah, all those SAP's are going north of $4K, never fear. No need to even follow them if you're looking for bargains.

The Fontana lot is an actual GOVDEALS facility and it handles all the cars sluffed off from Orange County. As such they are sticklers for rules. They won't sell B&W cars to the public as it is illegal to drive them in CA. They also won't sell ANY police vehicle that has had its rear doors disabled to the public, which means MOST of the police vehicles that Orange County gives them. I cry as I watch dozens of sweet low mileage Vics come and go from Fontana that I can't bid on. The only ones freed up to the public are cars never disabled for police use, such as the fifth one you cited. That SAP is still underpriced at $2400 with four days to go.

Never fear, though. It will shoot up to 4K as it closes. Those Socal cars always do, they never go cheap. After many months looking at them, I stopped. No deals to be had there. What I don't understand is how a dealer can pay $4200 for a normal white P71 (even with low miles) and flip it for a profit.

Lastly, I did compare my roof rot to yours, but concluded they were not the same. Yours showed evidence of overall exterior corrosion due to salt air that particularly affected spots on the roof and rear quarter-panels in areas where the peelformance white is known to peel off and where your car was repainted. It appears that those peeling spots were repainted incorrectly or incompletely, then rusted through. You can see the boundaries between the old and new paint and how the rot is confined only to those repainted areas.

Mine has no such rust and hasn't been repainted. Furthermore, the "pimples" aren't really even rust. The aren't red, they're black and they bubble up from below and only break through when they become quite large. And they don't attack known peelformance weak spots. Only the roof, and evenly across the whole roof, not just the front where peelformance typically peels.

Here's another low mileage, but very pedestrian white p71 that may hit $5K at auction.

New Mexico P71 38,000 miles


Unfortunately, at this point I'm aiming for an SAP or an SAP-lite patrol/other dept that wasn't abused.

You are correct in that my roof rot (and the other pillar rotting) stems from the incorrect repaints that the dept I bought the 07 from did. At this point, it may be in my pocket's best interest to just repaint the damn thing and ride it to 300k. LOL.
Posted by: RipWixomAssembly

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/23/21 07:36 PM

Yeah, Highway Patrol cars I believe are pretty decent. I like some of the Ex-CT State Police cars. Between they order them all with Carpet. Besides K-9 Units. Some of them, like a fair amount of auction cars need some work. Such as having the holes in the roof plugged. If I remember right, I think CT puts fluid film on some of their cars so the rust typically isn't overly bad. Most I see is fender lip rust. Best of luck in your search.
Posted by: RipWixomAssembly

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/23/21 07:40 PM

Have any photos showing the condition of your paint? Cuz I went to your thread about the paint, And none of em were loading.
Posted by: jasonp1102

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/24/21 12:21 AM

Originally Posted By RipWixomAssembly
Have any photos showing the condition of your paint? Cuz I went to your thread about the paint, And none of em were loading.


My thread, or DMBlanch's?

Mine is an 07 in white: https://imgur.com/a/iR4cT29
The roached out quarter panel/dog leg is the icing on the cake, but my main concern is the rust pimpling all over the roof and C-pillars (and slowly creeping up on the fenders and top of the rear quarters, those pics were taken about 3 months ago.)
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/25/21 05:03 PM

Originally Posted By Tenevic_P71
I bet that NM P71 will easily fetch $5k.
I'm currently watching this SC state auction of a couple decent SAP vics and about 20 chargers. I'm wondering if I'm seeing shill bidding. The same two users, c****s and e****1 have bidded multiple lots up to $5k even, with a day till closing. Looks fishy to me.
Let me know what y'all think.
State of South Carolina
Something else I've noticed is that the 2015+ charger headlights must cost a pretty penny!


I have previously watched a number of those south carolina auctions since my son lives near there. Never bought one since they tend to be higher mileage.

I just went and looked again, because they always have many posted and I don't see any signs of shilling in the dozen or so I looked at. Sorted by "closing soonest" all the cars I looked at were still low priced, under $2k. So there really couldn't be much, if any, shilling going on there.... yet.

Who's to say what will happen in the waning hours as they close. That's when you've got to watch. Non-winning bids that come in that are designed to push the price up, but not take it.

That said, nothing about those SC cars screams "gotta have" it to me. The SAP vics are the best of the bunch, because all the cars seem to have over 150K miles and on a Vic that's not so worrisome, but on a 5.7 hemi charger that's a ticking (literally) time bomb.

I only wish they hadn't ruined those SAP's by cutting holes in the front fascia's for push bars.
Posted by: RipWixomAssembly

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/25/21 05:30 PM

Yours. Wow, that looks pretty roached.
Posted by: jasonp1102

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/25/21 11:50 PM

Originally Posted By RipWixomAssembly
Yours. Wow, that looks pretty roached.


Yeah. It's pretty bad. Car's about to hit 169k, bout 52k on the reman trans. The rear whines but hasn't gotten any worse in ~15k miles.

With the way supply is going down and auction prices keep going up, and my money situation being what it is, it may end up being cheaper to just cut the dogleg out and get new sheet metal welded in, strip damn near the whole car except for the doors, hood, trunk lid - and repaint it.

Ideally I'd like to be driving a Panther in 2030. May not happen at this point though.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/27/21 11:48 AM

So in the past two months I've bought two white 2010 SAP-lite Crown Vics from the same city fleet at auction. Both were excellent cars, requiring very little touch-up work, with about 105k miles. I bought the first one for $2400, cursing under my breath for having to pay more at auction than I normally like to, but such is the state of affairs with these rising prices for Vics these days. I bought it anyway.

Then I sold it for $4000 in less than 30 days. Profit was less than normal, but still good.

Before it was sold, I bought its twin sister, an identical 2010 SAP-lite (meaning no velour seats) for $2100. This time I got a lower price because the auction closed at like 7:30 in the morning and no one got up for it. It too is almost ready to be sold and this time I'll aim for $4100 or $4200, but it's really the same car as before.

Wouldn't you know it, a third one is up for auction now, the same seller, same year, same everything but with fewer miles. Of course I'd love to buy it too, right? Rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat.

Except I can't, because this auction bid has already sailed past $4,500 with two days left on the clicker. Could hit $5K. On cars that I paid $2100 for less than a month ago.
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/27/21 02:24 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
I have previously watched a number of those south carolina auctions since my son lives near there. Never bought one since they tend to be higher mileage.

I just went and looked again, because they always have many posted and I don't see any signs of shilling in the dozen or so I looked at. Sorted by "closing soonest" all the cars I looked at were still low priced, under $2k. So there really couldn't be much, if any, shilling going on there.... yet.

Who's to say what will happen in the waning hours as they close. That's when you've got to watch. Non-winning bids that come in that are designed to push the price up, but not take it.

That said, nothing about those SC cars screams "gotta have" it to me. The SAP vics are the best of the bunch, because all the cars seem to have over 150K miles and on a Vic that's not so worrisome, but on a 5.7 hemi charger that's a ticking (literally) time bomb.

I only wish they hadn't ruined those SAP's by cutting holes in the front fascia's for push bars.

The fishy auctions closed before you saw my post. A bunch of v6 chagers. Definitely looked shilly to me, exactly as you described. The current auctions look normal though. I notice the nicer 2011 155k mile SAP in the lot is already at $2k with a day to go.
And yeah those cars are sort of beat. Not sure how well SC takes care of them.
Glad to hear theres still money to be made on vics. As long as you catch the right auction.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/28/21 03:40 PM

The two 2010 P71 SAP-lite cars that I was watching from the city of Ogden just closed at auction. You'll remember I was following them because I have bought two other sisters to these vehicles from the same seller in the last two months for $2100 and $2400 respectively. Mine had 104k and 106k miles.

These two latest ordinary white patrol vics sold for $5050 (with 70k miles) and $3005 (with 99K miles), but otherwise identical to mine. WTF?

I sold my first one (the $2400 one) for $4000. With these raising prices I think I'll try for $4500 on the second one.
Posted by: AlleyG

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/29/21 10:54 AM

Maybe we'll just hold on to our '04 CVPI then. Mostly cause I love the car, but partly because I have no interest in looking for an SUV. It might be worth the same or more in five years.

On a side note, our car currently has 95k. I was thinking that "under a 100k" could make a difference in price VS one that had ex: 105k, no?

Al
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/29/21 06:55 PM

i’m sure it does make a difference but does 10,000 miles equal $1000 on a car thats only worth three or four? Does 30,000 miles equal $3000 on the same car?
Posted by: Ponyguy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/29/21 11:24 PM

Originally Posted By AlleyG
On a side note, our car currently has 95k. I was thinking that "under a 100k" could make a difference in price VS one that had ex: 105k, no?

Al

ALL other things being equal... and I mean REALLY equal, a "Less than 100k mile car" will be valued at more than a car with over 100k. There is a psychological line at 100k miles over which instantly decreases a car's perceived value...
and as I learned about 15 months ago, there is another "line of demarcation" at 10k miles on a "nearly new" vehicle. (Can't say "car" any more, because most vehicles are SUVs, crossovers, or trucks). My "nearly new" Ford Fusion had 9300 miles on it and consequently carried a higher "value" with the financial people.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/30/21 01:16 PM

I don’t think that anyone is arguing that there is not a psychological price point at the hundred thousand mile mark. Of course there is. The question is merely how much of the $1000 price difference should attributed to the 5k mileage gap between 99k miles and 104k miles, and how much can be attributed to the rapidly inflating prices on these cars.

And when I say identical I mean identical. Same year same color same configuration same owner same maintenance schedule same tires same spec levels same condition.
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/30/21 06:38 PM

Were those vics on PublicSurplus?
I think it basically comes down to luck of the draw, depending on who happens to find the auction and feel like bidding on it. Not sure if the stark difference in price you're seeing is directly indicative of market trends.
I notice the same thing for other makes of cars in online auctions. All it takes is 2 people to get in a bidding war and push the price up.
Posted by: VoodooChild

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 04/30/21 06:38 PM

Yep, there's definitely a psychological factor in it. I bought my 2001 LX at 92K, and my 2011 P7b at 89k.

BUT I also figure that most of the commonly owner-ignored maintenance procedures on a car also kick in around that mileage. Assuming the dealer warrantied to 75 or 90k, and hopefully took care of those maintenance procedures for the owner when it came in to the stealership for oil changes.

Changing out the trans fluid and filter is my biggest concern, as many mechanically uninclined people even think about it regardless of the mileage. Same thing with coolant, gear oil, ect. [censored], some people don't even know you have to change the engine oil (Unbelivable I know but I've met more than one).
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/02/21 01:58 PM

Originally Posted By Tenevic_P71
Were those vics on PublicSurplus?
I think it basically comes down to luck of the draw, depending on who happens to find the auction and feel like bidding on it. Not sure if the stark difference in price you're seeing is directly indicative of market trends.
I notice the same thing for other makes of cars in online auctions. All it takes is 2 people to get in a bidding war and push the price up.


They were on Govdeals... as were both of the two sisters that I bought the month before.

Regular fluid changes is something you generally don't have to worry about with fleet maintained vehicles, especially those that come off the line due to scheduled rotation. I remember one of the cars I got from rotation, a 2011, came with a new set of tires. They'd been mounted only the month before and no one thought to swap 'em out before auctioning the vehicle off.
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/02/21 06:31 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
They were on Govdeals... as were both of the two sisters that I bought the month before.

Regular fluid changes is something you generally don't have to worry about with fleet maintained vehicles, especially those that come off the line due to scheduled rotation. I remember one of the cars I got from rotation, a 2011, came with a new set of tires. They'd been mounted only the month before and no one thought to swap 'em out before auctioning the vehicle off.

You never know with Govdeals.
The last vic I bought had 95k miles. Before I sold it I gave it a "100k mile service" per the owners manual. PS fluid, spark plugs, air/fuel filter, axle oil. It seemed like most of it had already been done by the PD, ahead of schedule. I've also got them with brand new brakes and tires.
I agree with you when you said a big part of playing this surplus game, is knowing which agencies take good care of their vehicles. Those cars are the bread and butter.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/02/21 11:31 PM

I'd even argue that certain states are better than others for generally good vehicles vs. bad.

I've never seen a good Vic come out of New Mexico. Albuquerque is the worst. Colorado cars tend to be past their prime too.

Good cars out of Oregon and Washington. Utah is good too. Idaho is pretty good. Nevada tends to be rode hard and put away wet, like the cars see a lot of action. Wyoming is hail storm riddled, rusted out, ice storm crap. California can be pretty good and shot out, its hit or miss. Arizona cars can be good, but since they don't rust, tend to get driven longer than most before auctioning.
Posted by: Prospect62

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/03/21 11:26 AM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
I'd even argue that certain states are better than others for generally good vehicles vs. bad.

I've never seen a good Vic come out of New Mexico. Albuquerque is the worst. Colorado cars tend to be past their prime too.

Good cars out of Oregon and Washington. Utah is good too. Idaho is pretty good. Nevada tends to be rode hard and put away wet, like the cars see a lot of action. Wyoming is hail storm riddled, rusted out, ice storm crap. California can be pretty good and shot out, its hit or miss. Arizona cars can be good, but since they don't rust, tend to get driven longer than most before auctioning.


I take it you don't do much with north east cars? All the states you mentioned - cars from there would fetch a premium here because even the newest Panther in NY looks like absolute trash by now.

My Nevada HP car is in incredible shape. Like literally blows me away every time I work on it. I heard NHP is very meticulous on maintenance, but I've never been able to dig into that and find out why or for sure.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/03/21 01:46 PM

On no, I'd never touch any northeast car in a billion years.

I generally won't buy anything east of the Front Range of Colorado because of hail damage.

All you east coast guys should be buying western cars and shipping them east, although something from the non-Hurricane zone of the South wouldn't be too bad.
Posted by: jasonp1102

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/03/21 09:39 PM

https://tmauction.proxibid.com/Vehicles-...mation/61178430

This one is VERY intriguing. 2007 LX Sport used by a Sherrifs Dept in north FL. 115k, sitting at $2600 with 4 days (as of my posting this) to go. It's coming from an auction house that seems to handle quite a bit of FL surplus.

I'm gonna say that ends up at $5k. I think by 07, LX Sports were relatively rare, correct? I wanna say at that point the package wasn't even the "LX Sport" package anymore and in 08 or 09 they stopped offering the package outright?
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/04/21 12:41 AM

That one looks pretty good. Big paint flaw in the center of the hood, of course and the driver's seat looks like it has multiple rips. But the color is really good, the mileage is low and it's a Sport.

Don't bid early.
Posted by: VoodooChild

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/04/21 10:53 AM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch

All you east coast guys should be buying western cars and shipping them east, although something from the non-Hurricane zone of the South wouldn't be too bad.


Any thoughts on the cheapest way to ship a car? I've been contemplating doing just that next but I'm afraid I'll pay as much for shipping as I do for the car.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/04/21 11:14 AM

You'll pay about a grand, give or take, depending on the broker or how lucky you get. It's a scammy industry, with a lot of bait and switch. It helps to be along major interstates and to be flexible with your time.

Or you could take a nice road trip in a great cruising car and pick it up yourself.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/04/21 12:34 PM

What's the top end of the market for a plain Vanilla white P71 patrol car with no cruise control? This Fontana GovDeals auction might just find it.

2009 P71 29k miles, 97 idle hours

Open only to dealers and salvors because of Orange County's rules that any car with disabled rear doors cannot be sold to the public, the auction price is already at $5000 and it still has a week to go.

Granted, it's the lowest mileage/hours patrol car I've ever seen, but other than that this is a dime-a-dozen P71.
Posted by: Prospect62

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/04/21 05:29 PM

Originally Posted By VoodooChild
Any thoughts on the cheapest way to ship a car? I've been contemplating doing just that next but I'm afraid I'll pay as much for shipping as I do for the car.


I've used Montway Auto Transport twice, once to ship me a P71 from Connecticut and once to ship my current P71 from Mesa, Arizona to me here in Central New York State.

The cross country job cost me $1300 and the car was here in about four days. The Connecticut car was like $450 and also took a few days.

I should note that Montway is more of a broker than a company that has it's own trucks and actually hauls cars (which is what I thought they were at first). What really happens is they take your shipping request and post it on a board and independent shippers bid on and take what they want. Montway says they do operate their own trucks but I have yet to talk to anyone who has seen it. Montway was by far the most affordable choice I could find, although I was a little disappointed when the price for my job went up by $50 a few days after I received my initial preliminary quote. Luckily, after speaking with the very polite representative, they agreed to honor my original quote, even though they didn’t have to. My advice to you is book your shipment on the day you get your quote to lock in that price, because apparently "routes" can change and prices for the same transport can fluctuate day-to-day.

That being said, they ended up jacking my price up anyway because I wasn't going to be around the day the shipper wanted to deliver the car, so they asked for another $50 to deliver it the next day. I agreed in the interest of expediency. Overall, the process was easy and went smoothly, and I couldn't have asked for much more. Their system works, it allows you to track your car and you have multiple payment options. I would recommend Montway to anyone based on my own personal experiences with them. The guy who brought my car from Arizona was super cool, had a huge semi-truck type car carrier and was totally professional.

Just my experience. For me, spending almost as much for the shipping as I did for the car was WELL worth it. Anyone on the east coast, as was said above, should be doing it the way I did it. This car is worth double what I paid for it here in NY just because of how rust free it is. When I go to sell this car (if I ever do), I will make back what I spent on shipping because the car is nicer than any Panther within 100 miles of me.
Posted by: jasonp1102

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/04/21 11:35 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
That one looks pretty good. Big paint flaw in the center of the hood, of course and the driver's seat looks like it has multiple rips. But the color is really good, the mileage is low and it's a Sport.

Don't bid early.


I posted it here more for anyone that was intrigued and wanted to potentially snag it, to go for it. I don't have the money for what that car will end up closing at.

There are, however, a couple plain white ex-patrols that are sitting VERY cheap, with a little over a week to go. I'm keeping my eye on them.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/06/21 12:56 PM

In my experience, Montway has been one of the worst for bait and switch pricing. They are, as you said, brokers not shippers. They give you a "quote", sign you up, then put out a shipping request out on the internet board and see who they can get to take it.

With one of my cars they quoted me $950, but after a week of looking they were floating my request on the boards for $1450 without updating me... with no takers. If they'd gotten a taker, they would have only advised me of the change in price after the car with in transit. So a buddy who was a shipper told me I had to literally tell Montway I was no longer going to ship the car and pull the contract because no other broker could touch it as long as they were holding the quote.

I did this and then my buddy instructed me on how I could use my free 150 mile radius Triple AAA tow to move the vehicle to a service shop along a major freeway, have a small bit of service done, and then the shop was obligated to hold the car until shipping pick-up. From that major freeway location the quote that my buddy shopped on the net was only $650 and we instantly had a taker.

On another note, I just sold car #10 for $4200 in less than 48 hours to the first person who looked at it. An early 20-something young man who had done a ton of internet research and who brought his dad. They couldn't find anything wrong with it, so they instantly bought it.

It's the Youtube stuff that is selling these cars for me. If you take care of the paint issues and the car has low mileage, it's a no brainer.
Posted by: Prospect62

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/06/21 03:12 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
In my experience, Montway has been one of the worst for bait and switch pricing.


There's multiple ways to skin this cat, that's for sure. I've had good luck with Montway.

The AAA thing always seemed kind of shady to me. I've been tempted to try it but my conscience always gets the best of me.

Honestly, after having done this a couple times, I'd probably skip the brokers altogether next time and try to look locally for a shipper who would take a job from me direct. As far as finding the lowest price for a job though I think Montway is the way to go, just gotta pay attention to your shipment order that's all.
Posted by: Armada Master

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/09/21 01:19 AM

They've gone stupid prices around me as well. I just read an article from Steven Lang talking about last year's new cars & certified used cars are bringing more than 2021s sitting on the lot. Rental car agencies flooding auctions like CARMAX to BUY cars for their rental fleets.

Last deal I got on a CVPI was a 2003 with 105k miles from local online auction last summer. I do better on the mom & pop local online auction sites than I do the big ones like Govdeals.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/09/21 11:58 AM

The vanilla white P71 auction from Fontana that I mentioned above ran out of steam at $5650. So I guess there is a limit to what people will overpay for these cars. That auction was only open to dealers and salvors, so I hate to think what retail price they'll mark this one up to after paying over $6K with fees included.

The silver 2009 Sport with the paint damage on the hood and seat rips from Alachua County Florida did indeed go high. It sold for $5100 with only a 3% auction fee mark-up. This makes me optimistic about what I can get for my sport once I fix the roof rot issue.
Posted by: Armada Master

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/10/21 08:37 AM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
The vanilla white P71 auction from Fontana that I mentioned above ran out of steam at $5650. So I guess there is a limit to what people will overpay for these cars. That auction was only open to dealers and salvors, so I hate to think what retail price they'll mark this one up to after paying over $6K with fees included.

The silver 2009 Sport with the paint damage on the hood and seat rips from Alachua County Florida did indeed go high. It sold for $5100 with only a 3% auction fee mark-up. This makes me optimistic about what I can get for my sport once I fix the roof rot issue.


Ugh, we've got a 2004 CVPI with 106k miles coming up for auction out of my department in a few weeks, hoping these prices settle somewhat by then because I'd like to bid on it, but not paying retail or above on it.
Posted by: AlleyG

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/10/21 10:22 AM

[/quote]

Ugh, we've got a 2004 CVPI with 106k miles coming up for auction out of my department in a few weeks, hoping these prices settle somewhat by then because I'd like to bid on it, but not paying retail or above on it.
[/quote]

That's the last year they had a "real" throttle controller with a cable. At least you got that going for you. That's one of the best attributes - crisp throttle response.

I wonder what a P71 will be worth 5 years from now? I'm thinking more, not less.

Al
Posted by: Armada Master

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/10/21 10:41 AM

Originally Posted By AlleyG
[/quote]

Ugh, we've got a 2004 CVPI with 106k miles coming up for auction out of my department in a few weeks, hoping these prices settle somewhat by then because I'd like to bid on it, but not paying retail or above on it.


That's the last year they had a "real" throttle controller with a cable. At least you got that going for you. That's one of the best attributes - crisp throttle response.

I wonder what a P71 will be worth 5 years from now? I'm thinking more, not less.

Al [/quote]

I watched the same happen with GM B-bodies years ago. Prices bottomed out, supply then bottomed out, then prices went up...supply does not. Odd thing in this instance is Panther supply is still readily available.

Something similiar is occurring with 2000's pickups though, as these new fangled ones have gotten larger, harder to work on, with more technology in them, the older, easier to maintain & repair trucks are jumping up in price. Old trucks are bringing ridiculous prices.
Posted by: DudeAbides

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/10/21 11:52 AM

It's nice to see there's still geezers out there perpetuating the TBW myth. rofl
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/10/21 12:06 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
The vanilla white P71 auction from Fontana that I mentioned above ran out of steam at $5650. So I guess there is a limit to what people will overpay for these cars. That auction was only open to dealers and salvors, so I hate to think what retail price they'll mark this one up to after paying over $6K with fees included.


Im curious to see what it goes for when whoever bought it flips it.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/10/21 02:55 PM

Originally Posted By Armada Master

Ugh, we've got a 2004 CVPI with 106k miles coming up for auction out of my department in a few weeks, hoping these prices settle somewhat by then because I'd like to bid on it, but not paying retail or above on it.


I just sold a nice silver 2004 CVPI with 104k miles. Got $4100 for it. Good luck.

And I agree with you on the trucks. 90's ford trucks up through 2003 generally do much better than ford trucks from the death years of the 2000's to 2010 with the 5.4, 6.0, and 6.4's.
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/17/21 09:33 PM

Just paid $1200 for a white 06 CV with transmission issues included.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/19/21 01:03 AM

I just turned down an offer to buy a $500 2011 black P71 with 85k miles. I drove out to see it all twitter-pated and then saw a crunched front bumper fascia, cracked headplate, both front struts sprung, lord knows what other hidden steering or exhaust issues. (Car hit a telephone pole over both wheels).

I stopped counting cost items when I hit $1500 and realized that my labor wasn't counted. But hey, it started and ran and went into gear.

I'm not seeing any other good auctions out here right now, all are going too high.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/19/21 02:59 PM

And BTW, the car mentioned above with all that damage is currently sitting at $1300 with days still to go. It's making $1200 with a bad tranny look like a steal.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/19/21 04:06 PM

TNTAuctions just closed a big Las Vegas live auction featuring about a dozen late model Crown Vics from LVPD. These were all desert area, rust free patrol cars with the usual expected wear and tear. Bear in mind that TNT charges 13% auction fees on top of winning bid, plus MORE if you pay by credit card. Here's what they sold for:

2011 White CEL on, bent pushbar mounts, poor interior, 81K miles, $2050
2011 White, ABS on, bent mounts, poor interior, 83K miles, $2250
2011 White, bent mounts, 86K, $3000
2011 White, bent mounts, CEL on, 89k, $3000
2009 White, bent mounts, 85k, $3000
2009 Faded Grey, 90k, $4000
2009 White, 91k, $3400
2008 White, bent mounts, ABS light on, 49K, $6100
2009 MGM LS, Silver, 97K, $4000
2004 MGM LS, light blue, 109k, transported, $2400

Here's a look at the cream of the crop, a plain vanilla, steel-wheeled P71 with faded headlights, dirty tan interior, no console, no cruise control, very average ex patrol car with low miles.

2008 p71 - $6100

Decent car, would clean up well, but at $7000 wholesale?





Posted by: GM_Guy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/19/21 04:15 PM

Yikes, somebodys got too much money.
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/19/21 09:01 PM

Wow, $6100 for a white stripper P71. I am surprised to see that there are multiple blemishes visible in the pictures. I was expecting factory fresh immaculate for that price.
Do they bend the push bar brackets down for safety? It looks like it was resprayed after being decommissioned. No oreos coming out of Vegas?
This is the first P71 I have bought with full graphics, partition, a functioning siren, and even an overhead rifle mount. Also the first one I haven't attempted to drive home. Forward gears are very weak in the trans. Free tow with AAA.
Spent most of today peeling off the decals.

Posted by: TheCableGuy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/19/21 09:32 PM

Lived in Vegas for a few years and every in service Crown Vic LVMPD used was white. Every single one I saw. Loads of idle hours likely on them.
Posted by: jasonp1102

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/19/21 11:46 PM

Proxibid seems like a straight-up scam, to be honest. I'm not sure if every single lot is operated the same, but I was watching a FL surplus lot being done by "Royal Auction Group" and it was VERY obvious that there was price manipulation/shilling/gouging going on.

The way RAG does their auctions is basically, all the internet bidding is pre-bidding - they hold an in-person auction on the day the internet bidding "ends", and they START the in-person auction at the highest internet bid, with on-site (in-person) AND internet bids then being allowed.

They then would have flurries of "on-site" bids start pumping the prices up, but on the live camera feed there'd only be 2 or 3 people standing around whatever was being auctioned.

Seems to me that its a VERY easy way for these auction houses to get more money from higher bids = higher % fees.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/20/21 12:48 AM

TNT didn't always utilize Proxibid and in fact, before COVID, they sort of disdained it and penalized those using it, so much so that everyone knew that if you wanted a deal, you had to show up in person on the day of the auction.

Then things slowly changed and of course, COVID hit, forcing them to go to all on-line or face shut down. That crisis was a real Come to Jesus moment and to be frank, it exposed their extreme vulnerability of doing business the old way. But they still don't get it, it seems.

Now they force EVERYONE to go through the internet AND pay the higher "internet" fees. Plus if you do things just the wrong way, you can easily hit 20% in additional fees.

Who actually uses them is a mystery to me. I've only been to 2 of their live auctions and didn't come close to buying anything at either one. My perception was that there was shill bidding going on in the audience.

But don't believe me, you can scroll through an archive of all of their past auctions and you won't find a "deal" anywhere. Just page after page of cars going for more than you think they should have. Maybe this too is indicative of used car price inflation, or maybe it's a bad business model headed for extinction.
Posted by: jasonp1102

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/20/21 01:16 AM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
TNT didn't always utilize Proxibid and in fact, before COVID, they sort of disdained it and penalized those using it, so much so that everyone knew that if you wanted a deal, you had to show up in person on the day of the auction.

Then things slowly changed and of course, COVID hit, forcing them to go to all on-line or face shut down. That crisis was a real Come to Jesus moment and to be frank, it exposed their extreme vulnerability of doing business the old way. But they still don't get it, it seems.

Now they force EVERYONE to go through the internet AND pay the higher "internet" fees. Plus if you do things just the wrong way, you can easily hit 20% in additional fees.

Who actually uses them is a mystery to me. I've only been to 2 of their live auctions and didn't come close to buying anything at either one. My perception was that there was shill bidding going on in the audience.

But don't believe me, you can scroll through an archive of all of their past auctions and you won't find a "deal" anywhere. Just page after page of cars going for more than you think they should have. Maybe this too is indicative of used car price inflation, or maybe it's a bad business model headed for extinction.


It's a shame because this Royal Auction Group company has MANY FL Vics for sale, and I'd surmise they will for a bit into the future, but I'd totally skip the pre-bid and just fly down to FL and go to the auction lot on the day of the auction.

To be honest, though, I far prefer how Govdeals (and I'd assume Municibid, Public Surplus, etc) to operate. You bid, you win or lose when the auction closes, period. You win, you wire transfer and go pick the title and car up when the transfer clears to Govdeals and gets dispersed to the dept. Easy peazy. Plus the higher chance of getting maintenance records, which with an ex-gov car I'd want any record they have. I'm not sure if these auction houses get the maint records unless it's in the trunk or something, I'd think not.

I mentioned in a previous post a SUPER cheap white Vic out of Orlando - it was on Proxibid, listed by this Royal Auction Group company. 2011 plain jane white ex-patrol, manual driver seat w/lumbar, 103k, no rear seat, rear doors had flat/kick panels instead of normal door panels. Paint looked decent, could use a good wash and buff though. It sat at $50 until the day before the internet bidding closed. The morning bidding closed, it shot up to $900. It ended up going for $2400 to an internet bidder after they did the on-site shilling.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/20/21 11:19 AM

All of the on-line auctions work slightly differently and have their advantages and disadvantages. I personally don't like GovPlanet's method of not disclosing the actual pre-live price and forcing you to hunt and peck your way up to it in the moments before the bid "goes live" in the final 3 minutes of the clock. But this method does tend to weed out all the non-players and whittles the field down to just the serious folks.

Fewer bidders at he end is better and I have won stuff at good prices on GovPlanet. I got an electronic message board for $700 that I wanted for the flatbed trailer alone and when I picked it up, the sign still worked and it had $600 of batteries in it, that I sold off again. It's now a welding trailer that cost me all of $100 net. There were no other bidders left at the end.

You've hit upon the two big advantages of the on-line houses vs. live auction lots: 1) the seller is the owner himself, not the lot. I.e. - there is no middleman whose physical possession of the unit allows him to act as an ignorant "cut-out" in the transaction. Auction houses can pose as Sergeant Schultz, "I see nothing, I know nothing!" When you buy from GD, PS, GP etc. you are buying from the sellers themselves and half the time you can get the complete service records. All of the time you get better condition disclosures than you get from the roll-up lots.

But there is one universal maxim common to all... if you want a deal and you want to win, you MUST be "present", meaning awake and paying attention, in the final moments of the auction. No early bids where you set and forget ever win. All you do is tip your hand with an early bid. And frankly, if you really want to hide from the shills, you shouldn't even look at the auction too much or put it on your watch lists, because of course the on-line services can scan that data too and know who is really interested in each auction. You should write it down on a piece of paper and remember to pop back in day of.

I thought I had a good possible last night, a white Las Vegas P71 with pushbar and 74k miles in good shape. Only flaws were prisoner seat and no center console. Auction was scheduled to close a 1 AM Pacific time, who is going to stay up for that? It turns out four lurkers did, myself included. I never actually got a bid in as the three other lurkers declared themselves in the final minutes and bid it up to $3050. This one only had a 3% premium, but figuring in the cost of rear seats, pick-up, etc. there was not enough meat on the bone for me. A year ago, that same car would have gone for $2K.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/21/21 02:13 PM

I’m seeing another trend in recent crown Vic auctions on both Public Surplus and govdeals that is troubling. I am referring to an instant bid up of auctions that hit the boards wherein a decent car will be bid to $3000 in the first day or so of the auction, leaving 5 to 6 days of further bidding to come.

It’s almost like $3000 is the starting price of these 10 to 15 year old P 71s whereas a year ago that would’ve been $1000 over the finishing price of the same car.
Posted by: GM_Guy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/21/21 05:24 PM

That'll be an interesting one to monitor. See if they're trying to force prices even higher. I'd record vin numbers for a couple months with selling price and see if those same cars pop up again in the event they got sold to a shill bidder.
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/22/21 10:44 AM

Some of the quick shot to high prices is the dealers and people who buy in bulk throwing their max bids on the cars they want in one shot and moving on. The shill bidding sucks but guess the auction places don't care because end of the day it only means more profit for them. But at the same time if it happens all the time it's going to make buyers skip those sites.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/23/21 12:37 PM

I tend to agree with the above based on my analyses of bid histories. These "early high bidders" shoot their wads and don't return to the fray in the final minutes. And they don't ever win because an early high bid is very easy to snipe and uncover, then you top them at the last minute.

But I'm also seeing some habitual commercial bidders (such as autospecas) go higher than they've ever done before, on auctions ranging as far as NW Washington to New Mexico. They must have a shortage of cars they are trying to fill.
Posted by: JeffBoudah

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/24/21 08:08 AM

The 04 [censored] box I got for our VicKart was overpriced @ $750.

It needed a new rear end.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/26/21 12:31 PM

For those who may be interested in clean, very low mileage West Coast Vics, this is what you'll be paying these days.

2007 Bay Area Silver LX, 56k miles, $3750 at auction, 3 hrs left
2008 Bay Area White P71, 41k miles, $3700 at auction, 2 hrs left
2010 Utah White CNG Only Vic, 52k miles, $3051 at auction, 2 hrs left. I repeat, a CNG ONLY car! Utah is one of the few states where CNG cars are actually doable without a major hassle, but this car has only 2 years left on its tanks.
2011 Washington Black P7B, low hours, 91k miles, $5150 at auction, 1 day 7 hours left
Posted by: Ponyguy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/26/21 02:25 PM

This car ain't a P71, but it looks like it might be a temptation to someone looking for a nice Panther...

2008 Grand Marquis LS for $11 Grand
Posted by: Armada Master

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/26/21 03:53 PM

I just watched two 2006 Tauruses (82k,95k) go last week on PS for what I sold the same for last year retail. One brought $3k after fees (with bad A/C), the other brought $3500. For an OBS Taurus.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/26/21 08:01 PM

Of the cars I mentioned above, three sold:

2010 Utah CNG car sold for $3900 with fees included. For a CNG only car.
2008 Bay Area White P71 sold for $4400 with fees included.
2007 Bay Area Silver LX sold for $4460 with fees included.

Both of the Bay Area cars barely crept over the $4000 reserve to sell and no one wanted to go higher.
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/27/21 08:39 PM

This one isn't an LX it's just a plain base model Crown Vic so that's really a rip off.

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=387&acctid=9260
Posted by: CrystalPistol

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/27/21 11:15 PM

Originally Posted By Ponyguy
This car ain't a P71, but it looks like it might be a temptation to someone looking for a nice Panther...

2008 Grand Marquis LS for $11 Grand
If one is looking for a flip, it's too high, but if one is looking for a long term reliable comfortable car, that's not bad IMHO.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/28/21 03:07 AM

Auctions closing today on low mileage Vics seemed to be running out of gas.

This very low engine hours one from the State of Washington got to $5,000 several days ago, but then barely reached $5600.

2011 Black P7B, low hours 91K miles

This Public Surplus 2008 White P71 got to $4K but then all the bidders disappeared and sold for $4075.

The curious thing about this auction was that some young entrepreneur tried to flip it on our local want ads for $5000 BEFORE the auction even closed! Enjoy your $525 profit Payton. (Less than $200 if you actually pay sales tax.)

2008 P71 56k Miles

Posted by: CrystalPistol

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/30/21 02:02 PM

If auction prices go up on old used beat up up CVPIs rolleyes ...
... then I think the sale prices on old unmolested not abused MGMs will rise too. double thumbs
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/30/21 08:28 PM

$9500 P71
Not trying to give this guy any grief, but this is a new one for me. Dunno the last time I heard of a P71 selling for that much.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/31/21 12:40 AM

Originally Posted By CrystalPistol
If auction prices go up on old used beat up up CVPIs rolleyes ...
... then I think the sale prices on old unmolested not abused MGMs will[spoiler][/spoiler] rise too.


The prices on E V E R Y T H I N G are going up and will continue to do so until the chip shortage on new vehicles is sated.

I currently have ZERO auctions in my watchlist pipeline (that stretches forward 2 weeks) that I think I can get for a reasonable price. Nothing, nada, zip, zilch. The seller from whom I bought my last two Vics has two more up for auction right now... each with ten days to go... and they're already a $1000 more than I paid for mine. Likely to go for $2-3000 more for what I paid in February and March. I'd have to ask $6000-$7000 k on them to make a profit... for plain jane vanilla white patrol p71's. I can't see that happening and the very nanosecod the chip shortage is solved, this market collapses.

I think instead I'm going to sell my two Vics, one's a cherry 08 p71, the other a 04 Red Sport, while the getting is good. Then I'll re-buy in the fall when things calm down.
Posted by: CrystalPistol

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/31/21 12:52 AM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
04 Red Sport
That the one with 111,xxx? Sounds interesting, but too far for me to even think about. rolleyes But yeah, like you say, now's the time to sell ... buy later down the road. I've had mailed offers on my '07 F-150, the '08 Mustang, even what we still think of as new, our '19 Forester. Dealers looking for stock. If price is right, I'd sell them a '95 Tbird or '77 F-150 maybe, maybe even the Merc ... but they don't know about them.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 05/31/21 07:02 PM

Yes, that's the one with 111k, gray leather interior in pretty good shape, with the strange roof rot pimples that I talk about at length in another thread. I finally got all of the roof pimples sanded and dremeled down, took forever because I had to blast the black crust off of each individual pimple with the dremel. But now I'm hitting it with acid wash and primer today.

It's dark toreador red metallic so not too like your MGM. AC has just been overhauled and with a new battery it should be good to go for a long time once the roof is painted.
Posted by: Armada Master

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/01/21 09:17 AM

2 less than stellar Vics that went for about $1k more than they should have last week:

https://bid.onlinepros.com/ui/auctions/63973/5381975

https://bid.onlinepros.com/ui/auctions/63973/5381976

Note: You still have to factor in a 14%-17% buyer's premium on top of the final bid.
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/01/21 02:14 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
The prices on E V E R Y T H I N G are going up and will continue to do so until the chip shortage on new vehicles is sated.

I currently have ZERO auctions in my watchlist pipeline (that stretches forward 2 weeks) that I think I can get for a reasonable price. Nothing, nada, zip, zilch. The seller from whom I bought my last two Vics has two more up for auction right now... each with ten days to go... and they're already a $1000 more than I paid for mine. Likely to go for $2-3000 more for what I paid in February and March. I'd have to ask $6000-$7000 k on them to make a profit... for plain jane vanilla white patrol p71's. I can't see that happening and the very nanosecod the chip shortage is solved, this market collapses.

I think instead I'm going to sell my two Vics, one's a cherry 08 p71, the other a 04 Red Sport, while the getting is good. Then I'll re-buy in the fall when things calm down.

This is exactly what I was considering when I made this thread. The prices have kept going up...and up. Could have bought a car in feb, stashed it away and made a profit selling it now.
A hell of a bubble, total sellers market.
DEFINITELY going to be making haste in the process of fixing and marketing my latest auction vic.
Posted by: hot__box

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/01/21 08:53 PM

As I've said many times before, though the initial quality of these things when they're going up for sale may be going down, they haven't been produced in 10 years now, they are getting scarce (in comparison to the abundance of their presence before) and are still quite desirable for a number of reasons.

These cars have plateau'd in the sense that their true value is NOT going to go up, but demand for them will keep the prices artificially high for years to come.

Originally Posted By Armada Master
2 less than stellar Vics that went for about $1k more than they should have last week:

https://bid.onlinepros.com/ui/auctions/63973/5381975

https://bid.onlinepros.com/ui/auctions/63973/5381976

Note: You still have to factor in a 14%-17% buyer's premium on top of the final bid.


What's wrong with the second one? 97K, velour bench seats.. not that bad if you ask me.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/02/21 01:38 AM

Poor paint on the hood is the biggest ding on the second car.

I agree, they're about $1k to $1500 overpriced over what the same cars would have fetched last year. This is not to say they're bad cars. No Crown Vic is bad, we know that. They just pricier than they used to be, and not because they're getting scarce. I've bought and sold 8 vics here in Utah and I've seen 3 of them get resold after me, one twice. Each time for more money. The supply hasn't diminished, but the prices are still going up. They are not "rare" cars. They're not Sports or MGM LSE's. They are plain jane p71's. And every one of these cars we see at auction are first time sales, new to the wholesale market.

I also don't agree that quality of the cars coming up for sale has been going down. I rather think that the cars being offered for the first time at auction has improved in the last year. Most police agencies and municipalities have at worst a 10 year/100000 mile rotation schedule. For the cars that get used/driven hard, the mileage comes first and those cars have already been sold off. That's why we see so many shot-out Dodge Chargers that are only 5-10 years old but with just over 100k miles. These cars are worn out and their agencies are dumping them at their first opportunity.

But on the other end of the spectrum here in 2021 we're now seeing the last of the service cars, a bunch of 10 to 15 year old Vics which only got light usage during their service lives and thus didn't hit 100K miles. So now they're being reluctantly offered up in still quite good condition.

I'm seeing lots and lots of sub 100k Vics at auction with no complaints as to quality. I just can't bear to pony up the dough it takes to win them.
Posted by: hot__box

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/02/21 09:13 AM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
They just pricier than they used to be, and not because they're getting scarce. I've bought and sold 8 vics here in Utah and I've seen 3 of them get resold after me, one twice. Each time for more money. The supply hasn't diminished, but the prices are still going up. They are not "rare" cars. They're not Sports or MGM LSE's. They are plain jane p71's.



Bro, they’re getting scarce. That is the main factor behind their price increase. (Not to say there aren’t other factors). There is a driving force behind every market change; things don’t “just are priceier than they used to be” for no reason.

I’ve bought and sold as many Crown Vics as you, actually probably more.. the one time abundance that was available is no longer, the well has run dry. It sounds like your particular area still has a few drips left in the pipeline, but that doesn’t change the bigger picture.

There was a time from 10 years ago all the way up about two to three years ago, where the simply query of “Crown Victoria” on craigslist would yield dozens of results.. from grandpa cars, GMQ’s,P71’s, ex-rentals, clapped out Sports, auction cars, private sellers and dealers alike.

Now I go on craigslist and type in Crown Victoria, you know what pops up? A $50 parts car, one decent looking base model, a junk car removal ad, and a bunch of rim ads.

See for yourself:

https://neworleans.craigslist.org/d/for-sale/search/sss?query=crown%20victoria&sort=rel

If we go by the definition of “rare”, actually, yes they’re becoming rare. Especially in good shape. How many 93-97 CVPI’s do you see left? Boxes? Just because there was a 100,000 of them on the road before doesn’t mean anything.. they almost don’t exist anymore.. making them rare. Now, let’s be absolutely clear: rarity does not equal valuable, but these cars do have value to them, regardless of rarity. And yes, we’re still a ways off from ‘98+ body style being as hard to find as an aero or box.

And being plain Jane doesn’t affect their value much either; an MGM or even a LX Sport is only a couple half notches higher on the “vanilla” scale.. these cars, regardless of trim level, just are simply not modern and have very little to offer in the amenities category. Even the coveted Marauder lacks the sophisticated technology that new Camry’s are rolling off of dealer lots with. But don’t you see? That’s what people want! People are tired of every single thing needing to do a hundred computer processes just to do one function.. they’re tired of having to “talk to the car nice” or it refuses to start (exaggerating for emphasis) .. they want to get their hands on something a little less complex, a little more simple, a little more back to basics.. enter the panther.


Finally, I’m OK with agreeing to disagree about the quality of cars when initially offered for sale. Most “clean” ones I see are just dolled up pigs..not to say every one is. And yes, panthers are still staying in service a lot longer than usual, cops know this is the end of the line for these things and it seems ones with some seniority have convinced departments to keep them in service just a littttttle bit longer.


Posted by: AlleyG

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/02/21 09:28 AM

^^Agree.

These prices are not suddenly going to correct "in the fall or whenever", at least not by much. This is the new price for a CVPI, and it's about time. At least our cars are now worth something.

These cars are getting used up, or donked, and finding a desirable one in good shape is getting harder and harder.

Al
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/02/21 10:58 AM

The numbers are going down. The number of used ones for sale are slowly shrinking as are the number of auction cars.

This comment probably explains a lot of it

Quote:
But on the other end of the spectrum here in 2021 we're now seeing the last of the service cars, a bunch of 10 to 15 year old Vics which only got light usage during their service lives and thus didn't hit 100K miles. So now they're being reluctantly offered up in still quite good condition.


Auction buyers looking for their own car would rather buy one of those directly from the source then the over priced junk being sold privately and flippers also know there's more profit to me made off them.

Around here there are also less showing up in yards so the dealers who buy and sell multiple cars at a time are probably more likely to pay more for the junkers then they were before if they're having a harder time finding the parts they need cheap to fix anything on their better cars prior to listing them for sale.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/02/21 03:24 PM

Originally Posted By hot__box



Bro, they’re getting scarce. That is the main factor behind their price increase. (Not to say there aren’t other factors). There is a driving force behind every market change; things don’t “just are priceier than they used to be” for no reason.

Now I go on craigslist and type in Crown Victoria, you know what pops up? A $50 parts car, one decent looking base model, a junk car removal ad, and a bunch of rim ads.

If we go by the definition of “rare”, actually, yes they’re becoming rare. Especially in good shape. How many 93-97 CVPI’s do you see left? Boxes? Just because there was a 100,000 of them on the road before doesn’t mean anything.. they almost don’t exist anymore.. making them rare. Now, let’s be absolutely clear: rarity does not equal valuable, but these cars do have value to them, regardless of rarity. And yes, we’re still a ways off from ‘98+ body style being as hard to find as an aero or box.

And being plain Jane doesn’t affect their value much either; an MGM or even a LX Sport is only a couple half notches higher on the “vanilla” scale.. these cars, regardless of trim level, just are simply not modern and have very little to offer in the amenities category. Even the coveted Marauder lacks the sophisticated technology that new Camry’s are rolling off of dealer lots with. But don’t you see? That’s what people want! People are tired of every single thing needing to do a hundred computer processes just to do one function.. they’re tired of having to “talk to the car nice” or it refuses to start (exaggerating for emphasis) .. they want to get their hands on something a little less complex, a little more simple, a little more back to basics.. enter the panther.


Finally, I’m OK with agreeing to disagree about the quality of cars when initially offered for sale. Most “clean” ones I see are just dolled up pigs..not to say every one is. And yes, panthers are still staying in service a lot longer than usual, cops know this is the end of the line for these things and it seems ones with some seniority have convinced departments to keep them in service just a littttttle bit longer.


Hate to disagree again, but I will.

Bro, they're not getting scarce. Perhaps in frozen Canada, or the rust belt East Coast and the humid gulf where they are inexorably rotting away, and the service fleets have already been depleted, but out here in the dry temperate West where I live, they are just as plentiful, just as decent, just as fresh as they've ever been since I started buying and selling them five years ago. We've got no shortage of cars. The last Las Vegas live auction I followed had a dozen on the blocks.

So I'm not just watching the same small market of recirculating craig's list used cars whose population shrinks every year. I'm following the one-owner fleet cars that are coming to market for the first time at auction as their 10 year service life ends. Many local fleets still have dozens of Vics in service that they're holding onto because they still run and they like them, even as they are dumping their 2015 Chargers with only 80K miles in need of cams and lifters.

I have no shortage of first time to market cars to bid on in my usual categories of Explorers, Chargers, Tauruses, Expeditions, service body work trucks and Vics. I have just as many pickin's as ever I had... it's just that they're all up in price across the board in 2021 over what they were selling for from 2015 to late 2020.

And I never said that they were getting pricier for "no reason". The reason is the chip shortage affecting the overall availability of new cars, which has caused the corporate fleet purchasers to dip into the fresh used market, driving prices up there, which trickles down to the less-freshly-used market, which trickles down to us. While this thread is about Vics, cause that's what we care about, the indisputable fact is that ALL USED CARS HAVE SPIKED IN PRICE recently.

Now on to the last points you make in your post, all of which seem to argue AGAINST these cars having sustained value besides whatever temporary spike we're seeing now.

1) I agree with you, like Aero's and Whales, they're not special cars, they'll never be collectors cars and except for a small coterie of quirky afficionados who are not large enough to sustain a hyped collector market, they'll likely command only modest resale prices just like their predecessor generations have done, regardless of how few babied, garaged cherries remain. What's the rarest leftover American car today? Probably the lowly Ford Pinto, millions made, millions [censored], who would ever bother to keep or restore one? No one's investing in Pintos hoping the prices will rise.

2) They are, as you said, technologically obsolete plain jane cars. Even the rarer ones aren't very special. This is what will eventually damn them all, especially in five years when anyone not driving a Lightning will seem hopelessly Victorian.

I've loved all my ten panthers, but I recognize that they're popular because of the internet hype and the fact that camry's and accords are even pricier. I'll keep buying them when I think the market isn't subject to some temporary inflationary puffing due to a covid related chip shortage, but for the time being, I'm selling.
Posted by: hot__box

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/02/21 04:54 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch

Bro, they're not getting scarce. Perhaps in frozen Canada, or the rust belt East Coast and the humid gulf where they are inexorably rotting away, and the service fleets have already been depleted, but out here in the dry temperate West where I live, they are just as plentiful, just as decent, just as fresh as they've ever been since I started buying and selling them five years ago. We've got no shortage of cars. The last Las Vegas live auction I followed had a dozen on the blocks.


OK so, basically they’re scarce everywhere in North America except for your particular locale..., you’ve proven my point:

Originally Posted By hot__box

I’ve bought and sold as many Crown Vics as you, actually probably more.. the one time abundance that was available is no longer, the well has run dry. It sounds like your particular area still has a few drips left in the pipeline, but that doesn’t change the bigger picture.


BTW, cars don’t rot in the humid gulf states.



Quote:
I have no shortage of first time to market cars to bid on in my usual categories of Explorers, Chargers, Tauruses, Expeditions, service body work trucks and Vics. I have just as many pickin's as ever I had... it's just that they're all up in price across the board in 2021 over what they were selling for from 2015 to late 2020.

And I never said that they were getting pricier for "no reason". The reason is the chip shortage affecting the overall availability of new cars, which has caused the corporate fleet purchasers to dip into the fresh used market, driving prices up there, which trickles down to the less-freshly-used market, which trickles down to us. While this thread is about Vics, cause that's what we care about, the indisputable fact is that ALL USED CARS HAVE SPIKED IN PRICE recently.


I’m quite aware of the price uptick on used cars. My best friend is a finance manager at a large dealership here, he’s told me that they’ve been having a hard time keeping cars on the lot so they buy em for top dollar and sell em for an even higher top dollar.

That is tomatoes/tomahhtoes.. while it’s no doubt the used car market.. like every single market in the country has seen a surge in prices, and that could be in conjunction with used car shortages, it’s not the only reason. It’s quite funny how you seem to think that this is simply a market fluctuation, and nothing more.

Quote:
Now on to the last points you make in your post, all of which seem to argue AGAINST these cars having sustained value besides whatever temporary spike we're seeing now.

1) I agree with you, like Aero's and Whales, they're not special cars, they'll never be collectors cars and except for a small coterie of quirky afficionados who are not large enough to sustain a hyped collector market, they'll likely command only modest resale prices just like their predecessor generations have done, regardless of how few babied, garaged cherries remain. What's the rarest leftover American car today? Probably the lowly Ford Pinto, millions made, millions [censored], who would ever bother to keep or restore one? No one's investing in Pintos hoping the prices will rise.

2) They are, as you said, technologically obsolete plain jane cars. Even the rarer ones aren't very special. This is what will eventually damn them all, especially in five years when anyone not driving a Lightning will seem hopelessly Victorian.


If you would have read my post, my points do no argue against their value.. actually quite the contrary. My point was that the panther platform’s simplicity is actually instrumental in bringing up their value, besides they scarcity you seem to not think exists.

Some people are tired of the mega-tech and are looking for a little more bare-bones. Look at Jeep XJ values right now.


Quote:
I've loved all my ten panthers, but I recognize that they're popular because of the internet hype and the fact that camry's and accords are even pricier. I'll keep buying them when I think the market isn't subject to some temporary inflationary puffing due to a covid related chip shortage, but for the time being, I'm selling.


I hear ya. I’m not knocking your hustle, do your thing. But we see it thru two completely different lens, which is alright. We just simply do not agree.
Posted by: Armada Master

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/03/21 10:51 AM

Originally Posted By hot__box


Originally Posted By Armada Master
2 less than stellar Vics that went for about $1k more than they should have last week:

https://bid.onlinepros.com/ui/auctions/63973/5381975

https://bid.onlinepros.com/ui/auctions/63973/5381976

Note: You still have to factor in a 14%-17% buyer's premium on top of the final bid.


What's wrong with the second one? 97K, velour bench seats.. not that bad if you ask me.




The condition of the hood vs. the price it brought.
Posted by: Armada Master

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/03/21 10:53 AM

Originally Posted By hot__box
Originally Posted By Dmblanch
They just pricier than they used to be, and not because they're getting scarce. I've bought and sold 8 vics here in Utah and I've seen 3 of them get resold after me, one twice. Each time for more money. The supply hasn't diminished, but the prices are still going up. They are not "rare" cars. They're not Sports or MGM LSE's. They are plain jane p71's.



Bro, they’re getting scarce. That is the main factor behind their price increase. (Not to say there aren’t other factors). There is a driving force behind every market change; things don’t “just are priceier than they used to be” for no reason.

I’ve bought and sold as many Crown Vics as you, actually probably more.. the one time abundance that was available is no longer, the well has run dry. It sounds like your particular area still has a few drips left in the pipeline, but that doesn’t change the bigger picture.

There was a time from 10 years ago all the way up about two to three years ago, where the simply query of “Crown Victoria” on craigslist would yield dozens of results.. from grandpa cars, GMQ’s,P71’s, ex-rentals, clapped out Sports, auction cars, private sellers and dealers alike.

Now I go on craigslist and type in Crown Victoria, you know what pops up? A $50 parts car, one decent looking base model, a junk car removal ad, and a bunch of rim ads.

See for yourself:

https://neworleans.craigslist.org/d/for-sale/search/sss?query=crown%20victoria&sort=rel

If we go by the definition of “rare”, actually, yes they’re becoming rare. Especially in good shape. How many 93-97 CVPI’s do you see left? Boxes? Just because there was a 100,000 of them on the road before doesn’t mean anything.. they almost don’t exist anymore.. making them rare. Now, let’s be absolutely clear: rarity does not equal valuable, but these cars do have value to them, regardless of rarity. And yes, we’re still a ways off from ‘98+ body style being as hard to find as an aero or box.

And being plain Jane doesn’t affect their value much either; an MGM or even a LX Sport is only a couple half notches higher on the “vanilla” scale.. these cars, regardless of trim level, just are simply not modern and have very little to offer in the amenities category. Even the coveted Marauder lacks the sophisticated technology that new Camry’s are rolling off of dealer lots with. But don’t you see? That’s what people want! People are tired of every single thing needing to do a hundred computer processes just to do one function.. they’re tired of having to “talk to the car nice” or it refuses to start (exaggerating for emphasis) .. they want to get their hands on something a little less complex, a little more simple, a little more back to basics.. enter the panther.


Finally, I’m OK with agreeing to disagree about the quality of cars when initially offered for sale. Most “clean” ones I see are just dolled up pigs..not to say every one is. And yes, panthers are still staying in service a lot longer than usual, cops know this is the end of the line for these things and it seems ones with some seniority have convinced departments to keep them in service just a littttttle bit longer.




Well said.

Also this desire for simpler vehicles vs. today's techno-laden new models is driving up pickup truck prices as well. Some early-mid 2000's trucks are bringing the same money or close to trucks made ten years later.
Posted by: Armada Master

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/03/21 11:02 AM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Originally Posted By hot__box



Bro, they’re getting scarce. That is the main factor behind their price increase. (Not to say there aren’t other factors). There is a driving force behind every market change; things don’t “just are priceier than they used to be” for no reason.

Now I go on craigslist and type in Crown Victoria, you know what pops up? A $50 parts car, one decent looking base model, a junk car removal ad, and a bunch of rim ads.

If we go by the definition of “rare”, actually, yes they’re becoming rare. Especially in good shape. How many 93-97 CVPI’s do you see left? Boxes? Just because there was a 100,000 of them on the road before doesn’t mean anything.. they almost don’t exist anymore.. making them rare. Now, let’s be absolutely clear: rarity does not equal valuable, but these cars do have value to them, regardless of rarity. And yes, we’re still a ways off from ‘98+ body style being as hard to find as an aero or box.

And being plain Jane doesn’t affect their value much either; an MGM or even a LX Sport is only a couple half notches higher on the “vanilla” scale.. these cars, regardless of trim level, just are simply not modern and have very little to offer in the amenities category. Even the coveted Marauder lacks the sophisticated technology that new Camry’s are rolling off of dealer lots with. But don’t you see? That’s what people want! People are tired of every single thing needing to do a hundred computer processes just to do one function.. they’re tired of having to “talk to the car nice” or it refuses to start (exaggerating for emphasis) .. they want to get their hands on something a little less complex, a little more simple, a little more back to basics.. enter the panther.


Finally, I’m OK with agreeing to disagree about the quality of cars when initially offered for sale. Most “clean” ones I see are just dolled up pigs..not to say every one is. And yes, panthers are still staying in service a lot longer than usual, cops know this is the end of the line for these things and it seems ones with some seniority have convinced departments to keep them in service just a littttttle bit longer.


Hate to disagree again, but I will.

Bro, they're not getting scarce. Perhaps in frozen Canada, or the rust belt East Coast and the humid gulf where they are inexorably rotting away, and the service fleets have already been depleted, but out here in the dry temperate West where I live, they are just as plentiful, just as decent, just as fresh as they've ever been since I started buying and selling them five years ago. We've got no shortage of cars. The last Las Vegas live auction I followed had a dozen on the blocks.


Yes, they are getting scarce, especially compared to just a year or two ago.

The auction I listed above a couple of years ago was almost all Crown Vics, now it's mostly Exploders & two Crown Vics. I'll bet next year that same sale will be down to one or no Vics. Also a Craigslist search in my southern state a used to reveal an endless choice of Panthers to choose from. Now if there are any, they're high mileage, clapped out, junk with the occasional, rare low mileage gem usually demanding a premium price. This will not get better even if the used car bubble burst, the supply of Panthers is beginning to wither away.
Posted by: Binding_Posts_

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/07/21 09:04 PM

Govdeals is also known for shill bids. Driving up the bids intentionally.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/08/21 12:38 AM

All I can say is that if you think Crown Vic's are in short supply in your neighborhood, come west. They are e v e r y w h e r e west of the rockies in great supply, that hasn't diminished at all in past several years. I'm talking cars with less than 100k miles. Within a $75 plane ticket from me I probably have 20 Vics on my radar right now. I'll get none of them because the prices they are being bid up to are absurd.

And whether or not they are scarce in your market, but plentiful in mine is IRRELEVANT, because I'm not comparing prices between markets. I'm only tracking the inflated prices at auction in my markets, not the Craigslist want ads in Baton Rouge. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this thread is labelled "Inflated P71 Auction Prices", is it not?

Back to the actual thread topic, two sold at auction this morning from a seller about 40 minutes from me by commuter train, both white patrol 2010 p7b's. This is a seller from which I have bought two cars in March. Both were identical to the cars I bought albeit with lower mileage. These two most recent sold at auction for $5003 and $7038 with fees included.

Plain White Patrol 2010 P7B - 53K miles - Sold for $7038

All I can say is wow.

As a case study, here are all the Vics this one seller has sold in the past 9 months, see if you can spot a pattern, other than the fact that the seller is obviously saving his best for last.

8/18/20 2009 White p71 124k miles $798 NO MECHANICAL FLAWS
8/18/20 2010 White p7b 103k miles $1045
11/17/20 2009 White p71 89k miles $2007
3/10/21 2010 White p7b 106k miles $2729 to me
3/12/21 2010 White p7b 112k miles $2557
3/31/21 2011 White p7b 96k miles $2227
3/31/21 2010 White p7b 104k miles $2337 to me
4/28/21 2010 White p7b 99k miles $3304
4/28/21 2010 White p7b 70k miles $5555
5/26/21 2010 White p7b 51k miles $3906 CNG ONLY vehicle
6/7/21 2010 White p7b 57k miles $5003
6/7/21 2010 White p7b 53k miles $7038

Nah, prices aren't dramatically inflated in the short run at all. That's just the "new going rate" for these "scarce" cars.

Tell that to Ogden, because they have at least 6 more 2010 Vics in the pipeline that are just like the ones they've sold this year. They'll be happy to hear that their cars are scarce and this is the new going rate. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that their fleet manager is actually dumping low mileage Vics that could remain in the fleet a few more years simply because he can't believe the prices they are fetching.
Posted by: hot__box

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/08/21 10:41 AM

The market comparison was to prove my point, which is obviously valid. You have nice pickings in your area, good for you. Tell that to the rest of the country where these cars are dwindling away, fast.

I’d like to see that cavalier attitude in two or so more years. Lol.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/09/21 06:28 PM

Hate to disagree, but comparisons across widely disparate markets are meaningless if the intent is to illustrate short term inflationary prices, because not all markets are the same. Availability of Alfas in Ancona is much different than in Albuquerque. Likewise, retail want-ad to wholesale auction comparisons are meaningless. Likewise LX, MGM, Town Car comparisons to p71 prices are meaningless.

Might I suggest that if in your market you don't have any P71's at auction, then this is probably not a topic upon which you can offer meaningful commentary?

Likewise, my attitude in TWO YEARS will obviously be different than it is today. My attitude changes constantly with the market and the market is changing rapidly in the short term due to inflationary pressures not caused by supply shortages.

If you want to identify causality among statistical clutter, you have to first eliminate disparities. Hence the reason why I tried to supply data from a single seller of nearly identical cars over the short term.

Back to actual topic, which is for those who've forgotten "Inflated P71 Auction Prices".

On my auction agenda for today, I only had SEVEN p71's closing. (I know, I know, but they're so "scarce".) To my surprise, I actually won one of them. All were cars I deemed to be in solid working mechanical condition, with minimal cosmetic defects. See if you can guess which one I won.

2010 White P7B 74k miles sold for $3680
2010 White P7B 80k miles sold for $3775
2007 Charcoal p71 104k miles sold for $3345
2009 Sky blue p71 95K miles sold for $3680
2009 White P71 74K miles sold for $3315
2005 White P71 115k miles sold for $2054
2010 White P7b 92k miles sold for $3610

I won the 2005, for a top bid of $1876, $2054 with fees. This will be the highest mileage Vic I've ever purchased, I've owned two other 2005's before, and I like 'em well enough.

There's definitely a trend with the other cars, all went for over $3000. Is that the new baseline price for decent vics? Seems to be out here. Other than that, I'm loathe to pick out any meaningful price distinction between these very similar cars. At least there were no absurdities going on like with the $5 and $7k Ogden cars of Monday.
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/10/21 11:24 AM

The supply is definitely on a steady decline in my area, but there will still be nice cars in the auction pipeline for years to come.
These cars are not scarce yet but as we discussed previously in this thread, no longer will you find scores of them in every corner of the used or wholesale market.
Posted by: jasonp1102

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/10/21 02:43 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Hate to disagree, but comparisons across widely disparate markets are meaningless if the intent is to illustrate short term inflationary prices, because not all markets are the same. Availability of Alfas in Ancona is much different than in Albuquerque. Likewise, retail want-ad to wholesale auction comparisons are meaningless. Likewise LX, MGM, Town Car comparisons to p71 prices are meaningless.

Might I suggest that if in your market you don't have any P71's at auction, then this is probably not a topic upon which you can offer meaningful commentary?

Likewise, my attitude in TWO YEARS will obviously be different than it is today. My attitude changes constantly with the market and the market is changing rapidly in the short term due to inflationary pressures not caused by supply shortages.

If you want to identify causality among statistical clutter, you have to first eliminate disparities. Hence the reason why I tried to supply data from a single seller of nearly identical cars over the short term.

Back to actual topic, which is for those who've forgotten "Inflated P71 Auction Prices".

On my auction agenda for today, I only had SEVEN p71's closing. (I know, I know, but they're so "scarce".) To my surprise, I actually won one of them. All were cars I deemed to be in solid working mechanical condition, with minimal cosmetic defects. See if you can guess which one I won.

2010 White P7B 74k miles sold for $3680
2010 White P7B 80k miles sold for $3775
2007 Charcoal p71 104k miles sold for $3345
2009 Sky blue p71 95K miles sold for $3680
2009 White P71 74K miles sold for $3315
2005 White P71 115k miles sold for $2054
2010 White P7b 92k miles sold for $3610

I won the 2005, for a top bid of $1876, $2054 with fees. This will be the highest mileage Vic I've ever purchased, I've owned two other 2005's before, and I like 'em well enough.

There's definitely a trend with the other cars, all went for over $3000. Is that the new baseline price for decent vics? Seems to be out here. Other than that, I'm loathe to pick out any meaningful price distinction between these very similar cars. At least there were no absurdities going on like with the $5 and $7k Ogden cars of Monday.


To be honest none of those prices are too absurd for good, clean Vics imo, especially from out west. I wouldn't hestitate to pay those prices for any one of them, even if the whites were all standard optioned ex-patrols, as long as the paint was clean. Can always go visit a junkyard for a couple hundred dollars and pull civi seats.

In my personal journey I'm looking for probably one like the Sky Blue 09 or Charcoal 07 you have listed, if they were SAP/SAP-lites. I personally wouldn't want an 05 because I like the digital cluster but for that price that is definitely not bad at all.


On the topic of markets, at least from my searches (NJ/PA area and Tampa/Orlando area), it seems auction prices have essentially reached last year's craigslist prices of the civilian trim lines. I haven't seen too many that have gone for egregious money. I had my eye on a couple ex-patrol white 07-11s from Orlando PD that all went between $2000-3000 inc fees, saw a couple SAP-lites that went for $3500ish. Whether it stays like that, who knows. Supply is definitely going down, there's no doubt about that. But how long it will take to truly dry up across all parts of the country, that's anyones guess. I'd figure in 2-3 more years we will probably be seeing the very last of the P71s/P7Bs hitting auction blocks.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/10/21 05:36 PM

Not many “scarce” P71s on my auction watch calendar today, only three of the best late-model vehicles that I have seen this year out of Sacramento California, all SAP‘s from 2006 to 2007 in attractive non-white colors with under 80,000 miles and under 300 engine hours.

With that kind of mileage and idling histories these are truly detective cars in as good a condition as one could expect from 13 year old police vehicles. No mechanical flaws no cosmetic issues whatsoever. Basically as good a vehicle as you can expect to find in today’s auction markets.

So how did they do? Surprisingly they attracted very few bidders, only about a dozen bids were submitted on each one of the three auctions. This was due to the fact that novice early bidders bid all three cars up so high so early that there was no last-minute competition for any of them.

The first one was a sky blue 2007 full SAP P71 with 80,000 miles and only 323 hours it closed at $4785 with fees.

I was not able to watch the second one close. it was a silver 2007 full SAP with 74,000 miles and only 200 engine hours. When last I saw it it had very few bids and was already over $4400. It probably topped out around five k or more.

The third one was a dark blue metallic full SAP 2006 with 73,000 miles and just over 210 hours. It finished off at $6060 but again there was no last-minute bidding. It was as if the outsiders shot the moon early and nobody else wanted to go over the top of them or probe where their top might have been.

There is definitely no feeding frenzy associated with any of these auctions and these were about as good a Vic as you could ask for. They are the kind of cars that the Arizona dealership that specializes in these things could probably sell for eight or $9000, as ridiculous as that sounds to most of us.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/11/21 02:29 AM

The second car cited above, the silver 2007 did indeed sell over $5K. It closed at $5610.
Posted by: GM_Guy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/11/21 06:35 PM

Sounds like people are putting a little too much faith in those odometer/hour readings.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/11/21 06:40 PM

Or a little too much weight on a low odometer reading.

I get it they are worth a premium, but is it worth it to pay $4 or $5000 more for a car that has 50,000 versus one that has 100,000 miles? Especially when these Vics will go to 2 or 300k miles without a problem?

On a 20 or $30,000 car, sure. But on a 2 thousand dollar car?
Posted by: Old_Guy_Stu

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/11/21 09:14 PM

If you assume the car has a useful life of 200K, then it does make sense. Instead of paying $4000 (which is the new $2000) for one that's half used up, you pay 5000 for one that's only 1/4 used up. You pay 20% more for 150% more life.

That's assuming you're buying the car to keep. If you're flipping 'em, keep looking for those $2000 bargains.
Posted by: jasonp1102

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/12/21 02:07 AM

Originally Posted By GM_Guy
Sounds like people are putting a little too much faith in those odometer/hour readings.


People do put too much weight into hour readings. It's very clear to me that some of these cars have new clusters that didn't get hours transferred (if they are even programmable, I've read around that they are not.)

For reference, I bought my 07 at 156k / 734hrs. It's now at 170k / 835hrs, or 14k miles / 101hrs over 17 months, and I don't idle in P/N much besides when doing maintenance work that involves idling or warming the car up in the winter for a few mins before I leave work or whatever. When I see some of these cars with 150k miles but only like 300 hours on the cluster, even 73k/210hrs like the one car Dmblanch referenced, it makes me think the cluster was replaced.
Posted by: GM_Guy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/12/21 10:04 AM

Thats my angle, the base clusters (be it in a grand marquis, regular crown vic or the cvpi version) are trouble prone, and there is no telling how many of these cars received a new cluster while in service. Which leads me to another question; of these ex-cop cars, how many states do not record police cars in with the dmv? (I think florida is one) so if you run a carfax you get essentially no odometer record through the years to spot any major changes, only an odometer reading once the car falls into private hands.

Its like shysters that claim low mileage on 5 digit mechanical odometers -- "only 54,000 original miles!" on a 1976. B.S. is my first reaction, it might be 54, 154, 254, or even 354. My Box Grand Marquis when the guy who bought it was parting it out claimed it only had 86,0000 miles because that is all it showed, well, let me tell you, I rolled that puppy over 2 times. But the car was well kept and did look like only 86k. for those that don't know, it got hit and insurance wrote it off hence somebody getting their hands on it to part it out) Mechanical inspection is your only true indicator of vehicle quality.


As for the hour meter, look through the last page or two in 'what ya do to your panther' thread, posted the grand marquis cluster I turned on the hour meter that I just installed in my cvpi. Zero hours right now. The cluster has ~145k miles on it--40k more than I actually have--in our system cops have to register yearly with our "dmv" so mileage is verified. Hour meter didn't log hours unless its been enabled. So now my cvpi has a 145k miles and 0 hours vs the 1979 hours it had...
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/12/21 01:14 PM

My most recent vic purchase has 120k miles and 800 hours on the meter. Lowest hours I can recall personally seeing on a P71. And I don't believe it for a minute.
The car looks to have been on pretty rough patrol duty. I was expecting at least a couple thousand hours on the meter based on the condition of the car.
Another P71 the same agency was auctioning at the same time had a civi cluster swapped in.

2007 CVPI
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/12/21 04:35 PM

Originally Posted By Old_Guy_Stu
If you assume the car has a useful life of 200K, then it does make sense. Instead of paying $4000 (which is the new $2000) for one that's half used up, you pay 5000 for one that's only 1/4 used up. You pay 20% more for 150% more life.

That's assuming you're buying the car to keep. If you're flipping 'em, keep looking for those $2000 bargains.


Allow me to turn your math against you for a second.

Reading above you’ll see that I just purchased a 115,000 mile P71 for $2075. I also highlighted quite a few 50,000 mile vics that sold for over $5000. These are not hypothetical numbers these are actual.

Using your same 200,000 mile benchmark I have 85,000 miles left and can replace my car once for $4150 giving me 170,000 miles of life for around $4000 versus their 150,000 miles of life for $5000. This is without taking into consideration that I can probably till sell the first 200,000 miles Vic for around 1000 when I dump it.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/12/21 04:49 PM

Originally Posted By jasonp1102
Originally Posted By GM_Guy
Sounds like people are putting a little too much faith in those odometer/hour readings.


People do put too much weight into hour readings. It's very clear to me that some of these cars have new clusters that didn't get hours transferred (if they are even programmable, I've read around that they are not.)

For reference, I bought my 07 at 156k / 734hrs. It's now at 170k / 835hrs, or 14k miles / 101hrs over 17 months, and I don't idle in P/N much besides when doing maintenance work that involves idling or warming the car up in the winter for a few mins before I leave work or whatever. When I see some of these cars with 150k miles but only like 300 hours on the cluster, even 73k/210hrs like the one car Dmblanch referenced, it makes me think the cluster was replaced.


If the cluster was replaced why would that not affect the mileage total as well? I can’t see why anyone would want to tamper with the hour total and not lower the mileage total as well especially when preparing the car for retail resale.

Perhaps I am confused in reading your posts, are you saying that you know categorically that the hour meter in a crown Victoria P71 can be turned off and on at will and that police agencies regularly do this? If so, come right out and state it and then we can all forever cease paying any attention to the hourmeters in our cars. If not,please explain how one would swap out a cluster to get a lower hourmeter total but not produce a mileage advantage?

Does the odometer read the embedded mileage from the PCM but the hour total does not carry over when a cluster is switched? If this is the case then I can see artificially low hour totals happening all the time, especially on cars from the 2006 to 2009 vintages that are known to have soldering problems on the odometer requiring refurbishment or replacement.

That said, I am one of the first to scratch my head over Ford’s methodology in tallying engine hours. I can’t understand why crown Victoria’s, even the ones that are used heavily as patrol cars, only end up with four or 5000 hours but almost every explorer interceptor I see has 10,000 or more over a shorter lifespan.

While I tend to run Carfax reports on most of the cars that I buy and for the auctions that I am interested in, those cars owned by municipalities rarely turn up any mileage records in the half dozen states that I buy from, Instead, complete fleet service records are usually available on about half of the vehicles that I chase. These records are far more comprehensive than anything produced by Carfax or even the most anal compulsive of civilian car owners.

I have never once seen a cluster replaced on a service record and never once seen in mileage discrepancy with the odometer read out at the time of purchase.
Posted by: jasonp1102

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/13/21 03:31 AM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Originally Posted By jasonp1102
Originally Posted By GM_Guy
Sounds like people are putting a little too much faith in those odometer/hour readings.


People do put too much weight into hour readings. It's very clear to me that some of these cars have new clusters that didn't get hours transferred (if they are even programmable, I've read around that they are not.)

For reference, I bought my 07 at 156k / 734hrs. It's now at 170k / 835hrs, or 14k miles / 101hrs over 17 months, and I don't idle in P/N much besides when doing maintenance work that involves idling or warming the car up in the winter for a few mins before I leave work or whatever. When I see some of these cars with 150k miles but only like 300 hours on the cluster, even 73k/210hrs like the one car Dmblanch referenced, it makes me think the cluster was replaced.


If the cluster was replaced why would that not affect the mileage total as well? I can’t see why anyone would want to tamper with the hour total and not lower the mileage total as well especially when preparing the car for retail resale.

Perhaps I am confused in reading your posts, are you saying that you know categorically that the hour meter in a crown Victoria P71 can be turned off and on at will and that police agencies regularly do this? If so, come right out and state it and then we can all forever cease paying any attention to the hourmeters in our cars. If not,please explain how one would swap out a cluster to get a lower hourmeter total but not produce a mileage advantage?


I'm not saying that the cluster was replaced to fool idle hours, I'm saying the clusters were replaced due to the solder point issues and the hours were most likely not transferred, if they are programmable at all.

The hour meter WAS an option that could be "deleted" but it still counted. My 2008 had the hour meter disabled (had to enable through Forscan) despite it being optioned WITH the meter. I have seen several CVPIs also go to auction with the hours not being acccessable ie. they were factory "deleted" OR the fleet manager had them disabled.

Quote:
Does the odometer read the embedded mileage from the PCM but the hour total does not carry over when a cluster is switched? If this is the case then I can see artificially low hour totals happening all the time, especially on cars from the 2006 to 2009 vintages that are known to have soldering problems on the odometer requiring refurbishment or replacement.

Hours are definitely in the cluster. Off the top of my head I don't remember if mileage is in the PCM or stored in the cluster.

Quote:
That said, I am one of the first to scratch my head over Ford’s methodology in tallying engine hours. I can’t understand why crown Victoria’s, even the ones that are used heavily as patrol cars, only end up with four or 5000 hours but almost every explorer interceptor I see has 10,000 or more over a shorter lifespan.

While I tend to run Carfax reports on most of the cars that I buy and for the auctions that I am interested in, those cars owned by municipalities rarely turn up any mileage records in the half dozen states that I buy from, Instead, complete fleet service records are usually available on about half of the vehicles that I chase. These records are far more comprehensive than anything produced by Carfax or even the most anal compulsive of civilian car owners.

I have never once seen a cluster replaced on a service record and never once seen in mileage discrepancy with the odometer read out at the time of purchase.

I have full service records on my 07 going back to 2011/~70k miles. It was a single officer marked patrol unit for it's entire life. It is notated in the records, along with the corresponding receipt, that the cluster was replaced in 2017 at ~142k with a cluster from the local Ford dealership, at $359.52+tax.

I cannot imagine that an ex-patrol car would be under 1000 hours at over 170k miles unless the cluster didn't carry over the hours data.
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/13/21 01:47 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch


That said, I am one of the first to scratch my head over Ford’s methodology in tallying engine hours. I can’t understand why crown Victoria’s, even the ones that are used heavily as patrol cars, only end up with four or 5000 hours but almost every explorer interceptor I see has 10,000 or more over a shorter lifespan.


And the P71s round up and add hours faster then they should be.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/13/21 04:01 PM

Originally Posted By 2007CrownVic
Originally Posted By Dmblanch


That said, I am one of the first to scratch my head over Ford’s methodology in tallying engine hours. I can’t understand why crown Victoria’s, even the ones that are used heavily as patrol cars, only end up with four or 5000 hours but almost every explorer interceptor I see has 10,000 or more over a shorter lifespan.


And the P71s round up and add hours faster then they should be.



If anything, my research on the new Explorers and Taurus interceptors indicates that the P71 methodology rounds down and counts hours too slowly compared to theirs.

Bottom line though: If engine hours don't transfer from the PCM and merely connecting a New OEM cluster starts the clock over from zero, AND p71 clusters from '06 to '09 are known to fail regularly due to bad soldering, especially around the odometer display, then we should all stop paying any attention whatsoever to the idle hour counts of our cars. It's highly unlikely that a fleet manager is going to send his clusters off to the refurb shops and wait two weeks, he's just going to buy a new cluster from Ford for instant install.

That said, I highly doubt that the three Sacramento SAP cars that I highlighted above had received new clusters (all three?). All had similar low mileage and all were velour seated SAP's with very little wear. They all appeared to be admin or detective cars to me. And based on the mileage, condition and wear alone, all would have still commanded top dollar.
Posted by: jasonp1102

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/13/21 11:42 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Originally Posted By 2007CrownVic
Originally Posted By Dmblanch


That said, I am one of the first to scratch my head over Ford’s methodology in tallying engine hours. I can’t understand why crown Victoria’s, even the ones that are used heavily as patrol cars, only end up with four or 5000 hours but almost every explorer interceptor I see has 10,000 or more over a shorter lifespan.


And the P71s round up and add hours faster then they should be.



If anything, my research on the new Explorers and Taurus interceptors indicates that the P71 methodology rounds down and counts hours too slowly compared to theirs.

Bottom line though: If engine hours don't transfer from the PCM and merely connecting a New OEM cluster starts the clock over from zero, AND p71 clusters from '06 to '09 are known to fail regularly due to bad soldering, especially around the odometer display, then we should all stop paying any attention whatsoever to the idle hour counts of our cars. It's highly unlikely that a fleet manager is going to send his clusters off to the refurb shops and wait two weeks, he's just going to buy a new cluster from Ford for instant install.

That said, I highly doubt that the three Sacramento SAP cars that I highlighted above had received new clusters (all three?). All had similar low mileage and all were velour seated SAP's with very little wear. They all appeared to be admin or detective cars to me. And based on the mileage, condition and wear alone, all would have still commanded top dollar.


Unlikely that all three Sacramento cars had new clusters, but possible. As you said, it's far more likely that a fleet manager will get a new cluster from Ford (or Dorman *shudder*) than to wait for them to be repaired. No idea how likely it was for the clusters to fail under 100k miles but it seems to be based upon age/wear/heat cycles more than anything so, who knows.

My basic point was, in a nutshell, yes, people put too much stock into idle hours, especially lower hours counts, than they should tbh. Even higher counts, people put too much stock in. Is it helpful? Yes. End-all be-all? Nah.

I could be wrong about hours not being programmable, it's just from what I've read around over the last few years about the meters. But with these cars being 10 years old at their newest, I doubt most Ford techs now would know for sure or not.
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/14/21 11:20 AM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Originally Posted By 2007CrownVic
Originally Posted By Dmblanch


That said, I am one of the first to scratch my head over Ford’s methodology in tallying engine hours. I can’t understand why crown Victoria’s, even the ones that are used heavily as patrol cars, only end up with four or 5000 hours but almost every explorer interceptor I see has 10,000 or more over a shorter lifespan.


And the P71s round up and add hours faster then they should be.



If anything, my research on the new Explorers and Taurus interceptors indicates that the P71 methodology rounds down and counts hours too slowly compared to theirs.


Not at all. When I was watching mine for maybe 10 mins max of combined idling if that I gained 4 or 5 idle hours and most others here were seeing the same thing so if new ones are getting super high idle hours either they really are being idled more or Ford made the counting worse. I'm not not paying much attention to the new Fords but the ones I've checked out I've never seen idle ours out of line compared to what Crown Vics had.

Posted by: GM_Guy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/14/21 11:34 AM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch

Perhaps I am confused in reading your posts, are you saying that you know categorically that the hour meter in a crown Victoria P71 can be turned off and on at will and that police agencies regularly do this? If so, come right out and state it and then we can all forever cease paying any attention to the hourmeters in our cars. If not,please explain how one would swap out a cluster to get a lower hourmeter total but not produce a mileage advantage?


Not saying they are intentionally turned off at all, but an in-service vic with a failed cluster will receive a new cluster, that cluster starts at zero miles, zero hours. Depending on the date the cluster was replaced, or how many times that cluster may have been replaced, the indicated mileage and hours could be misleading. Our local pd do in-house servicing, would they even bother dropping the coin on the specialized equipment needed to program cluster mileage and hours? Likely not. They have it in their internal records.

Also possible is working clusters are pulled from cars being decomishioned to be used in the remaining fleet. So hours and milage may be a lot higher on the cluster than the car actually has. I have a cluster I pulled out of a taxi, 4xx,xxx hours. The only reason the cluster made it to the yard is crown vics can't be used here any more (beyond the maximum age) but from the tape notes on the back of the cluster the car I pulled it from was the 2nd car it was in.

And when it comes to resellers of cop cars to the public, no telling what shennanigans they pull. Hence my comment about car fax histories and agencies that are not required to register their cars with the dmv yearly. I was perusing cars on a popular reseller, ran the vin through google and found the original auction listing. This car was being sold as a detective car, single color, no cage, the usual speil. Well the auction photos (vin verified in the photos) was an oreo car with light bars, antenna holes and a cage. The resller put in new rubber floor, swapped out the headliner, probably replaced the pillar trim, cloth rear seat and repainted it. Did they do a cluster swap? Maybe. This is before I started paying attention to milage readings on these things as its something I don't judge a car by anyway. But from the volume of sales and cop cars this reseller does, they probably have a warehouse of good parts to turn out the "gems" they sell.

Quote:

Does the odometer read the embedded mileage from the PCM but the hour total does not carry over when a cluster is switched? If this is the case then I can see artificially low hour totals happening all the time, especially on cars from the 2006 to 2009 vintages that are known to have soldering problems on the odometer requiring refurbishment or replacement.


Instrument cluster is the only source of mileage and hours. It is stored within the processor IC. Outside counter IC provides tick for hour increment (hence the oddball hour counting some people experience).
If you power up a cluster on the bench you will be presented with whatever the cumulative total is on that cluster.

Quote:

That said, I am one of the first to scratch my head over Ford’s methodology in tallying engine hours. I can’t understand why crown Victoria’s, even the ones that are used heavily as patrol cars, only end up with four or 5000 hours but almost every explorer interceptor I see has 10,000 or more over a shorter lifespan.


I have not looked into explorer methodology, but two things pop to mind. First I mentioned above, the way the hours increment is from an external counter chip and only if in park. I can see that on the newer cars (as complexity and chip capability increases) that any idle time counts to idle hours. Idling in gear, idling in neutral, idling in park. So if Mr Highway Patrol sits with his foot on the brake in gear waiting for the next rabbit, on a vic it wouldn't count to hours.

Quote:

While I tend to run Carfax reports on most of the cars that I buy and for the auctions that I am interested in, those cars owned by municipalities rarely turn up any mileage records in the half dozen states that I buy from, Instead, complete fleet service records are usually available on about half of the vehicles that I chase. These records are far more comprehensive than anything produced by Carfax or even the most anal compulsive of civilian car owners.


Those missing mileage records: States that do not require police fleets be recorded with the dmv (ie: florida does not issue liscense plates to cop cars, they are essentially absent from the dmv system. If the states you don't have any record for, do the police cars have some basic DARE type plate on every car? Probably exempt from yearly registration. And if they do everything in-house, theres not going to be any carfax records of anything on them.
Fleet records are the bomb if you can get them. No question at all then.

Car fax isn't great to begin with (my 89 mgm, that carfax was a mess), but barring anything else it could be used to verify mileage if the car is in the system from the beginning. That 55k mile cvpi you buy today, if the records start 20k 40k 60k, its pretty safe bet 50k isn't the actual on that car.

Quote:

I have never once seen a cluster replaced on a service record and never once seen in mileage discrepancy with the odometer read out at the time of purchase.


Thats good. Not everybody here has had cluster failures, it does happen, and unless you can verify through records, an unusually low mileage cvpi at this time would be a red flag to me.
Posted by: jasonp1102

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/14/21 01:22 PM

Originally Posted By GM_Guy
Thats good. Not everybody here has had cluster failures, it does happen, and unless you can verify through records, an unusually low mileage cvpi at this time would be a red flag to me.


This is the only statement in your post that I personally disagree with. At least in the states, it is still common to see lower mileage Vics coming out of some depts because they had so many stored away. Some depts stockpiled Vics when Ford announced the end of production.
Posted by: ChrisM_NY

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/15/21 12:22 AM

Originally Posted By GM_Guy

And when it comes to resellers of cop cars to the public, no telling what shennanigans they pull. Hence my comment about car fax histories and agencies that are not required to register their cars with the dmv yearly. I was perusing cars on a popular reseller, ran the vin through google and found the original auction listing. This car was being sold as a detective car, single color, no cage, the usual speil. Well the auction photos (vin verified in the photos) was an oreo car with light bars, antenna holes and a cage. The resller put in new rubber floor, swapped out the headliner, probably replaced the pillar trim, cloth rear seat and repainted it. Did they do a cluster swap? Maybe. This is before I started paying attention to milage readings on these things as its something I don't judge a car by anyway. But from the volume of sales and cop cars this reseller does, they probably have a warehouse of good parts to turn out the "gems" they sell.


I love googling VINs and finding our favorite resellers original turds. ALWAYS Detective/Admin cars after the fact. I remember seeing state of washington cvpis' in the mud covered in dirt, one had the window rolled down, full patrol packages, holes all over the dash. Next month it was an "Admin car" slobbed in armor all and "the department" did a bunch of "work" like replacing bunch of parts to their turd before dumping their turd, yea ok, , so its "like new conditions"

Hey now, if he puts in a new headliner, repaints, new floor, doesn't it become a detective car in his mind?
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/15/21 12:23 PM

Originally Posted By GM_Guy

Not saying they are intentionally turned off at all, but an in-service vic with a failed cluster will receive a new cluster, that cluster starts at zero miles, zero hours. Depending on the date the cluster was replaced, or how many times that cluster may have been replaced, the indicated mileage and hours could be misleading. Our local pd do in-house servicing, would they even bother dropping the coin on the specialized equipment needed to program cluster mileage and hours? Likely not. They have it in their internal records.

Also possible is working clusters are pulled from cars being decomishioned to be used in the remaining fleet. So hours and milage may be a lot higher on the cluster than the car actually has. I have a cluster I pulled out of a taxi, 4xx,xxx hours. The only reason the cluster made it to the yard is crown vics can't be used here any more (beyond the maximum age) but from the tape notes on the back of the cluster the car I pulled it from was the 2nd car it was in.

And when it comes to resellers of cop cars to the public, no telling what shennanigans they pull. Hence my comment about car fax histories and agencies that are not required to register their cars with the dmv yearly. I was perusing cars on a popular reseller, ran the vin through google and found the original auction listing. This car was being sold as a detective car, single color, no cage, the usual speil. Well the auction photos (vin verified in the photos) was an oreo car with light bars, antenna holes and a cage. The resller put in new rubber floor, swapped out the headliner, probably replaced the pillar trim, cloth rear seat and repainted it. Did they do a cluster swap? Maybe. This is before I started paying attention to milage readings on these things as its something I don't judge a car by anyway. But from the volume of sales and cop cars this reseller does, they probably have a warehouse of good parts to turn out the "gems" they sell.


Instrument cluster is the only source of mileage and hours. It is stored within the processor IC. Outside counter IC provides tick for hour increment (hence the oddball hour counting some people experience).
If you power up a cluster on the bench you will be presented with whatever the cumulative total is on that cluster.


I have not looked into explorer methodology, but two things pop to mind. First I mentioned above, the way the hours increment is from an external counter chip and only if in park. I can see that on the newer cars (as complexity and chip capability increases) that any idle time counts to idle hours. Idling in gear, idling in neutral, idling in park. So if Mr Highway Patrol sits with his foot on the brake in gear waiting for the next rabbit, on a vic it wouldn't count to hours.

Those missing mileage records: States that do not require police fleets be recorded with the dmv (ie: florida does not issue liscense plates to cop cars, they are essentially absent from the dmv system. If the states you don't have any record for, do the police cars have some basic DARE type plate on every car? Probably exempt from yearly registration. And if they do everything in-house, theres not going to be any carfax records of anything on them.
Fleet records are the bomb if you can get them. No question at all then.

Car fax isn't great to begin with (my 89 mgm, that carfax was a mess), but barring anything else it could be used to verify mileage if the car is in the system from the beginning. That 55k mile cvpi you buy today, if the records start 20k 40k 60k, its pretty safe bet 50k isn't the actual on that car.

Thats good. Not everybody here has had cluster failures, it does happen, and unless you can verify through records, an unusually low mileage cvpi at this time would be a red flag to me.


FINALLY a guy with whom I agree and whose posts tend to be more convincing that the anecdotal claims of others in this thread.

Basically what you're saying is that the miles and hours of a P71 cluster are resident in the cluster and when removed from the car, they'll still be present on the bench or transferred to the new car. Thus if a 2006-2009 car with the known failing OD light issue is replaced with new OEM cluster, that cluster will start with 0 miles, 0 hours and the tick will start from there. The operating agency will have mileage in its records, so they won't care about this discrepancy on the OD.

I simply cannot see a police agency or a fleet manager bothering to "monkey" with any idle hours readout on any new or old cluster. In my experience of buying 11 of them now, when they are done with a car and consign it to surplus THEY ARE DONE! They don't want to do one more thing and really loathe the decomissioning process, short-cutting it as much as they can to save time and money. They don't change headliners they don't gussy them up in any way shape or fashion. They barely even look at them again.

That's why I've gotten surplused p71's with five brand new goodyear eagles, installed less than 500 miles before surplus. It's why I've bought cars with entire ticket books under the seats, with entire loaded pistol clips, with fleet gas credit cards, with fingerprint kits in the trunks. There's just no way they're gonna bother to monkey with idle hour display and not clean the mcdonalds wrappers from the passenger foot well.

Several of my cars have had cluster failures and my current daily driver is an 08 that is going dim, but if you whack it it will glow back bright again. It's failure is DEFINITELY heat cycle related, its bright in the winter, dim in the summer. Knowing about the refurb services, I decided to call one of them this morning. Automotive Circuit Solutions in Mo. I talked to one of their techs. He said that MILEAGE is PROGRAMMABLE but he didn't think that hours were, and if you swap your defective cluster for one of the theirs off the shelf, they can set the mileage to whatever yours was and it will retain whatever hours is in the cluster.

Which a new cluster is bought from Ford would be ZERO. And if these techs can do it, I'm assuming that Ford can program hours as well, so it is completely possible that a fleet manager could buy a replacement cluster from Ford, have the mileage programmed to match current, and start the hours clock over from zero. So we can put that to bed.

As for the P71 counting hours too fast, I've simply never seen it, all the evidence presented in this thread argues against it, and I just don't believe it. I could go pull up a dozen screen shots with 2015-17 Explorers with super high 10,000+ engine & idle hours vs. an equal number of 06-11 p71s with under 1000, but I just don't wanna bother.

As for more cars at auction, Sacramento has just put up 3 more "Detective" P71's for auction this week. These are low mileage, extremely low hours, NON-white, velour-seated, no spotlight, low wear and tear, no visible console, SAP cars from 06-08.

There is literally no criteria by which we judge P71's that does not make these cars what we'd call a "detective car". Go see for yourself on publicsurplus. I highly, highly doubt they've had clusters replaced and that the data isn't accurate.

That said, these cars have some paint issues which will keep their prices lower. That last set of three sold auction were perfect.
Posted by: GM_Guy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/15/21 07:58 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch

Several of my cars have had cluster failures and my current daily driver is an 08 that is going dim, but if you whack it it will glow back bright again. It's failure is DEFINITELY heat cycle related, its bright in the winter, dim in the summer. Knowing about the refurb services, I decided to call one of them this morning. Automotive Circuit Solutions in Mo. I talked to one of their techs. He said that MILEAGE is PROGRAMMABLE but he didn't think that hours were, and if you swap your defective cluster for one of the theirs off the shelf, they can set the mileage to whatever yours was and it will retain whatever hours is in the cluster.


If you are comfortable with a soldering iron, resolder the cluster yourself, no big deal. Components UNDER the odometer display, the large through-hole resistors, and a close look at the connector. Just don't short anything on the board <cough>.
Sounds like a real speedo shop at least, yes you can program miles with the right tools $$$$ and software. Some other speedo shops will just provide clusters with whatever mileage they have on them if they have swap options--not the people you want to use as I question what they really test. If they can't reprogram, they probably are also not equipped to reflash cluster eeproms when one is bricked in some way.

Quote:

Which a new cluster is bought from Ford would be ZERO. And if these techs can do it, I'm assuming that Ford can program hours as well, so it is completely possible that a fleet manager could buy a replacement cluster from Ford, have the mileage programmed to match current, and start the hours clock over from zero. So we can put that to bed.


Ford won't flash your new cluster for free. If its a warranty repair, yeah, part of the warranty process. Plug in the car, pull the data from the cluster and write it to the new cluster. After warranty, bring in the car sir we'll replace the cluster and program it. Screw that, our inhouse tech can swap a cluster faster than it takes to drive the car to the dealer.

Quote:

As for the P71 counting hours too fast, I've simply never seen it, all the evidence presented in this thread argues against it, and I just don't believe it. I could go pull up a dozen screen shots with 2015-17 Explorers with super high 10,000+ engine & idle hours vs. an equal number of 06-11 p71s with under 1000, but I just don't wanna bother.


High or low, not 10k levels, but for the era. My point earlier was an Exploder or Taurus, the new clusters likely have the capabilities to more accurately log all idle hours vs the very basic means used by the panther.

Quote:

There is literally no criteria by which we judge P71's that does not make these cars what we'd call a "detective car". Go see for yourself on publicsurplus. I highly, highly doubt they've had clusters replaced and that the data isn't accurate.


I didn't say it was a given and that there are no diamonds out there. Once it gets out to the mainstream hands, thats when I cast a suspicious eye to these claims. And like I also said earlier, an upclose personal inspection of the car infront of you can help substantiate the claims or cast further doubts. Theres no absolutes here. Some departments may swap clusters with whatever they have on hand, some might buy dormans (which get programmed), most car probably do survive with their original clusters. When you got a fleet of millions out there, you see more questionable things come and go over time.
Posted by: GM_Guy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/15/21 08:01 PM

Originally Posted By jasonp1102
Originally Posted By GM_Guy
Thats good. Not everybody here has had cluster failures, it does happen, and unless you can verify through records, an unusually low mileage cvpi at this time would be a red flag to me.


This is the only statement in your post that I personally disagree with. At least in the states, it is still common to see lower mileage Vics coming out of some depts because they had so many stored away. Some depts stockpiled Vics when Ford announced the end of production.


Yeah but... ;-) they'd have stock piled 2010s or 2011's. And why would they be getting rid of them prematurely? They got a stockpile for a reason and keeping a stockpile around as long as possible is the whole point.
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/15/21 10:06 PM

Dim odometer is a pretty simple fix with a soldering iron. I had an 07 a few years ago with a cluster that would completely, entirely die intermittently. Thats when I realized you could swap clusters around and suddenly your roached patrol unit turns into a detective's take-home car. Shady stuff. Another reason why you should only buy p71s at auction.
I haven't been able to verify my current 06's mileage via the PCM yet. FORScan should be able to do that, no?
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/15/21 10:21 PM

Here's a 2004 P71 for auction in Alameda CA with Service records available. 55K miles, but somehow the idle hours are TRACKED on the service record summary, yet the 2004's had analog OD's. How is that possible? Is it possible to pull idle hours from the PCM even with these older cars?

https://publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=2822107

Clearly this ISN'T a detective's car and for its low 55k mileage (on the cluster and documented in service records), 1330 hours of patrol duty doesn't feel high or low to me.

Why would Alameda keep a 2004 around so long? Probably because it never broke on them and the officer(s) who used just kept requesting they keep it. It was fully amortized on their books in 2009.

Sometimes agencies will keep these old work horses around because they're broke and cost of replacement isn't in the budget. I just talked to a fleet manager about an hour from my house who was trying to unload two really beat up Vics (that I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole) and he told me that his county is broke and they can't afford new replacements this cycle when 3 cars should be rotated out, so he's forced to plop $4k a piece on three of his cam and lifter shot-out 2014-15 Hemi Chargers that have only 75K miles. He said he hates to do it, cause he knows he'll only get another 75K out of them and he doesn't like the cars, but they don't have $50K for replacement Tahoes or Interceptors.
Posted by: jasonp1102

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/16/21 01:24 AM

-04s do not have hour meters, I'd imagine they had some kind of aftermarket gizmo wired in if they truly kept track of the idle hours.
Posted by: Armada Master

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/16/21 10:19 AM

Over $3k on the bid right now WITH transmission issues on a 7.5% buyers fee:

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=1517&acctid=918
Posted by: Armada Master

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/16/21 10:20 AM

Originally Posted By jasonp1102
-04s do not have hour meters, I'd imagine they had some kind of aftermarket gizmo wired in if they truly kept track of the idle hours.


My dept. has aftermarket ones on any CVPI with the analog cluster.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/16/21 03:54 PM

Originally Posted By Armada Master
Over $3k on the bid right now WITH transmission issues on a 7.5% buyers fee:

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=1517&acctid=918



That's the epitome of nuttiness... far dumber than paying $5000 for a really low mileage SAP, IMO. There is NOTHING special about the cited 100K mile car and it sold for $3700 with fees included.

We should watch it to see if it comes back on the market because the winning bidder flaked out. I'm starting to see that more frequently with these cars that people bid too much on.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/16/21 06:15 PM

Here's the kind of super high idle hours readings I typically see on late model Explorerceptors.



2014 Explorer only 76,000 miles. To me this is just as head-scratching as a 55K mile Vic with only 300 idle hours.
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/16/21 07:23 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch


As for the P71 counting hours too fast, I've simply never seen it, all the evidence presented in this thread argues against it, and I just don't believe it. I could go pull up a dozen screen shots with 2015-17 Explorers with super high 10,000+ engine & idle hours vs. an equal number of 06-11 p71s with under 1000, but I just don't wanna bother.


Believe whatever you want but anyone who has owned a P71 from when they were newer and cared enough to keep track can tell you same thing I did. You just got through a big spiel about how the clusters are junk and when they are replaced the hours aren't reset. That right there is one of the two main reasons why you are seeing so many with low hours now. The other reason is because they saw administrative use or some other purpose where they didn't sit idling for hours on end like a normal patrol car. You can't base anything off the cars that are for sale now because they newest ones are 10 years old and a lot has happened in that time. Back when these cars were going through auction at the normal 4-6 year age you used to rarely saw any with under 1,000 hours on them. But you are right you also didn't see a lot with over 10,000 on them either so maybe with more computers and equipment they are being idled more or ford has made the way they count even worse.
Posted by: Armada Master

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/17/21 08:47 AM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Here's the kind of super high idle hours readings I typically see on late model Explorerceptors.



2014 Explorer only 76,000 miles. To me this is just as head-scratching as a 55K mile Vic with only 300 idle hours.


Seems about right to me.

I own an ex-fire department 2007 CVPI with 100k & low idle hours around 700. The excellent clean condition & lack of wear on the interior all but confirm this.

Most of the PD CVPI that I manage at a station with a small area to patrol have high idle hours (100k/10k). Our newer Tahoes that are replacing our CVPIs track about the same. I've never noticed any appreciable difference in the tracking of hours from the CVPIs to the Tahoes. At 150k we're usually looking at 15k idle hours or more.

I've always taken idle hours along with mileage with a grain of salt, the condition of the interior (wear on steering wheel/brake pedal/driver's seat & controls) & how clean the engine bay is (greasy, etc.) are huge indicators of overall wear as well. The high mileage/high idle hours cars cannot hide this.
Posted by: ChrisM_NY

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/17/21 10:18 AM

Oh yea looking at the overall bigger picture than the idle hours. I looked at a 2006 CVPI a few yrs ago it had advertised as ONLY 600 idle hours as soon as I clicked next picture it was a typical beat to crap patrol unit just didn't add up, for sure a dash replacement

Yea, Approx 100 hours over a a year nearly two, seems to be around what I put on mine as personal use. it here in NY, so some winter idling probably contributed a lot. Bought my SAP at approx 700hrs around 7-8yrs old with records, know about it all, it was a confirmed admin take home car, velour bench in CHARCOAL, charcoal interior, carpet, 8 way power seat with CD player, cruise control, the power and convenience package FULL SAP as it can get, no spotlight. Approx 100 hours is what Ive been seeing over the past few years of personal use. I also like to idle for a min before taking off, no matter how much anyone says it doesnt matter. Getting my [censored] together and ready for launch is usually around a minute anyways. This car came with all its factory floor mats! and had the those plastic clip on covers over frame rails of the seats! Total score, seriously you can't [censored] that good like that, their always missing those covers

You should see the cars at my local PD. They legitiamtly don't turn them off in the winter on overnight shifts. If you walk down to the PD, you'll see 2 cars idling away into the midnights hours. They retired a few taraus a few yrs ago before going to SUVs, and that sucker had 14,000 hours on it, in a city of only a few square miles where they literally can go the entire night without maybe 1 or 2 calls, very very small dead city. Traffic stops makes up the majority of their time
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/17/21 04:10 PM

There is something to be said for the theory that all of the high-use, heavy duty patrol CVPI’s have long since been auctioned off and consigned to the boneyard and now 10 years later, after they stopped making them, the only ones I see at auction are good ones that got very little usage and continued to get light duty in administrative or part-time roles in their various police departments until they finally got around to putting them on the auction block in spite of their good conditions simply because they’re more than then years old.

It’s also true that confirmation bias may be at work in my sampling of auctions. I simply don’t look at or focus on the crap boxes. I glide right over them and the only cars that stay in my watchlist are the really good ones, of which there is no shortage. I probably got 20 to 30 closing in the next two weeks and a huge numbers of them are SAP’s with under 80,000 miles. So my perception gets skewed by only looking at very cushy, carpeted, metallic-painted, velour-seated beauties with low mileage and low hours.

This skewing of the auction pool towards better cars could also be partially responsible for increasing prices of late. When the pool was full of beat to crap black and white patrol cars the average prices would naturally tend lower now and the pool is more heavily weighted with low mileage pretty silver SAP‘s, the prices will be higher.
Posted by: GM_Guy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/17/21 04:44 PM

Just for fun; The 0 hour MGM cluster I installed in the cvpi last saturday, this morning when I went to work had 1 hour on it. The interesting thing is, I have driven it 4 times since, there no way I idled 15 minutes each time especially since its warm. I do wait a minute or two before driving away howver, so some idle time is to be expected. Be interesting to track this a little more closely now that I have a known starting point on this cluster--obviously in the message center cluster, hours are not logged unless the hour meter has been enabled (which I did with forscan).


what the heck, might as well post this unicorn (over 120k on the odometer)


Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/17/21 07:15 PM

I wonder if it rounds up the minute you hit .51 of an hour?
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/18/21 12:11 PM

I've never seen that cluster with hour meter before. Cool! Does it still do the other functions or just the basic stuff that a cvpi would do?

I thought of the .5 too but the ones I watched seemed to be closer to .25 and it was with very limited idling. It's only supposed to count idle in park but maybe there's more to it like it also factors in the number of starts or counts something while it's idling in gear? That's the only thing I could come up with. Sort of like how oil life monitors do more then just count mileage.
Posted by: Old_Guy_Stu

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/18/21 03:37 PM

Not an auction, and not a P71, but I did see a local ad for an '04 MGM, one owner, 4,600 miles... for $29,900.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/18/21 05:19 PM

I’ve just discovered a category of old beater cars that is even more hyper inflated than our crown Vics — The old body on frame Chevy Astro/GMC Safari vans with all wheel drive.

Stopped making them in 2005 and they were never that will popular to begin with although the 4.3 L six is a durable engine, The hipsters will easily pay $8 - $10,000 for them in trashy shape today. that all wheel drive system wasn’t even very good.

Go figure. Hipsters and their mini camper vans.
Posted by: GM_Guy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/18/21 05:24 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
I wonder if it rounds up the minute you hit .51 of an hour?


It is a suspicion I have, over time it may all even out, but I do suspect that where you are in the minute either doesn't count to the total, or increments it quickly. If I drove the car daily I'd put a stop watch in it just for the hell of it and see.



Originally Posted By 2007CrownVic
I've never seen that cluster with hour meter before. Cool! Does it still do the other functions or just the basic stuff that a cvpi would do?


Nobody bothered enabling one before. I've suggested it but in typical mgm/ltc/cv style nobody bothered. =-) If forscan existed back in the 2000's we'd probably have seen it done before. You also need to add three wires for the switch panel. I soldered three onto the cluster, or you can add three wires to the cluster connector (I didn't, I've broken more of those connectors trying to take them apart, so we'll go with what I know) and I just cobbled together a switch panel/resistor divider for it quick). If you plan on swapping, but the red needles from the cvpi cluster on it while you got it out. So much easier to see in the daytime. Future project, along with making a nice switch panel for it unless I find a factory one in the wreckers.

Mind you, you got to do some BCD conversion of your original cluster data (only two bytes, so its not like you got a page of info to figure out) as it isn't a check box toggle. I just wrote the original cvpi cluster data minus the tpms to disable the warning lights. The mgm cluster came from a car with traction control, compass, temp sensor, that would just generate warning lights without the supporting components in the car. And tpms disable becuase I find it pointless and the car wears winter tires for half the year anyway generating an annoying randomn tpms warning based on the phase of the moon and not tire pressure.

Yes, everything is there still plus the hour meter. Trip A & B, fuel economy, timer, distance to empty. I think thats it.

Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/19/21 11:50 PM

Just checked auctions closing today, Saturday the 19th and it looks like the high price trend on generic P71's continues.

Here's a lot of FIVE very average plain white P71's out of Burlington, KY, all with 115-149K miles that sold right around $4k a piece with fees included. Stupid money. One had a bad tranny, 131k miles, and still fetched $3K.

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=418&acctid=8555

So my 2004 DT Red Sport is fixed and looks great with 111K miles and my 2008 Movie car 103K Miles with leather seats, perfect paint is also ready to go. I like them both, but I'm tempted to post them both and see if I can grab some of that stupid money at retail. Everything else in my local market is crap right now.

Meanwhile, I just bought a $500 caged and fully wired P71 with gunrack, laptop stand, working strobes and lousy paint for $500. Previous owner just put a $2 grand tranny rebuild in it for no reason that I can see. He was desperate to move PCS with the military had to unload TODAY or drop it at the crusher.

What to do with it? Part it out and crush it or find the right buyer for a project car? 141k miles, needs front bearings, AC accumulator and cosmetic TLC on every exterior panel. But if a kid with no car and some moxie spent $300 on the bearings HVAC parts, he'd have a solid runner that looked like crap as he slowly buffed her up.
Posted by: WESTCOASTP71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/22/21 08:58 AM

LOVE this thread !! LOL You gotta know where to "look" for the deals these days of HIGH used car prices and our vics being no exception .

Here in DFW, looking at FT worth PD getting rid of like 10 B/W vics going for STUPID CRAZY money !!! PASS !!

Then I Found a small peanuts auction house selling these through craigslist(no one pays attention to craigs in Dallas anymore) EVERYTHING here is FB marketplace !!

And I SCORED ALL these 4 units for under $4K after 15% seller fee in DFW area. They were used as hospital security vehicles around Texas lol smile They auction off 7 vics total and all where 2009-2011 models !!

All are black and whites !! NO RUST and have VERY good carfax dealer maintenance records !!


Prices are + 15% auction fee

Also Helps to have a certified Ford/ASE tech doing side jobs at home for about $20 a hour labor able to work on these and only a 1-2 day turnaround time. BOY DO I LOVE TEXAS !!!!!!!!


Car 1. 2011 Z5 REAR (My keeper car) hours/Miles ?? odo dead rest of cluster is fine ??. Has Carpet, pw driver seat, cruise. Final price $621. drove good around town then on highway had all misfires and CEL come on. Smelled the coolant of death. Needed intake manifold
(got a Dorman from Autozone for $300 labor included) she runs good now lol

Car 2. 2011 C6 REAR $920 has 130K miles and only 1700 idle hours. #3 Fuel injector leaking squirting fuel She's tan interior step child so it's going for resale to pay for my ENTIRE lot lol

Car 3 2011 Z5 REAR $920 160K miles,10K idle hours But she runs LIKE NEW !!! Cruise, New firestone tires ICE COLD A/C, new 2020 interstate battery, new fan shroud, Alternator, Intake manifold, GATES serp belt and they left trunk and rear license plate strobes on. I sold to my brother for $2500. Regret it cause she runs SO GOOD and A/C so cold I can see penguins chilling out in the rear seat. But little bro needs a good car to drive back to California. its a Meh thing lol

Car # 4 2010 X5 REAR, paid $910. Has 108K miles forgot the idle hours, Starter issue Got new one at autozone for $55, flat tire (new RSA in trunk) plain jane no option B/W. Also going for sale !!

Dont know about any other resellers on here but I take pride in what I sell and I do basic services when reselling

Clean out TB intake
Recharge A/C
Change fuel/air filters
New spark plugs/boots(if needed)
Change trans fluid
Change Rear diff fluid
Oil Change( have like 500 qts of oil i picked up for nothing)get MC 910 for $3 @ Autozone

Posted by: Armada Master

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/22/21 10:00 AM

Slightly off topic, slightly on topic, offtopic look at these freaking WImpala prices!:

https://www.renebates.com/a_list_2.php?id=231&cat=8

2014 Chevrolet Impala; VIN 2G1WD5E31E1153280; 71,142 Miles showing 6,950.00

2013 Chevrolet Impala; VIN 2G1WF5E3XD1191485; 94,760 Miles showing 7,200.00

2012 Chevrolet Impala; VIN 2G1WF5E34C1208151; 71,677 Miles showing 7,205.00

2011 Chevrolet Impala; VIN 2G1WF5EK8B1271226; 76,773 Miles showing 7,100.00

For ten year old WIMPALAS?!?!?

A year ago those were $3k-$3500 tops
Posted by: DudeAbides

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/22/21 12:42 PM

"On topic" rolleyes
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/23/21 01:10 PM

Can confirm about the Impala pricing in my market. Crazy, stupid prices for 2012-2015 Wimps going for as much as $9,000 at auction. Made me double-take and try to find something on the internet about what great cars they were that I'd missed before.

Still looking.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/26/21 10:33 PM

How much does a sweaty decommissioned 2010 Black and White patrol p71 go for at auction in California? At least $4k, as this one still has a week to go.

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=17&acctid=12182

35K miles, but come on... it's a black and white with no cruise.
Posted by: Old_Guy_Stu

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/27/21 07:38 AM



They couldn't even pretend to put the dash back together? I'm sure it was taken apart carefully. Not.
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 06/27/21 01:25 PM

At least that one has low mileage. Keep track of the VIN. It'll probably show up as an SAP or something with different paint and lie about why it has low miles.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/01/21 07:22 PM

I am starting to see more comebacks to the auction marketplace, such as this black p71s that sold and was not picked up in Washingtofn state. It went over 5000 the first time around and is now once again over 4000

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=18320&acctid=8445
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/02/21 01:58 AM

That 2 tone vic price is a joke its sun baked and torn apart.
Black washington SAP looks sweet though.
2913 Chevrolet Tahoe
Nice test drive of this Tahoe
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/06/21 10:32 PM

The sweaty black and white with 35k miles that we didn't much like above sold for $4800. The Washington State black car (not really an SAP) with 91k miles that we rather liked resold the second time for $6800, maintaining the inflated trend.

I just bid on two rather scruffy white 2007's with 60k-ish miles here in Southern Utah, but both went for $3300, which was over my limit so I didn't win them. Both had inop odometer readouts and bad tires but its safe to say mileage was low.

I have my white 2008 movie car with the leather seats up for sale at $5300 right now and interest seems strong. We'll see if folks follow through.

I was going to post the 2004 Red Sport for $7500 today now that the roof has been repainted, but decided to hold off until I get a full body buff and polish. Too many small sour spots which stand out next to the freshly painted panels. We'll see how she looks spiffed up.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/06/21 11:37 PM

TNT Auctions in Salt Lake just sold 6 2010 & 2011 white patrol P7B's with between 60k and 110k miles. This formerly live auction house is notorious for extremely high fees and much shill bidding, so you can tack on 15 to 20% on top of whatever price the gavel comes down on. The lowest sales price was $3600 and the highest $6700 so that would put the all in price of these very plain white patrol cars at over $4000 to just under $8000.

https://www.proxibid.com/TNT-Auction-Inc...=100&sort=0
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/14/21 11:01 PM

Well, I decided to put my money where my mouth is and test the market myself, with one of my P71's. To recap my recent history, I sold a nice silver 2004 P71 with 104 miles for $4100 in February. I was then able to buy two average white 2010 P7B SAP cars with 104 and 106k miles from the same city in March and I gussied 'em up and sold them quickly for $4200 and $4300 within a month. Each time I jack the price up more and each time they sold quickly for asking price or close to it, in a matter of days.

So this week I stuck my 2008 daily driver, a regular white sheriff's car that I bought for $1450 at auction in Idaho in early 2020, up for sale. Yes, I'd done a few upgrades to it. Put in leather seats from a wrecked Sport, added a Trunk Pack and moved over a push bar from another car, found a $200 set of Mustang alloys for it. Put some tint on it. Paint was in really good shape and it had 3.55 LSD, so it was a good car.





Sold it to the first guy who looked at it for asking price within a week. No dickering whatsoever. $5300.

Did I sell it too cheap? Looks like it. All I can say is I haven't found the ceiling yet and the floor keeps moving higher on me.

So my next step is to list the 2004 Dark Toreador Sport that I've just had polished and finished painting the unusually pockmarked roof. What's the price that I should put on it with 111k miles? I dunno, I'm thinking $7500.
Posted by: GM_Guy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/16/21 01:34 PM

$8100.
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/17/21 12:29 AM

I was after a Charger this week but bidding went higher then I wanted to pay. Same for a street appearance Taurus. I don't have much interest in them but if the price is right (cheap) It would be fun to mess with for a bit. Out of about a dozen of them only the one was worth bidding on. A couple more would have been OK but they looked like someone took a paint scraper to the decals destroying the paint in the process. Almost all the white ones had sheets of paint missing. Some things never change. ff
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/17/21 10:28 AM

I am seeing some signs that the bubble is bursting. On The auctions I follow I’m starting to see quite a few more come-backers, meaning auctions that I remember watching sell for way too much money where the winning bidder flaked out and the auction has returned to the marketplace second time. All the auction houses have tightened up their non-paying bidder rules so this means novice bidders with nothing to lose who shouldn’t be playing the game anyway who are second guessing their purchases.

Secondly, I’m starting to come close to winning bids again. On Friday I could have won two auctions and was the second-place bidder by only one dollar on an ambulance and a van that I decided to get to let go when they hit my $5000 cut off limit. There were only two of us in the action at the end of the bidding instead of four or five or six hungry sharks and when I stopped bidding the auction was over. This hasn’t happened in a long time over the past six months when I reach my cut off limit I commonly see the bids soar thousands of dollars past what I think is a good price to pay.
Posted by: GM_Guy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/18/21 08:55 AM

Its about time things start to settle down. Now the question of how quickly will it come back to reasonable levels.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/18/21 07:53 PM

My guess is pretty quickly.

I came in second again (by one dollar) on a P71 today. 2009 86k miles, good tires, good tan interior, only $76 away from me on public transport, but I let it go at $2000 flat. Only two of us bidding on the final day.

Now, all things equal, I'd have gone higher, but it was a black and white.
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/19/21 12:22 PM

Haven't been bidding or paying much attention to the auctions the past couple months. I just got my most recent P71 buy into marketable condition. Rebuilt transmission, removed police equipment and decals, fixed AC.
I want to hold onto it for a little bit but its looking like it could be more lucrative to sell ASAP.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/19/21 12:22 PM

Here's one that should test the upper limits of what P71's are commanding at auction right now.

https://publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=2843239

A 2011 Blue SAP with 76k miles and 450 idle hours, very good tan interior, no paint flaws that I can see. It's an Arizona car, as rust free as you can get. Just posted, it's already past $3k and should go to six easily with 3 days left to go.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/19/21 12:33 PM

I did some internet research prior to posting my Sport for sale and to my surprise, Sports are NOT commanding some of the extreme high prices that late model P71's are listed for. I'm seeing good Sports with lowish 100's miles back east for around $6K, whereas I see ridiculous $8K prices on a lot of P71's that have just been thoroughly washed and detailed. I'm not seeing a lot of Sports period out west.

Anyway, here's a couple of photos before I post:




Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/19/21 08:48 PM

As mentioned in another thread, I just won an auction for a rare 2007 Sport out of California for $4000 (323 made). 125k miles very good cosmetic and (supposedly) running condition.

Did I pay too much? I dunno, it's about $1500 more than I've ever paid for any other Vic, I can tell you that.

Simply no one bid on the auction, perhaps because the listing did NOT declare that it was a Sport, but if you look in the photos on the other thread you can see the sport wheels, painted trim, and floor shifter. I was the only bidder to participate on the final day of bidding, another sign that the bubble is bursting. No more feeding frenzies. If I hadn't been around to participate the other guy would have gotten it for $2475.
Posted by: Old_Guy_Stu

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/20/21 06:36 AM

I'd say $4,000 for a decent Sport is a good deal, especially if that's what roached-out vomit comets are going for.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/20/21 03:26 PM

I'm still on the fence, some moments I'm kicking myself saying I paid too much, others I say I just couldn't let the other guy take it so low. You never see 07 sports, they're always 2003,04 and 05's. I guess it will all depend on how good it looks when I pick it up and I'm driving it across Nevada home in August. There's a road trip trial by fire for you. It's been over 100 out here every day for two months.

So far I've only had scammer calls on the 04 red one that's for sale. They usually come first before the real people show interest. Code scammers, fake Carfax scammers, and out of state cashiers check scammers. Every car I've sold I've dealt with at least a half dozen of them. They are getting a little better now, they use localized prefixes on their spoofed VoIP incoming calls, to fool you into thinking they're local. But they're still easy to suss out, you just engage them in off topic text conversation, they're following a script and not really looking at your ad or reading your texts.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/20/21 03:36 PM

One thing I just noticed from my local want ads... there are 3x more Mercury Grand Marquis at LOWER prices, with LOWER miles, and in generally BETTER shape than there are Crown Vics. I think the internet hipsters aren't looking at the sister marquises when they're bargain shopping.
Posted by: GM_Guy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/20/21 05:24 PM

You got guys like Cleetus who (have ruined the market for us cheap skates) by touting the virtues of an ex cop car crown vic. Every boy racer now wants an ex cop car instead of a civic.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/20/21 05:33 PM

I think you're right. It's internet hype.
Posted by: metro21

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/21/21 01:50 AM

Regarding the gray 07 CV Sport for sale in Watsonville, CA- I saw that one too. About 3 hours from me. A few paint flaws and only a few horrible pics of it. People plain want the P71's more.
Posted by: bluejay_32

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/21/21 01:53 AM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
One thing I just noticed from my local want ads... there are 3x more Mercury Grand Marquis at LOWER prices, with LOWER miles, and in generally BETTER shape than there are Crown Vics. I think the internet hipsters aren't looking at the sister marquises when they're bargain shopping.

I'm looking for a Marquis.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/21/21 03:09 PM

Originally Posted By metro21
Regarding the gray 07 CV Sport for sale in Watsonville, CA- I saw that one too. About 3 hours from me. A few paint flaws and only a few horrible pics of it. People plain want the P71's more.


Yes, I recognize your handle as the second place bidder. I was the only one active on the final day, I guess you either didn't want to go over $4000 or couldn't tune in for closing.

Sorry, I just couldn't let you grab it for $2475, which is what would have happened had I not bid. I bid fifty dollars over, and I would have not bid again. $4100 would have taken it from me.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/21/21 03:15 PM

Originally Posted By bluejay_32
Originally Posted By Dmblanch
One thing I just noticed from my local want ads... there are 3x more Mercury Grand Marquis at LOWER prices, with LOWER miles, and in generally BETTER shape than there are Crown Vics. I think the internet hipsters aren't looking at the sister marquises when they're bargain shopping.

I'm looking for a Marquis.


Well, there's a beautiful 2011 Silver LS with parchment interior and only 50K miles close to the Salt Lake airport right now, but he wants $8,999 for it.

https://cars.ksl.com/listing/7296804
Posted by: Huhnigan

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/22/21 03:25 PM

Originally Posted By GM_Guy
You got guys like Cleetus who (have ruined the market for us cheap skates) by touting the virtues of an ex cop car crown vic. Every boy racer now wants an ex cop car instead of a civic.


I honestly think this is the main reason behind P71 prices. LXs, GMQs, even LX Sports aren't commanding the sales prices that P71s are. As people learn more about the Panther platform through their ownership of P71s, I think we will see the other models catch up a bit.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/22/21 06:47 PM

I have to say that after doing some more extensive research on LX’s, sports and GMQ’s that I had previously kind of ignored, I have to agree with the above. Ostensibly better cars are not commanding as high prices. It’s all hype around the P71 badge among the young and fueled by youtube.

I’m not seeing any activity on my listing for the red sport shown below, which I have priced more than police interceptors and I just purchased another sport paying too much for it on the faulty assumption that it was a better car than the rattier p71’s I have been buying. I’ll be able to sell it at break even or maybe a shade more if I tout the fact that it was a police chiefs car. The kids don’t care about quality, they just want a tough looking cop car.
Posted by: metro21

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/23/21 01:10 AM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Originally Posted By metro21
Regarding the gray 07 CV Sport for sale in Watsonville, CA- I saw that one too. About 3 hours from me. A few paint flaws and only a few horrible pics of it. People plain want the P71's more.


Yes, I recognize your handle as the second place bidder. I was the only one active on the final day, I guess you either didn't want to go over $4000 or couldn't tune in for closing.

Sorry, I just couldn't let you grab it for $2475, which is what would have happened had I not bid. I bid fifty dollars over, and I would have not bid again. $4100 would have taken it from me.


The photos were too few and horrible for me to have taken a chance on it sight unseen. My 7 year old could have taken better photos. Plus I'd have to get the paint flaws fixed and who knows what else. And of course those ridiculous auction fees on top of it all. I figure by the time I'd done with it with all fees, CA taxes, smog, registration and fixes done, I'd be in it at least another $1,500 for a grand total of $5,500. Well, good luck with it!
Posted by: AlleyG

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/23/21 02:12 PM

I think my wife would rather have the LX instead of the P71. In fact, having keyless entry might have kept her from wanting an SUV now.

It is a PITA if you need to grab something out of the back seat when exiting the car. You have to keep a front door open so you can lock the car.

Al
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/23/21 11:36 PM

Originally Posted By metro21
Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Originally Posted By metro21
Regarding the gray 07 CV Sport for sale in Watsonville, CA- I saw that one too. About 3 hours from me. A few paint flaws and only a few horrible pics of it. People plain want the P71's more.


Yes, I recognize your handle as the second place bidder. I was the only one active on the final day, I guess you either didn't want to go over $4000 or couldn't tune in for closing.

Sorry, I just couldn't let you grab it for $2475, which is what would have happened had I not bid. I bid fifty dollars over, and I would have not bid again. $4100 would have taken it from me.


The photos were too few and horrible for me to have taken a chance on it sight unseen. My 7 year old could have taken better photos. Plus I'd have to get the paint flaws fixed and who knows what else. And of course those ridiculous auction fees on top of it all. I figure by the time I'd done with it with all fees, CA taxes, smog, registration and fixes done, I'd be in it at least another $1,500 for a grand total of $5,500. Well, good luck with it!


Yeah the photos were few... which is par for municipal internet auction course but the only paint "defects" visible were a few road chips around the grill, no dents or scrapes anywhere else. You'll find those on any Vic of that vintage. And with more photos, more folks probably would have figured out it was a sport. I'll post some photos here when I get it to see how much lipstick was on the pig.

And any PublicSurplus or Govdeals auction fee is going to be 10%, much better than the live lot fees which go from 13%-20%. I'm in it $4,475 right now with fees, another $200 to fly out and pick it up, Utah smog is $25, Utah title $ registration is $75, tax will put me in at just under $5k.

However, I now agree, that's too much for a Sport, which appear to be selling for LESS than P71's. I shoulda stopped and let you have it at $3999.
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/24/21 12:35 AM

It's on the high side of good for a sport. And if it came from a department that kept up wiht maintenance properly that's a big bonus over one that could have been neglected and passed through several owners in the last 10 years.
Posted by: GM_Guy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/24/21 07:55 AM

AlleyG, if its a 2008+ you can add keyless using forscan and buying the corresponding remotes from amazon or ebay.
Posted by: metro21

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/24/21 06:47 PM

There also appeared to be rear bumper damage as well.

You should have let me have it for $2500 but you just couldn't do it and now you're stuck with it. There are two sayings in life that I agree with wholeheartedly:

Be careful what you ask for because you might just get it &
Sometimes not getting something is actually blessing in disguise.

You can think about those on your 12 hour drive back home bow
Posted by: Huhnigan

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/26/21 02:17 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
I have to say that after doing some more extensive research on LX’s, sports and GMQ’s that I had previously kind of ignored, I have to agree with the above. Ostensibly better cars are not commanding as high prices. It’s all hype around the P71 badge among the young and fueled by youtube.

I’m not seeing any activity on my listing for the red sport shown below, which I have priced more than police interceptors and I just purchased another sport paying too much for it on the faulty assumption that it was a better car than the rattier p71’s I have been buying. I’ll be able to sell it at break even or maybe a shade more if I tout the fact that it was a police chiefs car. The kids don’t care about quality, they just want a tough looking cop car.


I think as the youtube-fueled crowd realizes that even "grandpa cars" like GMQs are only a few bolt-on parts away from being a P71 then we'll see a pivot. Especially since they're significantly cheaper right now. Most of these channels are using them mainly for the platform. They're not keeping the original drivetrain anyways.
Posted by: bluejay_32

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/26/21 03:14 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Originally Posted By bluejay_32
Originally Posted By Dmblanch
One thing I just noticed from my local want ads... there are 3x more Mercury Grand Marquis at LOWER prices, with LOWER miles, and in generally BETTER shape than there are Crown Vics. I think the internet hipsters aren't looking at the sister marquises when they're bargain shopping.

I'm looking for a Marquis.


Well, there's a beautiful 2011 Silver LS with parchment interior and only 50K miles close to the Salt Lake airport right now, but he wants $8,999 for it.

https://cars.ksl.com/listing/7296804

Kinda surprised that one's still there, and reduced $500.

Tempting.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/26/21 05:43 PM

Originally Posted By metro21
There also appeared to be rear bumper damage as well.

You should have let me have it for $2500 but you just couldn't do it and now you're stuck with it. There are two sayings in life that I agree with wholeheartedly:

Be careful what you ask for because you might just get it &
Sometimes not getting something is actually blessing in disguise.

You can think about those on your 12 hour drive back home bow


Ah so you've decided to go all schadenfreude on me, eh? Well, homey can play that game too. Especially on all future crown vic auctions in CA where I see your name come up.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/26/21 05:46 PM

Originally Posted By bluejay_32
Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Originally Posted By bluejay_32
Originally Posted By Dmblanch
One thing I just noticed from my local want ads... there are 3x more Mercury Grand Marquis at LOWER prices, with LOWER miles, and in generally BETTER shape than there are Crown Vics. I think the internet hipsters aren't looking at the sister marquises when they're bargain shopping.

I'm looking for a Marquis.


Well, there's a beautiful 2011 Silver LS with parchment interior and only 50K miles close to the Salt Lake airport right now, but he wants $8,999 for it.

https://cars.ksl.com/listing/7296804

Kinda surprised that one's still there, and reduced $500.

Tempting.


It's a beauty, but it's still overpriced. MGM's aren't commanding near that price out here. Needs to be $6500 to $7k before its good.

If you think you're sorta serious, I could go take a look for you.
Posted by: metro21

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/27/21 03:37 AM

That's rather childish of you. I don't do this as often and for substantial part time income like you seem to do. I just do it for fun on the side if the pricing is right. I also only use fixed prices and stick to them as you saw- so you win, you can fly/ drive here and have it. Best bonus: I have the closeness advantage which adds several hundred dollars to any bid of mine over yours. That long boring drive on I-80 through NV....
Posted by: AlleyG

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/27/21 01:05 PM

Originally Posted By Huhnigan


I think as the youtube-fueled crowd realizes that even "grandpa cars" like GMQs are only a few bolt-on parts away from being a P71 then we'll see a pivot.


Dual exhaust, larger zip tube, more HP, no resonators, higher speed limiter, 3.27 VS 2.73 gears, calibrated speedo, two auxillary coolers, higher output alternator, stiffer suspension, 16x8 cop wheels, bullet resistant glass and front doors, I can go on and on.

That's far more than a few bolt ons, and a lot of work, and nothing about a GMQ will ever look like a CVPI.

Al
Posted by: Huhnigan

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/27/21 02:05 PM

Originally Posted By AlleyG
Originally Posted By Huhnigan


I think as the youtube-fueled crowd realizes that even "grandpa cars" like GMQs are only a few bolt-on parts away from being a P71 then we'll see a pivot.


Dual exhaust, larger zip tube, more HP, no resonators, higher speed limiter, 3.27 VS 2.73 gears, calibrated speedo, two auxillary coolers, higher output alternator, stiffer suspension, 16x8 cop wheels, bullet resistant glass and front doors, I can go on and on.

That's far more than a few bolt ons, and a lot of work, and nothing about a GMQ will ever look like a CVPI.

Al


Give it time. Soon 1000HP GMQs will be getting 500,000 views on YouTube.
Posted by: GM_Guy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/27/21 04:35 PM

bullet resistant glass & doors... that part of your Rudy package? =-)

Those items where optional, $1500 per front door for the balistic shield.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/28/21 02:48 AM

Originally Posted By metro21
That's rather childish of you. I don't do this as often and for substantial part time income like you seem to do. I just do it for fun on the side if the pricing is right. I also only use fixed prices and stick to them as you saw- so you win, you can fly/ drive here and have it. Best bonus: I have the closeness advantage which adds several hundred dollars to any bid of mine over yours. That long boring drive on I-80 through NV....


Ah, so now I'm getting lessons on childish behavior... from the man who made a point to pout sour grapes.

You'll note that:
a) I didn't know I was bidding against you while I was bidding so I couldn't have done you any crownvic.net brother courtesy, and
b) I acknowledged that I'd gone too high when I bid $4050, topping your $4000 bid, and
c) I remained perfectly civil until you went snarky.

Here's the deal... I don't have to win these auctions, I could have stopped at $3999 and let you win at $4000, but because of your flawed bid-early-and-to-your-personal-max-which-is-an-even-number bidding system, I was able to find your bid, top it, and win.

I can do it again only this time, I won't win.

I will just bid you up to your max and stop, insuring you pay top dollar all the time.

There ain't that many Crown Vic auctions in Northern California on Public Surplus. I can watch them all.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/28/21 02:54 AM

Originally Posted By GM_Guy
bullet resistant glass & doors... that part of your Rudy package? =-)

Those items where optional, $1500 per front door for the balistic shield.


I've never owned or even seen a P71 that had them. Heck, I've only ever bought one that came with the Kevlar trunk pack.
Posted by: AlleyG

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/28/21 01:44 PM

I guess you'd have to pull the interior panel to know whether the doors are bullet resistant or not? And the glass, would it even look any different? What good is a cop car if it doesn't have any of that sh#t?

What about the stab plates in the seats - is that also an option that no one ordered? Coincidently, both of our seat back fabrics were unclipped at the bottom. I always assumed it was from them removing the plates. Who knows.

Ours does have the clear polycarbonate storage bins in the trunk, they are pretty cool.

Al
Posted by: bluejay_32

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/28/21 04:30 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Originally Posted By bluejay_32
Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Well, there's a beautiful 2011 Silver LS with parchment interior and only 50K miles close to the Salt Lake airport right now, but he wants $8,999 for it.

https://cars.ksl.com/listing/7296804

Kinda surprised that one's still there, and reduced $500.

Tempting.


It's a beauty, but it's still overpriced. MGM's aren't commanding near that price out here. Needs to be $6500 to $7k before its good.

If you think you're sorta serious, I could go take a look for you.

If it drops any lower than 8, definitely, but I'd still have to ship it home.
Posted by: GM_Guy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/28/21 05:30 PM

Originally Posted By AlleyG

What about the stab plates in the seats - is that also an option that no one ordered? Coincidently, both of our seat back fabrics were unclipped at the bottom. I always assumed it was from them removing the plates. Who knows.


from some other thread here;
98-02 the seats had a metal plate that was welded to the upper seat back frame and was under the upholstered seat cover.

03-11 bucket seats with police cloth used the plastic anti-stab plates that went under the upholstered cover and can be seen by unzipping the cover over the back.

03-05 p71 with the velour split bench seats used the hard covers that went over the outside of the seat cover and was considered the anti-stab plate even though I think when optioned with velour split bench seats anti-stab plated were not listed as included.

06-11 p71 with split bench velour seats went to using the plastic anti-stab plates that went under the upholstery like the police cloth buckets were from 03-11 and the backs were the same velour fabric no hard covers.

Leather seats had 2 varieties of covers as well, 03-05 used a hard cover with the seat back pouch attached to it and then in 06-11 the covers were all leather in the back with the hard plastic plates underneath.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/29/21 10:00 PM

Pursuant to the little mini-thread a few pages back where I encouraged Adam that now would be a good time to sell his POTM P71 and I said I was going to cash out before the bubble burst, I wanted to update the topic and report that I have indeed, cashed out. This is what I got:

2008 Plain White P71 - 103k miles, 3k idle hours, very good condition, tint, snow tires, quite a few little extras included, I got $5300 for it. It was the most expensive Vic in my state at the time. Took only a couple of days to sell, to an 18 year old kid who was sick of his Mustang. I purchased it at auction for only $1450 in 2019 and I probably put about a grand-$1200 in repairs and upgrades into it over time. So I probably made about $2500 to $2700, driving it about 12000 miles over two years.

2004 Dark Toreador Red LS Sport - 111k miles, this is the one with the roof rot that we discussed in other threads. Paid $2500 for it, put $1500 in paint and tint and ding repair in it, plus a new battery, registration and tax. So I was in it about $4200. Sold it for $7000 flat, took two weeks to sell, only got three serious calls and only one guy looked at it. An adult Merchant Marine guy who wanted a highway cruiser to drive back and forth to Boston with.

Are these prices too low, too high? I dunno... they are what they are, but I can damn sure say that they are a couple of G's more than what I would have sold them for in 2019 or 2020.

If that gives anyone else a benchmark to work off of, I'm happy.

After selling the 2004 red sport for $7k, I'm a little more hopeful that I won't be over-under on the 2007 gray sport that I just bought for $4k. We'll see.
Posted by: Old_Guy_Stu

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/30/21 08:39 AM

It's a bubble. Great time to sell, lousy time to buy. Once it bursts, I think your new Sport will probably be close to market value, but who knows? If this chip shortage continues, we could be looking at $20,000 Panthers next year.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/30/21 10:24 AM

I agree it is a bubble, that’s why my intention is to turn the gray sport around and flip it as well in August and still beat the burst. I think I got lucky selling the red one for seven because I did not have buyers beating down my door. I had one guy who listened to my pitch.

I’m not gonna buy any more lx’s or sports in this climate because the youth crowd who are influenced by youtube are totally focused on p71’s.

now that we are 10 years removed from the last panther rolling off the assembly line, I figure we’ve got about five more years Max where these cars are still relevant to a mass market before they become relegated to curios on the collector heap of a few aficionados. Maybe less. Right now we have the Internet faddish bubble combined with used car chip shortage bubble that has pumped up their values a couple of grand beyond what should be normal.

I remember the last time in about 2005 when I saw a bubble in Southern CA new home real estate and cashed out and sold all my properties early and counseled all my friends to get out before the bubble burst. I got out and of course I didn’t read the maximum profits that I could have if I had held on and sold in 2006 and 2007 but I also didn’t lose everything in the 2008 crash white all of my other real estate buddies did. I got laughed at as a scaredy-cat for about two years, until everyone else lost their shorts with domino foreclosures.

I’ll tell you what’s looking better to me as a simple daily driver… a plain grandpa Mercury Grand Marquis, whose prices are not inflated in my market.
Posted by: a_d_a_m

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/30/21 12:11 PM

Originally Posted By Old_Guy_Stu
It's a bubble. Great time to sell, lousy time to buy.
...which is precisely why I opted to keep the POTM 2010 P7B - couldn't find anything that was seriously for sale where both the condition and price were good enough to justify such a decision.

As a side note, as a mod, I appreciate the civil snarkiness between metro21 and Dmblanch, and have no objection to the discourse thus far.
Posted by: av8or1

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/30/21 09:06 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
After selling the 2004 red sport for $7k, I'm a little more hopeful that I won't be over-under on the 2007 gray sport that I just bought for $4k. We'll see.

I'd be interested to see pictures of the 2007 LX Sport when you have the opportunity to post them.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/30/21 10:15 PM

The pics in the auction were not the best as Metro21 mentioned and it had no good pics of the interior. I posted pics of the back in one thread to show the aftermarket radio mast that resembled a 2005.

I pick it up on Tuesday, I'll post some when I bring it home. Right now it's very much a pig in a poke that I gambled on.
Posted by: av8or1

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/30/21 10:23 PM

Alright. I'll be interested to see the pictures, learn what you decide to do with it, see the progress and the final result, which I presume will be its sale.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/30/21 10:39 PM

I'm undecided right now and condition will probably be the determinant. It has 125k miles (unknown hours) which is moving it out of flip territory and into "you better keep it" territory. Higher mileage Vics just don't do well at resale. But 125k miles is perfectly fine on a keeper Sport, I think. But if I keep it, it will always bug me that I paid too much for it. I like driving the ones that I got for a song, but then I sell 'em when the right offer comes along.

There's one guy in town, a buddy of mine, who is still driving my 2005 Firechief's SAP with perfect paint and 54K that I got for only $2000 and sold to him for $4400 two years ago. Bugs the CRAP out of me that I sold it to him at all, let alone for so little. That's a $7K car right now.

The 2007 is dark grey which I prefer as a color option. I like silver and grey, indifferent to white, don't like black, really didn't much like the dark toreador red you see in my sig because it revealed EVERY imperfection, even after clay bar and polish.

I will say that I very much liked the tinted taillights which I tinted to the exact color of the car, they blended in perfectly. With heavily tinted windows and front lights, it got a lot of looks and compliments, but I found myself getting anal about the paint flaws, which I do with black cars and tend not to do with silver or white or Arizona beige cars.

The 2007 was a fleet maintained, take-home police chief's car its whole life, 14 years in one town so I'm hoping for low driver's seat wear. If not, I'll re-upholster, something I did once before.

But who am I kidding... I always sell them. 11 of the 13 Vics I've owned got sold. I love my vics and I'm already feeling the void in my driveway because I have a 2005 that is getting painted and 2007 Sport that I haven't picked up yet. But I love them with mild love, right offer comes along and I always sell. Since I don't lose money on them, I get 'em, fix 'em, put a couple of thousand miles on them, driveway gets full, and sell the best, most ready ones off, knowing I can always get more.

Strange to say, but I just don't have emotional attachments to cars any more. I did in my youth, but my one and only Ferrari cured me of that sickness pronto.
Posted by: av8or1

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/30/21 10:50 PM

What color is the interior? I've only seen one 2007 Sport, which technically was an LX with the "LX Premium Sport Handling and Performance Package", and the original window sticker did indeed have the longer, modified title, sans "Sport" or "SPT". Anyway the point being that a 2007 or 2008 LX Sport is a rare animal. I'd be tempted to hold onto it also.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/30/21 11:58 PM

You are completely correct. As I researched it on the final day and saw that only 380 something were made in 2007, even less in 2008, I thought "Hooo, it's rarer than my 2004 but has 15K more miles". I had to make a decision.

Here's 5 shots, indicating what I had to go on. It has the medium light stone KL interior. Which again, I prefer. Good colors in and out.

So I thought, it's a Sport with very little data although they say is in good condition inside and out and it was running until the auction, registered through 2022. Then I noticed that no one was bidding on the final day, in the final minutes. It was just me and one other guy who didn't appear to be present, who had placed his high final bid some two days before. Sadly, he turned out to be Metro21, but I didn't know that at the time.

Anyway, I after I sussed out his top bid of $4000, I had to decide if I wanted to take it for $4050 or not. I hit the button.

Judge for yourself if the "damage" you see is worth the extra $50 or not.







If you're paying attention to the door code, you'll note that the exterior color listed on the sticker as P2 "Driftwood Beige", a 2007 color, but that's a metallic gold and the car sure as shootin' ain't metallic gold. The car is clearly T8 Tungsten Grey, a 2006 color, and the car was made in 10/06.

Once again, we learn you can't trust Ford door codes. My buddy who also has a 2004 Red Sport says his door sticker says he has a Z5 open differential but his pumpkin plate says LSD. So, we'll see when I get it.

Posted by: av8or1

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/31/21 02:44 AM

Good pictures. More. laugh Interesting find though. I can understand why you are in a bit of a dilemma. It would need a slight amount of exterior work, depending on how particular you are about that sort of stuff. Not a lot however; no real body damage. Overall that is one clean Panther. All to-the-good.

From what I have read, Ford paint code P2 = "Driftwood Gray", thus:

2007 Ford Crown Victoria Driftwood Gray P2 C M7164 912607 75768

Indeed "Driftwood Gray" kinda intuitively matches the exterior color I see in those pictures, somehow. A manufacture date of 10/06 would put it in the 2007 model year. So the year and paint code would appear to match on first blush. But hey, not my Panther, just sayin'.

Axles. Well, the Sport was supposed to come with the Z5, which is a 3.27 open diff. However you just never know what someone may have swapped in there. Hell, Ol' Blue had a C8 2.73 open in it when it found us for its next home. After looking at it, I would presume that the rear end I found on it came from a GMQ, likely from a salvage yard. Thus the mileage is off, though it would technically have fewer miles than shown on the odometer due to the downshift in ratio. I digress. It'll be interesting to see what yours has, though if it actually had the reported history, it'll likely be the Z5.

Anyway. I'm interested to see your progress with it!
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/31/21 01:03 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch

Once again, we learn you can't trust Ford door codes. My buddy who also has a 2004 Red Sport says his door sticker says he has a Z5 open differential but his pumpkin plate says LSD. So, we'll see when I get it.


That sport looks pretty clean in the pictures nothing too glaring to me. I noticed the door tag also and I'm left questioning what is sporty about an open differential...
I never been lied to by the axle code on vic door tag. If it's incorrect someone must have been meddling.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/31/21 03:40 PM

Well I’ve now looked at about a half a dozen different Internet sources for color code P2 some of them call it driftwood beige others call it driftwood gray. The color swatches associated with those various sources range in tonality from shiny gold metal to something that looks like the common Arizona beige to something that is a dark tan, to something that is a light gray to something that is a darker gray.

What is it really? I don’t know but I will say that the swatches that resembled the darker gray could very well be what we see in the photos. I don’t see any brown or gold component in those photos.

Personally I consider the paint damage to be minimal. Touch up paint on the front grill flecks, see if the water stain comes out with Claybar and buffing on the back bumper, If not it’s a paint match on the top surface of the bumper that can Stop at the natural groove of the bumper channel, you’ll never notice the transition.

i was told that all sports were open diffs, then somebody told me they could be special ordered with LSD’s. I don’t know what the real answer is.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/31/21 08:47 PM

....But the official Ford color swatch for P2 in 2007 is called "Driftwood Gray" not beige, and it looks EXACTLY like what I see in the photos.



So that settles that.

On a sadder note, I just found out that the Kid to whom I sold my cosmetically perfect 2008 P71 with the Sport leather seats and Mustang wheels a mere two weeks ago... has already wrecked it. Stupid kids.

Oh well, maybe I can buy those parts back again cheap.
Posted by: av8or1

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 07/31/21 11:57 PM

Yes, all LX Sports had the Z5 3.27 open differentials. Anything can be special ordered on any car (mostly), so sure, the Sport could have been ordered with the X5 or whatever else the buyer wanted.

So a kid wrecked a P71 in only two weeks? Egad. 'Wonder what I'll have in store for me when our lil 'un begins driving. Shudder. laugh
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/01/21 04:23 PM

Originally Posted By bluejay_32
Originally Posted By Dmblanch


It's a beauty, but it's still overpriced. MGM's aren't commanding near that price out here. Needs to be $6500 to $7k before its good.

If you think you're sorta serious, I could go take a look for you.

If it drops any lower than 8, definitely, but I'd still have to ship it home.


Here's a 2010 MGM in Salt Lake that looks even better for less money.

https://cars.ksl.com/listing/7347275
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/01/21 04:25 PM

Originally Posted By av8or1
Yes, all LX Sports had the Z5 3.27 open differentials. Anything can be special ordered on any car (mostly), so sure, the Sport could have been ordered with the X5 or whatever else the buyer wanted.

So a kid wrecked a P71 in only two weeks? Egad. 'Wonder what I'll have in store for me when our lil 'un begins driving. Shudder. laugh


And the guy who bought my Red Sport (seen in my signature) has already hit a deer with it, bashing in a front quarter panel.

Two sold in less than two weeks and two ruined in the same amount of time.
Posted by: bluejay_32

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/01/21 06:55 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Originally Posted By bluejay_32
Originally Posted By Dmblanch


It's a beauty, but it's still overpriced. MGM's aren't commanding near that price out here. Needs to be $6500 to $7k before its good.

If you think you're sorta serious, I could go take a look for you.

If it drops any lower than 8, definitely, but I'd still have to ship it home.


Here's a 2010 MGM in Salt Lake that looks even better for less money.

https://cars.ksl.com/listing/7347275

I would be interested in that.

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Originally Posted By av8or1
Yes, all LX Sports had the Z5 3.27 open differentials. Anything can be special ordered on any car (mostly), so sure, the Sport could have been ordered with the X5 or whatever else the buyer wanted.

So a kid wrecked a P71 in only two weeks? Egad. 'Wonder what I'll have in store for me when our lil 'un begins driving. Shudder. laugh


And the guy who bought my Red Sport (seen in my signature) has already hit a deer with it, bashing in a front quarter panel.

Two sold in less than two weeks and two ruined in the same amount of time.

The one you fixed the roof on?
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/01/21 11:05 PM

Yep, that's the one.

I ground down all the pimples myself, attempted to prime myself with a new kind of 2K epoxy primer in a can-within-a-can system, found that it was crap, stripped it again, took it to the pros and had them shoot it. Came out looking good as you can see in the photos. Then I claybarred the rest and polished it, but still didn't really like the paint, so kept it in the garage, sold it on Tuesday.

New Buyer hits a deer with it on Saturday night.

The 2008 was my white P71 movie car. I sold it two weeks ago to a kid with an already-booked appointment for a movie shoot today. I turned the appointment over to the kid (there's a quick $100 for you buddy) when I sold it and I heard from the movie transpo coordinator last night that they couldn't use it because the kid had side-swiped it. They had to get another car.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/01/21 11:10 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Originally Posted By bluejay_32
Originally Posted By Dmblanch


It's a beauty, but it's still overpriced. MGM's aren't commanding near that price out here. Needs to be $6500 to $7k before its good.

If you think you're sorta serious, I could go take a look for you.

If it drops any lower than 8, definitely, but I'd still have to ship it home.


Here's a 2010 MGM in Salt Lake that looks even better for less money.

https://cars.ksl.com/listing/7347275


Did you catch how the seller says "you could drive this to New York with zero worries..."?

Looks like a sign to me. I think this is probably a better car than the other. The tires on the stock wheels look brand new.
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/01/21 11:11 PM

Sucks when a clean vic gets smashed.
Some people can't handle these big rwd cars with no driver aids.
Posted by: av8or1

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/01/21 11:54 PM

Ever run across Panthers that would better serve as parts cars than actual/potential drivers?
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/02/21 02:40 PM

All the time. My car no. 12 was a junker P71 I bought for $500, stripped off what I thought was useful, including the wheels and sold to the recycler for $275. But I like to keep my driveway and garage relatively uncluttered so I get rid of them fast.
Posted by: GM_Guy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/02/21 03:59 PM

The new one looks good. I want the instrument cluster out of it. =-)
Posted by: bluejay_32

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/03/21 12:39 AM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Did you catch how the seller says "you could drive this to New York with zero worries..."?

Looks like a sign to me. I think this is probably a better car than the other. The tires on the stock wheels look brand new.

Sent you a PM.
Posted by: bluejay_32

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/04/21 09:20 AM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Originally Posted By bluejay_32
Originally Posted By Dmblanch


It's a beauty, but it's still overpriced. MGM's aren't commanding near that price out here. Needs to be $6500 to $7k before its good.

If you think you're sorta serious, I could go take a look for you.

If it drops any lower than 8, definitely, but I'd still have to ship it home.


Here's a 2010 MGM in Salt Lake that looks even better for less money.

https://cars.ksl.com/listing/7347275

That one's gone, but the other one's still there. That blue '03 in Wyoming looks tempting, too, but $6500 seems too high for that. That's 80 miles from Salt Lake.
https://cars.ksl.com/listing/7349275
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/04/21 05:36 PM

Makes me wonder if he sold it to Carvana for $7200 like he threatened. Either way that's setting the price in this market for a really good car with low mileage. If I got $7000 for a 2004 Sport with 111k miles, those should be higher, no?

Yes, the Evanston car looks babied as well and with the carport, it probably didn't get damage from the harsh winters. Evanston is very much in our backyard and I'd consider it my home turf if I wanted to fetch a car from there. Heck I just got back from San Jose to fetch a car. $6500 for 41,000 miles? I dunno, I'd say they're probably fishing with bait that is fairly close to market.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/04/21 06:08 PM

Some signs that the bubble may be full:

A really rather good silver 2006 SAP, no dings, good paint with 102K miles and 300h just closed in Sacramento for $3200 with only tepid final minute bidding.



Other than wrong-color front seats (but still good quality front seats), I couldn't see any serious flaws.

Seems to me a few weeks back that would have hit 4k at least.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/04/21 06:33 PM

I've just returned from driving the 2007 Sport home, quite a pleasant 800 mile ride in an air-shock panther, I must say. Mechanically it's in real good shape, suspension, engine, brakes, electrical all in good working order.

Curiosities: The odd right rear fender antenna is for a police radio, which was disconnected. 3 of the four radio speakers were disconnected as is common in patrol cars. Tag on the key said "Undercover Unit", there are strobes still in the corners, but I see no strobe controller in the trunk and the little dash piece below the HVAC and above the center console is gone where they mounted their police radio and strobe controller. I'll have to fill that hole. There is a big old electronic air filter thingy unit of some sort mounted to the undershelf of rear trunk in the left hand where police electronics usually go. What is that? It wasn't in the 2004

Bad news: My blend door actuator seems stuck, must take a look, the ceiling center compass is off but I never used it in the other one who cares. The discoloration on the rear bumper fascia is paint loss and will require a couple of hundred dollars in paint shop time on only the rear bumper fascia.

Good Surprises: Very nice Goodyear RSA cop tires installed, that fancy Mercury-Lincoln trunk pack was in the trunk. Full sized spare in the trunk.Interior is decent, no leather rips only creases and soiling that tlc will take care of. Carpet very good. Newer optima battery. I got all service records and original window sticker.

About the color The exterior color is called Drifstone GRAY on the window sticker but it is decidedly bronze in perceived color. In some lights it has brownish bronze hues in it others it'll look a bit more gray. But more Bronze than gray.

The interior color "Medium light stone" is a MGM color and is really more of a taupe, a darker tan than it is gray. It combines with some interior dash and console pieces which are darker bronze color to give the thing a two tone look. But there's nothing really grayish about the interior at all in real life. It's a darker tan while still being complementary to bronze of the exterior. Since the sport doors are very plain and this is an MGM color, I'm thinking an MGM door panel swap might be nice.

Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/05/21 02:23 PM

I may have spoken too early about the Sacramento car being indicative of falling prices. It may have just been a good-ish deal.

State of California in Davis (a stone's throw from Sacramento) is auctioning 3 2007-08 vics, two are velour seated SAP's with 85 and 103K miles and one's a P74 with 132. All are in pretty good shape. The SAP's are going to go over 4K for sure and the P74 will probably top 3K.

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=769&acctid=19132
Posted by: Peachpicker

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/05/21 02:39 PM

You know, seeing all of these prices is giving me real serious consideration to listing the Sport. It's getting real tempting.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/05/21 09:58 PM

Correction to the above... my window sticker for the 2007 says "Driftstone BEIGE" as the exterior color, not Gray. Other Ford literature calls it Driftstone Gray. Regardless, it isn't anything close to beige.



The interior, called "medium light stone" is very much dark tan or beige
Posted by: Armada Master

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/06/21 09:45 AM

Originally Posted By av8or1
Yes, all LX Sports had the Z5 3.27 open differentials. Anything can be special ordered on any car (mostly), so sure, the Sport could have been ordered with the X5 or whatever else the buyer wanted.

So a kid wrecked a P71 in only two weeks? Egad. 'Wonder what I'll have in store for me when our lil 'un begins driving. Shudder. laugh


My oldest wrecked my 1997 CVLX I gifted him for a graduation present a week after he got his license, see attached...
Posted by: AlleyG

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/06/21 09:49 AM

Damn, those Sports are loaded! And cost more new than I thought.

Also, from that one pic, the Sacramento car is no gem. Those cars appear to be covered with some kind of dirt and the headlights are horribly yellow. I see spots on the hood. I can understand the tepid bidding.

Al
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/06/21 01:02 PM

Yes they are covered in dirt, that’s what car washes are for. You can expect nothing else from an auction lot operated by the state of California. they’re not even gonna bother to wash or clean the cars before they are posted for sale.

And I am not sure that I would call the bidder response tepid either. Both SAP’s sold for more than $4000 fees included and the LX with 130,000 miles sold for about $3400. Not super high, but not low either
Posted by: AlleyG

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/06/21 02:25 PM

I was referring to your post 7 posts ago where you mention the dirty car with yellow headlights sold for $3200 with tepid bidding.

Al
Posted by: JOliver

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/12/21 03:15 AM

We have 4 I'm going to list in the next few weeks,going to clean them up first
Any tips for listing them ? I'll try and answer as many questions and get good pictures
I have listed some before over the years and I'm always surprised at some of the questions you get, it's almost even if you try and cover everything someone will find something to ask about.
One or two of the Vics are tired but there is one car in there that would make someone a great car
Posted by: jasonp1102

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/12/21 03:17 AM

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=310&acctid=9836

Check this one out, out of Santa Clara.

41k miles but has some minor grille/header/hood damage, dunno if it was involved in an accident or what.

Sitting at SEVENTY SIX HUNDRED. With a week to go.
Posted by: a_d_a_m

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/12/21 03:35 AM

Originally Posted By jasonp1102
Sitting at SEVENTY SIX HUNDRED. With a week to go.
That is insane money for that car.
Posted by: jasonp1102

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/12/21 03:47 AM

At this point I'm checked out of the game for awhile. My 07 just hit 172k (bought at 156k) and it will probably hit 200k with no major issues besides now needing sway-bar end-links and bushings (it needed tie-rod ends over the winter as well.)

I may not get another one after this just due to supply / price point unless this bubble bursts in the next year or so, although MGMs seem to be far cheaper in this market in the areas I've been looking. I prefer the P71 ride, gearing, etc, though.
Posted by: JeffBoudah

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/12/21 11:00 AM

I've just been looking for frames or a rolling chassis. Dudes want $400+ just for the alum. cross members now.
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/12/21 02:40 PM

I have a white 06 former-vomit-comet that I'm listing for sale today. Clean title, 120k miles, straight body, minimal paint peel and rust. Interior is in decent shape. Not perfect but a very solid running car.
I think I'm going to list it for around $5k. I have to sell it in 8 days so I don't think I have time mess around fishing with a higher price.
Posted by: AlleyG

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/12/21 04:22 PM

I'll throw this out there for anyone trying to rebuild an old CVPI, or for parts recyclers: our white '04 CVPI got hit from behind in the trunk area a few days ago. Depending on what happens with the insurance, the car may be coming up for sale either whole or as parts (prefer the former since it's such a nice car).

The car is drivable (after resetting the fuel pump switch). Actually drove it on a 250 mile trip as this happened on the way to the beach. These cars are tough!

I am not sure if the car is fixable, at least thru insurance. I may get an estimate from an independent body guy I've worked with to get his opinion. He charges 1/2 of what your typical body shop does since he works out of his garage. His work is top notch.

When it becomes official, I will start a new thread. But I will point out the highlights of the car:

Car was a former govt car that we got with only 9,987 miles. Yes, you read that right! Now has 99,600, so it spent most of it's life as a civilian car.
Car does not burn a drop of oil.
Has Trak-loc and Traction Control.
New Ford Headlights
New Goodyear tires
New reproduction 16" hubcaps.

I won't clutter the thread any more. Just mentioning it because a couple recent posters seem like they may be interested in a car like mine.

Thanks,
Al
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/16/21 03:59 PM

Back to the thrust of the thread...

...I saw two more Black and White, modestly used patrol P71's sell for over $3000 in the past few days, a level that was about a grand to $1500 more than they would have sold for a year ago. So I guess the heat is still on.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/18/21 02:44 AM

Those of us who thought the era of over-inflated P71 prices at auction was perhaps cooling can think again.

Here's a Californian gray 2011 P71 with 41k miles and 181 hours that has already passed $8100 at auction with two days to go.

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=310&acctid=9836

It has a cracked front nose cone, no cruise control, normal interior and was used as an undercover unit. An attractive color and low miles still means big price, it seems.
Posted by: AlleyG

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/18/21 07:34 AM

Undercover unit, lol!

Okay, so on our wrecked CVPI, I am expecting a call in the next day or two. I would love to see someone come get this car and put new life into another car, or even do a bang up job on the rear and drive it another 100k miles a little banged up as we have been the last two weeks. The engine is perfect, and a lot of good parts on it.

PM me if you have any interest in the car to recycle for parts. How much I am asking depends on how much I get from insurance. I can e-mail pics. Like I said, you can drive it home. Otherwise, I won't be buying it back from insurance, which is a shame.

Thanks,
Al
Posted by: Armada Master

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/18/21 08:42 AM

Originally Posted By AlleyG
Undercover unit, lol!

Okay, so on our wrecked CVPI, I am expecting a call in the next day or two. I would love to see someone come get this car and put new life into another car, or even do a bang up job on the rear and drive it another 100k miles a little banged up as we have been the last two weeks. The engine is perfect, and a lot of good parts on it.

PM me if you have any interest in the car to recycle for parts. How much I am asking depends on how much I get from insurance. I can e-mail pics. Like I said, you can drive it home. Otherwise, I won't be buying it back from insurance, which is a shame.

Thanks,
Al


I've had to buy my last couple back from insurance after they totalled them for literally a $300 bumper cover. All insurance companies seem to be interested in is totaling these cars out to get them off the road.
Posted by: AlleyG

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/18/21 10:16 AM

Body shops add anything they can to the estimate because the insurance companies will pay it. Things like a fogged up light, etc. So, to install and paint the $300 bumper cover, it might cost close to $2k. Probably more as it's never just a bumper cover.

My T-Bird needed a fender, bumper cover, and a little work on the edge of the hood. The estimate was $4250. My body guy fixed it for $1700. He repaired the bumper cover, they make really good plastic welds these days. You can't tell the car was in an accident, except for my registration that says salvage title.

They usually don't total it unless the cost exceeds 75% of the car's value.

Al
Posted by: bluejay_32

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/18/21 11:20 AM

June 18th of last year, I hit a tire carcass. (P. 1834 of this thread.) Tore up the bumper cover, broke the fog lights, bent the radiator and support, and broke a piece off the subframe.

Ford dealer quoted me just under $2000 to fix it, including replacing the aluminum subframe. I got a check for $1400 and change and spent probably $500 doing it myself. Didn't bother with the subframe.
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/18/21 01:20 PM

I have to get rid of my '06 CVPI by the weekend. By waiting this late to sell I put myself in a [censored] situation and its surely going to decrease my profit.
Its a good solid car. ABS light is on the dash but the car has 0 drivability issues. No rust. Clean title. Needs 2 tires.
I think the car is easy worth $4k+ in this market but I just don't have time to wait for that buyer.

Posted by: jasonp1102

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/18/21 04:38 PM

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=469&acctid=240

04 black LX Sport with ~150k on it, sitting at $2k out of NC.
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/19/21 10:35 AM

I still have this car and I'm supposed to move in under 24 hours im [censored]
If i put it on govdeals last week it would have sold for $7k by now.
Posted by: RipWixomAssembly

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/19/21 09:33 PM

https://legacy.mitn.info/scripts/surplusauctions/itemdetl.asp?id=24355 There's this from a Local Dept. I wonder how high it's gonna go for on the inflated auction price standard
Posted by: jasonp1102

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/21/21 02:20 AM

That one out of Santa Clara finished at....

Sold Amount: $9,900.00
Buyer's Premium (10.00%): $990.00
Total Price: $10,890.00

Absolutely insane.
Posted by: GM_Guy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/21/21 08:34 AM

10k usd at that. $10k Canadian is ridiculous on its own, thats $12,800cad (add taxes to that when you register it). Nuts.
Posted by: jmlock

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/21/21 09:08 AM

We should have some going soon. I’ll keep an eye out see how much we get for them, but they’re worn patrol. Usually we still get the $1500 to $2000. $9k is insane.
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/21/21 10:41 AM

On the other end of the scale a Charger I was bidding on at auction a while back that went for $4,600 ended up at a car lot for $11K Talk about a markup. A second is with a private seller. Maybe I should have bid more LOL
Posted by: GM_Guy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/22/21 07:25 AM

With Huricane henri coming in, that won't be helping out the used car market. Be interesting to see how flood cars sell for flipping on copart given the current used car market.
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/23/21 06:06 PM

Just sold my former vomit comet for $4100.
That's the oldest and most expensive CV i've sold to date.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/23/21 09:04 PM

As Tenevic and Jason are testifying to, the insanity continues. That Santa Clara car was a good car, low miles, very low hours. But that headplate repair/repaint is about a grand by my estimate and at 10K at auction.... ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

However I have to disagree with AlleyG. I understand the CVNet knee-jerk tendency to poo-poo any car that claims to be an undercover or detective unit, but some are such cars and this one literally checks all the boxes and screams detective/undercover car: Not SAP but no PI badging, civilian metallic color, NO HOLES FOR LIGHTBARS, NO spotlights, low miles, extremely low idle hours, actual disclaimer by the original LE organization as such. I'd have no reason to not believe them.

My 2007 Sport was owned by a city PD. They bought it off a showroom floor, did not order it through fleet. They did not advertise it in the auction as detective/undercover, but after I bought it I called and asked them when in the hell they owned a Sport? They said they originally bought if for the Police chief and then turned it into a undercover car. It had a special civilian-imitating police radio antenna mounted to the right rear fender, not on the roof or trunk. When I picked it up it came with a key fob marked "Undercover Unit".

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Congrats tenevic, that's a very solid price for your car. I've got a white 2005 p71 with 115k sitting in the garage awaiting my detailing hand to turn it from sweaty to sparkling. It's not a special car, by any means and normally, I'd list it for about $3300 to $3500, but in this market its over $4k for sure. I paid $1850 for it.

I just saw another 2010 BLACK AND WHITE P7B with 90k miles and HAIL DAMAGE sell for over $4k in Colorado. Insane. Hail damage all over the roof, hood and trunk. An Oreo.
Posted by: AlleyG

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/24/21 07:44 AM

My point was, when I used to browse these cars on E-bay, almost every car was listed as a "supervisor" car. That's a lot of supervisors! Just because it's an unmarked car doesn't mean it wasn't beat on.

Al
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/24/21 02:20 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Congrats tenevic, that's a very solid price for your car. I've got a white 2005 p71 with 115k sitting in the garage awaiting my detailing hand to turn it from sweaty to sparkling. It's not a special car, by any means and normally, I'd list it for about $3300 to $3500, but in this market its over $4k for sure. I paid $1850 for it.

Especially with that mileage I think you'll get plenty interest at $4k+ asking. What color is it? Options?
Yes I'm very happy to have doubled my investment on this car I bought in non-driving condition for $1200. I didn't even have to give it the full detail I usually would. If someone will pay 4k+ for a base model P71 with minor paint peel and stained seats, I am more than happy to provide.
However for right now I'm back at university and this auction stuff is not really my business.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/24/21 04:03 PM

Originally Posted By AlleyG
My point was, when I used to browse these cars on E-bay, almost every car was listed as a "supervisor" car. That's a lot of supervisors! Just because it's an unmarked car doesn't mean it wasn't beat on.

Al


And of course, how were we to know what old allusion from another thread you were referencing... especially when we're looking at an actual undercover/detective car which couldn't have been "beat on" much in its 41K miles/181 hour lifetime no matter who is doing the beating. Perhaps those allusions are better placed with an actual falsely-flagged high mileage, hard ridden patrol car being resold on Craig's list, etc.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/24/21 04:13 PM

Originally Posted By Tenevic_P71
Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Congrats tenevic, that's a very solid price for your car. I've got a white 2005 p71 with 115k sitting in the garage awaiting my detailing hand to turn it from sweaty to sparkling. It's not a special car, by any means and normally, I'd list it for about $3300 to $3500, but in this market its over $4k for sure. I paid $1850 for it.

Especially with that mileage I think you'll get plenty interest at $4k+ asking. What color is it? Options?
Yes I'm very happy to have doubled my investment on this car I bought in non-driving condition for $1200. I didn't even have to give it the full detail I usually would. If someone will pay 4k+ for a base model P71 with minor paint peel and stained seats, I am more than happy to provide.
However for right now I'm back at university and this auction stuff is not really my business.


What you discovered is exactly what I've been doing for 13 Crown Vics, 2 Chargers and 3 Explorers over the past few years. People WILL PAY strangely high amounts for rather hard-ridden ex patrol cars if they are cleaned up, not too high in mileage, and the paint peel is addressed. The P71 in my garage right now is just such a car. It's white, not special, tan interior with carpet, 115k miles, no mechanical issues, peeling paint which I address with my rattle can method, dirt which I clean up (BTW those Bissell Little Green carpet cleaners work REALLY well for $85, and viola! Sell em for $4K and up.

If you bought them under $2, that's a pretty good side hustle taking no real skill and not much time to do.

Trouble is.... WE CAN'T FIND 'EM UNDER $2K ANYMORE! notworking
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/25/21 06:33 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch

What you discovered is exactly what I've been doing for 13 Crown Vics, 2 Chargers and 3 Explorers over the past few years. PeopleWILL PAY strangely high amounts for rather hard-ridden ex patrol cars if they are cleaned up, not too high in mileage, and the paint peel is addressed. The P71 in my garage right now is just such a car. It's white, not special, tan interior with carpet, 115k miles, no mechanical issues, peeling paint which I address with my rattle can method, dirt which I clean up (BTW those Bissell Little Green carpet cleaners work REALLY well for $85, and viola! Sell em for $4K and up.

If you bought them under $2, that's a pretty good side hustle taking no real skill and not much time to do.

Trouble is.... WE CAN'T FIND 'EM UNDER $2K ANYMORE! notworking

You can't get one of these for under 2k unless its undrivable and you get lucky.
This was my most labor-intense flip out of 5 vics. Transmission rebuild and entire police-decommissioning. Interestingly able to make $150 back selling the FS smartsiren on ebay.
Thus I skipped on the detail schtick. 0 drops of touch up paint applied. Was totally sick of working on the body after taking off the egregious decal scheme.
I gave it a cursory cleaning, leaving the seats stained as I found them.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/26/21 12:25 PM

I totally avoid any Vic that requires major mechanical work when bidding. The most I've ever done is change bearings and rotors. And I never commission 'em. Whatever police equip they come with, they keep. I have re-commissioned some with working strobes again, but customers didn't care so that was a waste of time. They just want them fully working, not peeling, and clean and they'll take them.

But washing and light paint patching are a piece of cake when you know it doesn't have to look factory and they'll still buy it. Stickers don't scare me and seat stains are easy peasy with right treatment. I'm not a fan of the "stick 'em in the washer" method espoused by others on here. I tried that once and the foam backing behind the fabric disintegrated. Now I use the Bissell vacuum spot cleaner plus chemicals. Works great on small spots and tricky curves.

I've been sluggish on the $1850 Idaho car in my garage, probably because I can't find anything to buy to go in its spot next. But I've actually got one guy calling me on it, asking when it will be ready cause he can't find one to buy in the want ads. The shortage hunger is still out there.
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/26/21 12:53 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
I totally avoid any Vic that requires major mechanical work when bidding. The most I've ever done is change bearings and rotors. And I never commission 'em. Whatever police equip they come with, they keep. I have re-commissioned some with working strobes again, but customers didn't care so that was a waste of time. They just want them fully working, not peeling, and clean and they'll take them.

But washing and light paint patching are a piece of cake when you know it doesn't have to look factory and they'll still buy it. Stickers don't scare me and seat stains are easy peasy with right treatment. I'm not a fan of the "stick 'em in the washer" method espoused by others on here. I tried that once and the foam backing behind the fabric disintegrated. Now I use the Bissell vacuum spot cleaner plus chemicals. Works great on small spots and tricky curves.

I've been sluggish on the $1850 Idaho car in my garage, probably because I can't find anything to buy to go in its spot next. But I've actually got one guy calling me on it, asking when it will be ready cause he can't find one to buy in the want ads. The shortage hunger is still out there.

I don't drive cars with police equipment. Whatever is leftover gets ripped out hastily. I have no use for a siren and prisoner partition and neither have any of my buyers thus far. The laptop stand however was actually pretty convenient for ForSCAN live data logging while diagnosing trans.
Do you advertise the cars before you have them shined up?
I tried the same washing machine method with the seat covers and also found it destroys the foam backing.
I work on transmissions and this vic was a prime "mechanics special" type of find with unknown transmission problems. After fixing the trans I was still under $2k total invested on the car.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/27/21 03:02 AM

No, I tend not to advertise them until they're perfect and ready to go as they'll sell in 48 hours or less when ready. I actually get repeat business and people who follow my cars, trade equipment, and joined up with the CV group and came to the last rendezvous. This guy whose calling me now missed out on two previous cars because he thought I was asking too much. When they immediately sold for asking price out from under him, he changed his mind.

I'd guess that about half the cars I've bought still had strobes and sirens in them, but always cut at the head units. Since the movies never use sirens, I've never given them a second glance, I just leave them. But P71's all need center consoles so I generally clean em and repurpose them. I've also bought them in bulk at auction for future use. I leave the laptop stands in if they're present and customers like them, but tend not to actually use them.

I agree, partitions have to go and have no value. Last car I stripped before junking I took out the gun rack and the rear seat, but just left the partition when it went to the junker. Too much work. Rear seats are always useful because eventually I get a car with plastic prisoner seats.

I don't ever keep the halogen strobes and strobe controllers any more as they are incredible power suckers and chinese led lights are much cheaper and easier should they be needed for movie use.

One thing I have had to do.... many times over... is put in aftermarket horn relays to get the horns working again. They are usually snipped somewhere between horn and console to be spliced into the old PA system and I'm never able to find the snip. So I simply go around them with a $19 aftermarket relay from battery to clockspring to horn. I generally put in new headlight lenses too as it is a cheap cosmetic improvement that people notice.
Posted by: AlleyG

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/27/21 01:01 PM

Dmblanch, on our '04, I found a harness near the passenger side of the condenser that got 12v when I pressed the horn button. I then noticed a wire with connector hanging that looked like my wire, so I unzipped the tied-off wires and plugged them together, and voila! The horn worked. Not sure if that helps, but it did on our '04. The wires, at first glance, don't look like they reached each other, but they do once untied and re-routed.

I had a good day that day - I got the horn, the driver's high beam, and interior lights al to work, lol!

Al
Posted by: AlleyG

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/27/21 01:17 PM

Dmblanch, I wanted to ask your opinion on what we should do with our wrecked '04 CVPI. It is hit in the back, and likely will be totaled. Will find out in a couple weeks, I have an appt.

The car is really nice, has some new parts, Ford headlights, etc, and the 99k motor doesn't burn a drop of oil. Trying to decide if I should buy it back from insurance. I would need to get enough on the resale for it to be worth it.

I just want to see the parts go to a good home, and I won't lie, I want to get some $$ out of it, especially if the settlement isn't what I think it should be. We paid a decent amount for the car 7 yrs ago since the mileage was so low, $9600 to be exact.

If anyone is interested in the car, send me a PM. I can post more details and pics as needed. You could literally drive the car home across country, even the rear lights and signals still work. I am selling the car whole, or not at all. Not going to be pulling the engine, etc.

Thanks,
Al
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/27/21 02:07 PM

@AlleyG if you list it for sale on CL or FB marketplace for a reasonable price you will probably have a taker before long.
The siren on my recent car was still operable. Way too tempting to play with it, it had to go.
I've had to deal with inop horn on a couple vics also. The wire from the relay to the horn sometimes gets chopped in some mysterious location. Only once I had to run a new wire. Had to replace horn assembly on one.
My recent car had a functioning horn until I accidentally cut the small yellow wire under the center of the dash while stripping out the equipment. It was easy to find and fix cause it was my own doing.
New or restored headlight lenses do make a huge difference in the appearance of the front fascia.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/29/21 12:03 AM

I'll always be for saving Vics that can be saved. I bought one Copvic this year from a relocating soldier for $500 with a host of issues, mostly cosmetic, because he begged me to and he didn't want to put it down. I obliged him because he was a soldier, but it had 176k miles on it, bad bearings, inop AC, need both front and rear fascias and paint on every panel. I calculated $2000 in repairs, even doing a bunch of them myself, which put it past the threshold of cars that I can get a profit out of because of the high mileage. So I stripped it and sent it to the bone yard, metal salvors who only paid me $275 for it. That's okay, the parts I stripped off it were worth about $600. But I hated killing the car.

Your car at 99K is still has the bones of something that could sell for $4 grand and up if in fairly decent condition. It all depends on the buy back price and how bad the damage is. If you buy it back for next to nothing (which is likely) and you've got any halfway decent body shop connections who can straighten the frame and reassemble if you supply the parts, and you can do it for a couple grand, I'd do and use it, or if you happen to sell it you won't lose money. I have one friend who does nothing but buy wrecked cars from COPARTS, but they all have to hit in the rear, not the front. Apparently there's a whole hustle with cars only hit in the rear.

While were on the topic, check out this decent (but not super special) 100k 2006 SAP for sale in the Utah want ads...

https://cars.ksl.com/listing/7398949

$8200 Asking price! Here's the thing... it is currently the only decent Crown Vic for sale in my market. The only one. All the others are shot out, high mileage peeling paints specials. He might actually get that kind of dough.

Suddenly the 4000 I paid for my 2007 Sport is not looking high at all.
Posted by: bluejay_32

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/29/21 02:37 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
While were on the topic, check out this decent (but not super special) 100k 2006 SAP for sale in the Utah want ads...

https://cars.ksl.com/listing/7398949

$8200 Asking price! Here's the thing... it is currently the only decent Crown Vic for sale in my market. The only one. All the others are shot out, high mileage peeling paints specials. He might actually get that kind of dough.

I dunno. I think I got a better car for less. laugh
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/29/21 03:29 PM

You did for sure.

I was stunned to see that in my market supply is lower than ever, which is prompting me to get that 2005 white P71 finished, out the garage and on the blocks. There's no competition at all between $4 and 5k
Posted by: AlleyG

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/30/21 07:37 AM

Yes, before all this happened, the car was going to be coming up for sale soon. I was figuring I would ask $4900, get a few hundred less, $4200 min.

My body guy said I might have close to that into it for him to fix it. It does need almost the whole car painted because of peeling on the roof, might as well paint the whole car. The frame is still perfect, the trunk area and one 1/4 panel is crushed a little.

Repairing the car does have it's downside as there is the whole "salvaged title" thing. The neighbor told me someone he knows is having a tough time selling one because the buyer's insurance won't insure the car. Hell, my insurance gave me full coverage on my salvaged title car after it was repaired!

If my wife wanted to keep the car, I might have it repaired on my own. But buying the car back from insurance with my only option being the Craigslist vultures, I doubt I will be buying it back, unfortunately.

Al
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/30/21 05:39 PM

Sounds like you're caught between the old rock and hard place.

With the salvage title ding, you'll have a hard time getting $4K+ out of the car. At least you would have a hard time in my market. With salvage title (and every state is different with regard to salvage titles. I've seen Salvaged titles in one state magically get unsalvaged in another, and the salvage only visible on Carfax)

A salvage title car is only going to be $2-3k in my area and with that much damage, I'm afraid I'd let it go, as you are leaning towards. My methodology with flipping these cars doesn't not mean I'll buy anything and everything. In fact, I have a tight set of parameters that the car must fall in for me to consider bidding on it. If it's outside the parameters, I let it go. I probably scrutinize 100 auctions, to follow 20, to bid on 5, to win only one. But the ones I ended up buying are almost always guaranteed profitable flips. The $1850 White 2005 P71 in my garage is one of the worst I've bought, with a ton of peeling paint and a very dirty interior. But even with 115k miles, it's about the best option in my market right now and will easily command $4k. I'll make a good profit but that's only because I will have put almost nothing besides spray paint and cleaning into it.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/30/21 06:17 PM

Just won a 2006 Mercury GM LS Premium, leather interior with 93K miles for only $2100. No real defects, blend door actuator out as so commonly happens, lots of peeling white paint that I can fix, but no other problems. Should be an easy peasy $4-5K flip.

So there you go, there still are bargains to be found. I can't explain really why there was so little action on this California car. It wasn't listed well with a main photo of the door sticker, not the car. The peeling paint scared people off for sure, but only 9 bidders and only three on the final day. The Second place bidder never tried to top me. Dead bidding.
Posted by: AlleyG

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/31/21 08:59 AM

Because people are only interested in CVPI's?

Good luck with the sale. Personally, I would never buy a GM. Too stodgy, they just scream "Grandmother's car". But that's just me.

Al
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/31/21 02:18 PM

At the government auction level you might be right, but it's hard to tell since they come up for sale soo infrequently. It might also be that no one had them on their search radar. But compared to the Oreo's I'm seeing of the same age going for north of $3k, I'll take this MGM all day long

At the retail level in my area they're doing just as well as CVPI's. I've seen four late model low mileage MGM's sell for $7-8500. The best over-performers are actually the stodgy velour-bench hubcapped SAPs.
Posted by: AlleyG

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/31/21 04:10 PM

Our old marked and unmarked highway patrol cars were actually SAP's, with power driver's seat, etc. Come to think of it, the city cop cars were also.

I looked at buying one at the HP service station before I got our CVPI. They had for sale signs on them, and wouldn't let you drive them, but they started them up and let you look them over. The prices were pretty darn good, $3500-$4400 for 9-10 yr old cars with around 90k miles +/-. Some were Oreos though.

Al
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 08/31/21 05:35 PM

Those are pretty standard retail prices, maybe a shade high if this was a while back that you were talking about. Worth the money, in all likelihood if under 100k miles.

One city in our area (Ogden) ordered SAP exterior for its regular patrol cars with standard rubber interior, just because they liked the look. All white. I got two of them, and a couple of buddies got two more, then the prices started skyrocketing past $5k at auction for their sisters.

I should clarify that the ones that are the hottest are SAP exteriors (since it's an exterior package) WITH the cloth/velour bench interior. Tack on Cruise control (and so many city patrol cars don't have it) and you've got the perfect P71 storm, especially if it's not white or oreo.
Posted by: Huhnigan

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 09/02/21 11:16 AM

FYI, City of Charlotte [NC] has 6 CVPIs on the block on this round of surplus auctions.

https://www.proxibid.com/Rogers-Realty-A...=100&sort=0

That 2010 (lot 75) is an old Charlotte Fire Department car. Not an SAP, but nicely optioned. Bid is currently at $1100 with 15 days left.

The last 2008 (lot 79) is another CFD car. Interior is pretty rough, but it does have a front bench seat.

Unfortunately, there's no on-site preview, so I can't go and look at them.
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 09/06/21 07:54 PM

My most memorable "car that got away" was an 07(ish) loaded dark gray P71 with SAP exterior and velour interior. It was in great shape, except mileage unknown and no keys. Sold for around $800 IIRC. This was probably 5 years ago.
I missed out on that car, may never forget it.
That is one of the cars which motivated me to collect a ring with as many key combos as I could.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 09/07/21 01:23 AM

AAAaaah, so hard to pass that one up, I hear you. Dark gray SAP with velour, that's a $7-8000 car all day long today. Since it's a 2007, right in the middle of the OD-soldering-no display era, I would have rolled the dice based on the condition alone and waited for the OD fix to reveal the mystery mileage. $75 is all it costs and that would have been well worth it even if 200k miles were revealed.

I'm trying to think about my most memorable car that got away. There were many auctions that I really wanted to jump on but I screwed up the closing time for some reason or another. Usually my memory lets me forget those screw ups.

Most recently a couple of Taurus interceptors and a bunch of Havis, Code 3, Jotto, Setina consoles, laptop stands led lights pushbars and other P71 items being sold in jumbled bulk boxes by a city here in Utah, thousand of dollars of stuff in of about 5 lots that everybody had overlooked and were closing in the early afternoon. I went and played golf, missed them all by 3 minutes coming home, no one else bid them up. Winner got them for essentially the low prices I saw them for the day before. Probably a 5x to 10x profit margin. The cars didn't go up much either.

On the flip side, then there was my armored car. My movie prop guy partner had a big shoot on a Tornado movie coming up that needed an armored car. He asked me if I'd ever seen them auctioned, I said sure, I'd seen them infrequently but them every so often. He asks me would I go partners with him on what he expected to be about a 10K cash outlay, with 8K in rental revenue expected in the first 3 months, and then whatever thereafter. I say sounds interesting.

So we search for an armored car. Takes a couple of months and we find a nice Ford F800 big beast, duals as a SWAT assault vehicle in South Carolina. We are thrilled to win the bid for only $3500, we are less thrilled to have it shipped cross country for $4000. It was an effing monster, but the movie company LOVES it. We send it to the shop to get it tweaked for the imminent rental that seems in the bag at this point and...

... while the Armored car is on its way to us from SC, we see TWO OTHERS that are newer, smaller, better condition, and closer to us in Utah come up for auction in SoCal and Arizona! They both sell for less than it would have cost us to ship them or drive them home compared to the South Carolina Monster.

... And meanwhile my Movie Prop partner gets in a squabble with the movie production company over a separate transpo issue and out of spite they don't rent it from us at all. I warned him not to complain about the other issue, but he complained and there goes the Armored Car guaranteed $8,000 rental in the first quarter!

Pissed (but stuck for $5k) I delicately indicate I want out of the deal and I'll give him a killer discount, I'll let him buy me out for exactly what I put into it... which to my everlasting relief he does a month later plus a $500 "for your troubles" fee because he's an honest guy.

Whew... dodged that bullet. So for a month I was an owner of a 22,000 lb armored car that I never drove. The other guy still has it and I don't believe he's rented it yet.
Posted by: Huhnigan

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 09/20/21 11:07 AM

Results from the Charlotte surplus auction.

2011 former CMPD. Reportedly only 9872 miles! Front bumper damage.
Sold for $6900
https://www.proxibid.com/Vehicles-Marine...mation/63470099

2010 former Charlotte Fire. 95k miles. Tan interior, front bench seat.
Sold for $4500
https://www.proxibid.com/Vehicles-Marine...mation/63470100

2010 former CMPD. 130k miles. Tan interior.
Sold for $3000
https://www.proxibid.com/Vehicles-Marine...mation/63470101

2009 former CMPD. 140k miles. Tan interior.
Sold for $3200
https://www.proxibid.com/Vehicles-Marine...mation/63470102

2008 former CMPD. 96k miles. No rear seat. Broken window regulator.
Sold for $2500
https://www.proxibid.com/Vehicles-Marine...mation/63470103

2008 former Charlotte Fire. 114k miles. Front bench seat. Big hole in LR fender from shore power. Rear bumper cracked.
Sold for $2900
https://www.proxibid.com/Vehicles-Marine...mation/63470104

I think a couple of those could have been good flip cars.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 09/20/21 01:19 PM

There are some interesting results there that indicate... at least to my eyes... that prices are maybe starting to slip back into normalcy, but none of those cars are really worth the prices they fetched.

I wouldn't go near that $6900 car with 9800 miles with a ten foot pole. It's clearly been driven real hard on patrol over whatever short mileage life it's had. Busted front and rear fascias, rocker panel scars, rusted gouges on hood. Something is fishy with that car, although the interior looks fresh. What did it hit, what is wrong with it? We don't know, but we have ample clues that something is wrong. It must have sat for years and that causes me to wonder why it sat soo long.

The best flip is probably the cheapest car, the 95k with the broken window regulator. A regulator repair is obnoxious, but cheap if you DIY and you can probably find junkyard seats and door panels. With some goo gone you remove the remaining stickum, you spend $100 on new headlights and front grille and maybe you're in it a total of $3000 to get something like $4500 out of it.
Posted by: AlleyG

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 09/20/21 02:13 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Sounds like you're caught between the old rock and hard place.

With the salvage title ding, you'll have a hard time getting $4K+ out of the car. At least you would have a hard time in my market. With salvage title (and every state is different with regard to salvage titles. I've seen Salvaged titles in one state magically get unsalvaged in another, and the salvage only visible on Carfax)

A salvage title car is only going to be $2-3k in my area and with that much damage, I'm afraid I'd let it go, as you are leaning towards. My methodology with flipping these cars doesn't not mean I'll buy anything and everything. In fact, I have a tight set of parameters that the car must fall in for me to consider bidding on it. If it's outside the parameters, I let it go. I probably scrutinize 100 auctions, to follow 20, to bid on 5, to win only one. But the ones I ended up buying are almost always guaranteed profitable flips. The $1850 White 2005 P71 in my garage is one of the worst I've bought, with a ton of peeling paint and a very dirty interior. But even with 115k miles, it's about the best option in my market right now and will easily command $4k. I'll make a good profit but that's only because I will have put almost nothing besides spray paint and cleaning into it.


Well, this is now wrapping up. Geico declared the car a total loss, and paid.......wait for it.......$6084.46! I about fell out when she told me the total as I was in my cringe position. They used local comps - the list price on 3 cars.

The weird part was they dinged me on several things, like they said my tires only had 46% tread left - they were 3 months/3k miles old, lol! And they only gave me $33 for the window tint, and ignored the aftermarket stereo and console.

But I am not complaining! We got to drive the car another month (but couldn't use the trunk), we got a BMW 530i as a rental for 11 days, and when I got our personal affects, I started it up and sat in it one last time. 99,987 miles, we kept it under 100k!

Two days before we got the news on the payout, we picked up a new 2021 Toyota Highlander! My wife has wanted an SUV for a while.

Al
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 09/20/21 03:39 PM

Based on that, I'm going out and wrecking my Geico-insured cars right now....

... wait a minute, I only carry liability insurance on them. Oh well.

Highlanders are great cars. Best rear seat legroom I've ever seen in a non-limo car. Only fault I've seen in them is the weird, super-fussy, always breaking rear lift gate. Be VERY careful you always press the button and never try to manually close the gate.
Posted by: Huhnigan

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 09/20/21 04:28 PM

Originally Posted By AlleyG
Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Sounds like you're caught between the old rock and hard place.

With the salvage title ding, you'll have a hard time getting $4K+ out of the car. At least you would have a hard time in my market. With salvage title (and every state is different with regard to salvage titles. I've seen Salvaged titles in one state magically get unsalvaged in another, and the salvage only visible on Carfax)

A salvage title car is only going to be $2-3k in my area and with that much damage, I'm afraid I'd let it go, as you are leaning towards. My methodology with flipping these cars doesn't not mean I'll buy anything and everything. In fact, I have a tight set of parameters that the car must fall in for me to consider bidding on it. If it's outside the parameters, I let it go. I probably scrutinize 100 auctions, to follow 20, to bid on 5, to win only one. But the ones I ended up buying are almost always guaranteed profitable flips. The $1850 White 2005 P71 in my garage is one of the worst I've bought, with a ton of peeling paint and a very dirty interior. But even with 115k miles, it's about the best option in my market right now and will easily command $4k. I'll make a good profit but that's only because I will have put almost nothing besides spray paint and cleaning into it.


Well, this is now wrapping up. Geico declared the car a total loss, and paid.......wait for it.......$6084.46! I about fell out when she told me the total as I was in my cringe position. They used local comps - the list price on 3 cars.

The weird part was they dinged me on several things, like they said my tires only had 46% tread left - they were 3 months/3k miles old, lol! And they only gave me $33 for the window tint, and ignored the aftermarket stereo and console.

But I am not complaining! We got to drive the car another month (but couldn't use the trunk), we got a BMW 530i as a rental for 11 days, and when I got our personal affects, I started it up and sat in it one last time. 99,987 miles, we kept it under 100k!

Two days before we got the news on the payout, we picked up a new 2021 Toyota Highlander! My wife has wanted an SUV for a while.

Al


I just switched to Geico and I debated going with liability only on the LXS. I'm glad I didn't!

Yeah, I think that 2008 with the busted window regulator would be a great flip. The one Charlotte fire car without the short power hole has potential too.
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 09/20/21 07:29 PM

That low miles CMPD car is strange. Its possible the damage is from a single collision crashing over something. Many unanswered questions, would have to see that one in person. The interior looks very good.
I agree that now the prices have seemingly reached a plateau and are not booming anymore.
Posted by: GM_Guy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 09/21/21 08:19 PM

That low mile car has a story to tell. The rubber marks seem to point to training car. The glue residue all over seems to point to vinyl wrap and maybe a school resource officer car so sitting more than moving.
I went on a google hunt for that car, couldn't find it. But Unit 446, and unit 514 are regular street patrol units, and cmpd is not on the hood on any of the cmpd cars I saw, just "police" which seems to support this car wasn't used for regular day to day duty.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 09/21/21 08:29 PM

Heavy scuffs all around plus low mileage does point to training car and I've heard mixed reports about the desirability of training cars. Some LEO's have said to me that they are the hardest abused of all cars, that every single one of their miles is full throttle, full brake pushed to its limits doing 180's etc. Others say, hey they're always low mileage, super low hours.
Posted by: Armada Master

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 09/22/21 09:12 AM

I thought training car too when I viewed that one.

Knowing what ours go through at our training track I'd never want one for myself, maybe to flip & dump.
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 09/22/21 05:51 PM

Watch that low miler show up as yet another clean FBI car, rarely used security car or some other made up reason to explain the low mileage to get top dollar for it.
Posted by: GM_Guy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 09/22/21 06:43 PM

Vin of the low mileage car so we can keep tabs on it and see if it does show up as an fbi car in the future. =-)
2FABP7BV0BX118582
Posted by: Huhnigan

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 09/23/21 09:19 AM

Training car. That makes a lot of sense.
I would actually be surprised if it was flipped. I see a TON of former CMPD cars driving around. I think a good number of those auction cars stay local.
Posted by: RipWixomAssembly

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 09/25/21 03:01 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Heavy scuffs all around plus low mileage does point to training car and I've heard mixed reports about the desirability of training cars. Some LEO's have said to me that they are the hardest abused of all cars, that every single one of their miles is full throttle, full brake pushed to its limits doing 180's etc. Others say, hey they're always low mileage, super low hours.


Yeah i'd agree on them being the worst, maybe school resource officer cars are bad too. Because at least the one at my school spends pretty much the whole day idling
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 10/18/21 08:30 PM

We haven't updated this in awhile, so I thought I'd give a fresh report from my area.

There are currently no good, late model, lower mileage P71 or P74's available in Utah. Just picked over ragged runts. There are a couple of decent MGM's at about $7000, so inventory remains low and prices high. These facts have caused me to re-evaluate what I'm doing with my 2006 MGM with peelformance white paint and a rough leather interior. It only has 98K, rides and runs great and now I know I can recondition the leather into great shape. So I'm dumping a couple of G's into its paint and will try to sell for $7.

At auction, good cars are still going for high prices. Sacramento has two good SAP's in metallic colors with velour seats and under 100K miles that are going over 3k with days to go.

More interesting than that is the extreme paucity of available Vics for auction in the west right now. Stocks of good cars are less than a half dozen.
Posted by: Armada Master

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 10/19/21 11:28 AM

This is one of the last few live public auctions left in SE TX, I will probably attending it this Saturday, only two Vics left where just a few years ago it would have almost all been CVPIs:

https://www.onlinepros.com/auctions/detail/bw65996

I'll report back what prices they go for if I attend.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 10/19/21 03:51 PM

I looked over the inventory of that auction... lots of good low mileage, not-shot-out vehicles there to be had. If it were in my area, it would get good activity on the Vics, the ambulances, the Tahoes and much more.

I'll be interested to hear what kind of prices they fetch.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 10/21/21 01:01 AM

Looks like it's still SAP time in Sacramento County.

They just posted 3 more gorgeous metallic SAP's, under 100k miles, under 200 idle hours, no dings. That's in addition to the two they have closing tomorrow that are already bid over $3K. I'd expect those two to close at $4-6K each.
Posted by: Armada Master

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 10/25/21 09:32 AM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
I looked over the inventory of that auction... lots of good low mileage, not-shot-out vehicles there to be had. If it were in my area, it would get good activity on the Vics, the ambulances, the Tahoes and much more.

I'll be interested to hear what kind of prices they fetch.


I made it over there Saturday, there were only the two Vics, I'll break them down as follows:

2010 CVPI 100k miles:
https://bid.onlinepros.com/ui/auctions/65996/6482893

^^This one sold for $4200, never started because battery crew left to go jump off equipment while auctioneer kept selling cars. This was a grimy, dirty patrol shop with the back seat missing. Carpet & cloth. Paint was decent, lightbar removed. Glob of silicone on roof.

2007 CVPI 72k miles:
https://bid.onlinepros.com/ui/auctions/65996/6482896
^^THis one sold for $3700, never started due to lack of jumper crew as mentioned, this one had a bad spot on the roof (thanks Peelformance White) & a ding in the driver's door. Interior much nicer, & cleaner in this one than the aforementioned 2010, less dirty & had a regular backseat in it. Also carpet, cloth, & cruise. BUT, the guys that bought this one, I saw them later trying & failing miserably to get it started, they still did not have it going by the time I left.

Side notes:
The Tahoes were all 2012-2017 or so, they all sold between $9k & $14k.

The Fusion were all 2006-2017. They sold between about $6k on up to $14k.


Special mention:
This 2002 Silverado with 42k miles well optioned with bad roof paint sold for $6900. Jumped it off to start it & ran well for the sale. Then I saw the guy trying to leave in it & it was dying, backfiring, & he had to 2-foot it getting it out of the lot. Made me feel better about what I bought...

I bought this:
2004 Silverado 125k for $4600:
https://bid.onlinepros.com/ui/auctions/65996/6482837
They had to jump it off, started right up no smoking, rattles, or knocking. Cold A/C, tilt, cruise, carpet, cloth, manual windows, manual locks. Nice inside other than Needs headliner, standard-issue GM cracked dash pad, & clear coat is peeling. New tires on rear, old dryrotted tires on front. Made the drive over a hour to get home under it's own power. Not sure if I am going to keep it & replace my ancient 1989 C1500 with or yet or not. I watched essentially this same truck but a 2005 sell at another online auction locally about a month back for $7400, so I feel like I did okay on this one even with today's inflated prices.
woot
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 10/25/21 12:01 PM

Well, that tells me that live auction prices in Texas are still going high.

Meanwhile, I have a solid-running, no-flaws, good tires, newish battery, no peeling paint 2005 P71 with 116K miles for sale locally at $4100, not a single call at $4100.

Normally I get scammer calls coming out of the woodwork in the first few days. Perhaps I'm overmarket, but a look at the competition says no.
Posted by: Armada Master

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 10/27/21 03:52 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Well, that tells me that live auction prices in Texas are still going high.


For contrast this truck that's very similiar to the one I just bought Saturday for $4600 sold a couple months back for over $7k:

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=1186&acctid=1731
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 10/28/21 12:11 PM

Good point. Maybe were sitting on the flex point in the market as it starts to go back down towards normalcy because I still haven’t had a single call on my crown vic for sale and i’m about to drop it in price.
Posted by: Armada Master

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 10/29/21 11:21 AM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Good point. Maybe were sitting on the flex point in the market as it starts to go back down towards normalcy because I still haven’t had a single call on my crown vic for sale and i’m about to drop it in price.


Also we're rolling into the end of the year, last couple months are hard to sell anything (holidays, trips, etc), but usually the best time of year to buy something, especially from auctions.
Posted by: av8or1

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 10/30/21 10:12 AM

Originally Posted By Armada Master
For contrast this truck that's very similiar to the one I just bought Saturday for $4600 sold a couple months back for over $7k:

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=1186&acctid=1731

Yeah but in TEXAS the truck "is King" as the saying goes. The fella from whom we purchased The 5-O does the auction-fix-resell thing for a living and is a dealer. He has always told me that trucks are his staple because he can't buy enough of them and because they never sit long on his lot. Heck one of the last times I was out his way he had a couple of basket cases that were 70s vintage trucks. Both were purchased by folk who purportedly were planning on restoring them. 'Point being that even those critters sold within a week. So I'm not surprised that you were able to flip that GovDeals truck like you were. Congratulations on a good result! Do you flip too, as in being a dealer?
Posted by: Armada Master

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/01/21 09:29 AM

Originally Posted By av8or1
Originally Posted By Armada Master
For contrast this truck that's very similiar to the one I just bought Saturday for $4600 sold a couple months back for over $7k:

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=1186&acctid=1731

Yeah but in TEXAS the truck "is King" as the saying goes. The fella from whom we purchased The 5-O does the auction-fix-resell thing for a living and is a dealer. He has always told me that trucks are his staple because he can't buy enough of them and because they never sit long on his lot. Heck one of the last times I was out his way he had a couple of basket cases that were 70s vintage trucks. Both were purchased by folk who purportedly were planning on restoring them. 'Point being that even those critters sold within a week. So I'm not surprised that you were able to flip that GovDeals truck like you were. Congratulations on a good result! Do you flip too, as in being a dealer?


That's not my Govdeals truck, that was just a similiar one to what I purchased from Lemons Auctioneers/Fort Bend County a couple weeks ago. I try & flip a few a year as an individual, but with limited access to only public auctions which have gone mostly online, I only wind up getting to do a couple a year these days at best.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/01/21 01:26 PM

Well, perhaps I spoke too early. I see that the City of Sumner Washington, outside Seattle Tacoma, just auctioned a silver patrol P71, that they describe as "2011 crown victoria, 71000 miles, 2835 hrs, ex-patrol car, average condition" for $5100.

If it has low miles and is a later year, looks like they still command premium prices.
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/06/21 05:00 PM

Still Crown vics showing up in the auctions around Tennessee. Mostly well-used patrol units, commonly mechanical problems included. Still look like mostly solid cars however.
Prices holding steady for the most part.
I see THIS LISTING for one of KPD snow weather units. Note the studded rear snow tires. "Rusty bad". Yikes.
Posted by: Stangstinger

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/09/21 04:50 PM

Tenevic- That unit, if it had working power steering, would go for over 4k in my area. You guys are very blessed to have an abundance of Vics still at your disposal, and often times without rust. Here, they go for 2-3k at auction with visible rust on the exterior of the body, usually completely rotted out underneath. Being rust free here, regardless of miles, would get you to 4-5k resale alone. I am so jealous of all the rust free 1-2k vics I keep seeing here at other state's auctions, even if they have 120-140k miles or are dirty or have minor cosmetic or interior flaws. I am REALLY getting tempted to just go south or out west and get some of these 3k dollar cars and bring them here, clean them up, and flip for 5-6k. I need to look into auctions that are happening in nearby rust free states such as OK, TN, AR, etc. It is hard though to bid without seeing them in person and to rely on the description in the listing and a few pictures.

Dmblanch- In my area crown Vics are still available at auction, albeit far more uncommon than they used to be. The units being sold now tend to be government owned fleet vehicles used for services outside of police duty, such as county cars, assessor vehicles, etc. With that said, the only ones nearby right now are chargers. There are two 2015's available that claim to have no issues at all, no dash lights on, no problems. They each have about 130k miles and look to be in decent shape. They both have 5.7s and were used as state patrol vehicles. Neither has any bidding action and they close soon. Both are listed at 5k. Overpriced? I would have thought these are easy flips prior to reading your assessment of charger reliability compared to a crown vic. Now I am hesitant as I do not want any engine issues. I do recall seeing in the past these chargers getting flipped by dealers for like 8-10k though, and this was even before the COVID bubble.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/09/21 09:04 PM

Well, as you may have read on here in other threads, I've expressed my distaste for chargers numerous times. They sell for higher prices than our beloved reliable vics, no matter what age, but they come with many more costly repair issues, most notably the dreaded cam and lifter tick endemic to the post 2009 VVT Chargers going all the way up to present. It's a $4000 repair caused by the top end of the engine being starved of oil with excessive idling, wearing grooves in the cam and eventually causing misfires and lifter failure after the notorious tick sets in. This is the worst of their problems, they're also known for front end suspension issues and power steering pump failures. Often REPEATED failures of these same components multiple times with the first 100k miles.

By 100k miles a police charger is generally shot out. The State of Utah Highway Patrol has just decided to purge its fleet of ALL chargers in favor of Tahoes and Explorers and you can now see many AWD 2017 and 2018 UHP Chargers with around 100-110k miles up for sale on Govdeals. The State doesn't know how to sell them, they posted them with buy-it-nows equal to their reserve prices, which were about $14k dollars.

Unsurprisingly, none sold. So they relisted them, this time they foolishly also put of videos of the engine bay upon start up and every single video reveals a badly ticking engine. They might as well put up a sign that says WARNING: CAM AND LIFTER PROBLEMS, ENGINE SHOT OUT.

And now they don't get any bids over $6,000, so nothing sells and they relist the same cars over and over again fruitlessly.

At the same time the city of South Jordan Utah decided to purge it's fleet of all its Chargers, INCLUDING current late model 2018 units with as few as 20-50K miles. These were running, in service cars that any other agency could put straight on the streets, but South Jordan said "BASTA! We've had it."

Smart decision, because these AWD Chargers are selling like hotcakes on Public Surplus for 18 to 20k each.

And then there's Cedar City Utah, a smallish city down south where I just picked up a Charger today and had a loooooong talk with the fleet manager about this very issue.

Cedar City has also decided it has had it with Chargers and is purging its fleet. They are moving to all F150 trucks with the 5.0 V8, no Ecoboost for them. Their reasoning is if they change their livery colors to white or silver, those trucks can see a second life with Parks or Public Works after they've been rode hard by PD. And the 5.0 is pretty reliable. Smart thinking.

I asked this fleet manager about his historical experience with the cam/lifter failure in the 5.7. He said that while 2009 was the first year that had it, they didn't start to notice the issue at all until 3 or four years down the road (2013 or so), and then they didn't know what caused it and Dodge was telling them there wasn't a problem and they thought Dodge would fix it with newer generations. Plus Ford dropped the Vic and the Taurusceptor didn't really fill its void so Dodge was the only Sedan game in town.

And the problem persisted, year after year, only seeming to get worse. I've had one fleet manager tell me he's seen cam/lifter failure under 50k miles. Another told me he had done the repair twice on a car he was auction under 100k miles. The result is, they've simply had it.

But backin up a tic, did I actually say I just bought a hemi charger? You read me right I did, something I said I'd never do. Well, hear me out.

I've owned two V6 Chargers and I thought they were decently powered. Both had front end (ball joints tie rods struts) problems but the repairs weren't crippling. I sold both quickly for good profits because knuckleheaded 20 year old males gobble them up. But I swore to avoid the dreaded hemi.

Well, I still sorta did. The cam and lifter curse only came on in 2009 with the introduction of Dodge's VVT engine. And in fairness to Dodge, the GM engines that also have VVT or its equivalent ALSO have cam and lifter issues (notably the 6.0 Holden Caprice police car) and just like the Dodge they suffer and start to have issues at about 100K miles thanks to excessive idling.

I bought a 2007 Charger Hemi with old engine that is not prone to the cam and lifter tick. Sure enough, when I picked it up it sounded and ran fine. 87K miles, a black and white with excellent ding-free exterior and near new Firehawk tires that's going straight to movie duty. I'm pretty pleased with this car even though it's a dodge.

Now older Chargers also have their problems. They're more prone to front end wear and they all have the power steering pump issue which is a $450 part (Ouch!). But the big crippling curse of the C&L is not an issue. So I bought it... for $3500.

Which is more than I'd pay for a 2007 B&W P71 with the same mileage for sure. (About $2k for the Vic, I'd think.) Of course if I gussy both of them up, and paint the white bits black, I'd get $4k for the vic but $8k+ for the Charger. So basically I can't afford to paint the Vic and still make money, but I can paint the Charger and walk away with a few g's. That's why I bought it. In the meantime, it does movie duty.

But to be honest, I'd rather have the Vic and drive the vic. As cheap as our P71 interiors are, the Charger's are cheaper. Visibility better in the Vic, comfort better, reliability much better. Yes, the hemi gets up and goes, but this is just not important to me any more.

Those are my thoughts anwyay. Now we wait for the poobahs to tell me I'm wrong on each and every count.

Posted by: bluejay_32

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/10/21 12:23 AM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Those are my thoughts anwyay. Now we wait for the poobahs to tell me I'm wrong on each and every count.


Not this time. I agree with everything you said about those Chryslers - especially the gun-slit windows.
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/10/21 12:35 AM

I want to buy a hemi charger, still haven't gotten around to it. Some people swear by them. Not fleet managers.
Vast selection of 2011-2015 chargers at the auction now from local departments, they're all ticking.
Posted by: Moby_Vic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/10/21 05:45 AM

Not auction related, but I had a guy (driving a 392 Hemi Charger) offer me $6K for my car while I was stopped at a traffic light! He noticed the boost gauge on my A pillar and started asking me about the car.
Posted by: Armada Master

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/10/21 09:57 AM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch

Those are my thoughts anwyay. Now we wait for the poobahs to tell me I'm wrong on each and every count.



I've had slightly different experiences from working fleet but I agree with the V8 Chargers having problems.

They forced us into Exploraceptor hybrids this last batch of cars we got instead of our usual Tahoe PPVs. We got an order of about ten of them, & 7 or 8 had to go immediately back to the dealership for stupid problems where they sat for months waiting on parts. The Tahoes we started running after the demise of the CVPI, were relatively bulletproof until about the 2015 model year change, now those we are randomly having to replace motors in for no good reason, probably due to cylinder deactivation (VVT), full of oil...then they start ticking & missing. After the Exploraceptor hybrid issues we had out of the last bunch, we're going back to Tahoes on our next order.

I drove a 2021 V6 Charger last week that I had to go pick up as a "trip" car for my Captain since the Explorer hybrids are unreliable [censored]. I really tried to not like this car but it rides so much better & drives so much better than the miserable Exploraceptor hybrids & too-tall Tahoes.

If they'd take the hybrid/start/stop tech off the Exploraceptors, they'd probably edge out the Tahoes, they're a lot easier to get into & out of, with better visibility vs. the Tahoe. But with that start/stop/hybrid tech on them, they're less than reliable & miserable to drive.

I've seen V6 Chargers with 200k-300k miles at recent auctions, but they seem to dump the V8 Chargers early due to the problems you mentioned. I'd be real tempted to look into a V6 one after all the Vics disappear for good.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/10/21 11:38 AM

Well, surprise surprise!

I'm not going to disagree with anything Armada just said, in fact I'm going to confirm most of it.

The fleet managers I've talked to all, to a T, hate any ExplorerCeptor with Hybrid and Ecoboost. The added complexity fails too frequently for police use. Early on one local fleet manager told me in no uncertain terms to NEVER buy a used police Interceptor (either version) with Ecoboost or hybrid. He said the turbos don't last for squat on the former in police hands. But the naturally aspirated normal ones are pretty good and nice to drive ... as long as you keep your eye on the dreaded waterpump/timing chain issue!

And most managers and LEO's of my acquaintance say the same thing Armada says about the Tahoe. They love it for the room and it was reliable, if too big, but then VVT issues have started to creep in.

I think the operative thing with the fleet manager feedback is the "trickle down" accumulation of problems that take a while to seep into their consciousness and build up towards resentment. I buy and look at a lot of police cars at auction and every time I get a fleet manager I pepper him with questions about his cars and what he's doing for as long as he'll talk to me. They expect issues and its their job to fix problems and a normal amount of problems seem to fall under their "tolerable" category. Like the Explorerceptor waterpump timing chain flaw. They know they all fail, they know it's an issue, so if the car ever comes in for a major service around 75K they'll replace the pump for preventative maintenance. They don't freak out about it. But when they see every single car fail for the same thing, too early and too often, then they start to get resentful.

Regarding the V6 chargers, I think too many departments simply overlooked buying them in favor of the hemi's because they thought they were underpowered. Everybody bought hemi's. But the V6's seemed plenty zippy to me and they just keep going, like Armada said. Right now, the movie company I work with is looking to replace/add a couple of 2015 to current chargers and I've convinced the owner to look for v6's, which are indistinguishable from the outside. He was only convinced after I showed him dozens upon dozens of auctions for V8 hemi's, page after page of ticking cars with check engine lights on or disclaimers of "bad motors" that had only 80, 100, 110k miles and were shot out. Both of the 2015 hemi's he owns have the death tick, but he's driving them till they drop and the movies don't put much mileage on them.
Posted by: GM_Guy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/10/21 03:58 PM

Back in the old days, they made engines with a margin of built in reliability keeping all the "working at the edge of design capabilities" out of the picture. Seems just about everything these days is built to that design limit rather than leave a good amount of room for error.
Posted by: Ponyguy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/10/21 06:33 PM

Originally Posted By GM_Guy
Back in the old days, they made engines with a margin of built in reliability keeping all the "working at the edge of design capabilities" out of the picture. Seems just about everything these days is built to that design limit rather than leave a good amount of room for error.


Agreed, heartily!

Back in the good old days, you could usually eke out a few more ponies and a little more torque by judicious adjustments of the carburetor, ignition timing, and valve lash. No more... it's all electronically tuned to the fraction of a whisker.

And, a "hot car" would occasionally sneak out of the factory... an otherwise ordinary car where the tolerances stacked up just right, the clearances just a bit closer to perfect, and it just ran a little bit better and a little bit faster than all the rest of the model's production...

Not any more...
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/14/21 01:56 PM

Here's another one for you guys from Knoxville.
2011 54k mile K9 unit

Body looks pretty straight, low mileage except the dash is lit up like a christmas tree. Curious of the idle hours.
Every ex-K9 car I've seen in person had a stench which would knock you down from 20 feet away. I could not buy one of these cars for personal use.
Posted by: Armada Master

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/15/21 09:34 AM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Well, surprise surprise!

I'm not going to disagree with anything Armada just said, in fact I'm going to confirm most of it.

The fleet managers I've talked to all, to a T, hate any ExplorerCeptor with Hybrid and Ecoboost. The added complexity fails too frequently for police use. Early on one local fleet manager told me in no uncertain terms to NEVER buy a used police Interceptor (either version) with Ecoboost or hybrid. He said the turbos don't last for squat on the former in police hands. But the naturally aspirated normal ones are pretty good and nice to drive ... as long as you keep your eye on the dreaded waterpump/timing chain issue!

And most managers and LEO's of my acquaintance say the same thing Armada says about the Tahoe. They love it for the room and it was reliable, if too big, but then VVT issues have started to creep in.

I think the operative thing with the fleet manager feedback is the "trickle down" accumulation of problems that take a while to seep into their consciousness and build up towards resentment. I buy and look at a lot of police cars at auction and every time I get a fleet manager I pepper him with questions about his cars and what he's doing for as long as he'll talk to me. They expect issues and its their job to fix problems and a normal amount of problems seem to fall under their "tolerable" category. Like the Explorerceptor waterpump timing chain flaw. They know they all fail, they know it's an issue, so if the car ever comes in for a major service around 75K they'll replace the pump for preventative maintenance. They don't freak out about it. But when they see every single car fail for the same thing, too early and too often, then they start to get resentful.

Regarding the V6 chargers, I think too many departments simply overlooked buying them in favor of the hemi's because they thought they were underpowered. Everybody bought hemi's. But the V6's seemed plenty zippy to me and they just keep going, like Armada said. Right now, the movie company I work with is looking to replace/add a couple of 2015 to current chargers and I've convinced the owner to look for v6's, which are indistinguishable from the outside. He was only convinced after I showed him dozens upon dozens of auctions for V8 hemi's, page after page of ticking cars with check engine lights on or disclaimers of "bad motors" that had only 80, 100, 110k miles and were shot out. Both of the 2015 hemi's he owns have the death tick, but he's driving them till they drop and the movies don't put much mileage on them.


Ironically, after I posted this the other day, we got turned on our ear for our next Tahoe order.

So long story short, our fleet purchaser spoke to their GM person, & they cannot fill our Tahoe order for the foreseeable future thanks to the chip shortage. They did not cancel it per-se, but said it would essentially be on back order until an "unknown date" while they catch up on other production. We've heard grumblings that GM wants out of the Tahoe PPV business, because they aren't making that much money selling them to us at $35k vs. dressing them up & selling them to the general public for $50k+, now I am starting to believe it.

Ford on the other hand is ramping up police vehicle production so now we are getting our next order reluctantly from them (again). Only caveat is we did change our K9 units to non-hybrid Explorers instead.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/15/21 12:11 PM

Originally Posted By Tenevic_P71
Here's another one for you guys from Knoxville.

Body looks pretty straight, low mileage except the dash is lit up like a christmas tree. Curious of the idle hours.
Every ex-K9 car I've seen in person had a stench which would knock you down from 20 feet away. I could not buy one of these cars for personal use.


This is an interesting case study, I'm glad Tenevic brought it up. Is this car a case for salvage/flipping or not?

On the positive side it has only 54k miles and it's a 2011. That means that if it were clean and pretty and whole, it would be a $5k car. But what would it take to get it clean and pretty and whole? That's where this becomes interesting.

Here's the methodology I use:
  • Ignore the dirty paint, sticker residue scum under the light bar etc. ALL OF THAT WILL COME OFF with washing and policshing.
  • Ignore the missing lights. $120 gets you a whole new set. But upon closer inspection, many other parts are missing.
  • Is there any major dent damage? No, so you can work with that.
  • How are the tires. Okay, can live with them.
  • How bad is the front seat? Decent. That's good.
  • What about those dash lights? ABS and brake lights are all going to go away by changing front wheel bearings discs and rotors, and that's maybe gonna be $200 in parts.
  • Check engine lights are unknown and unusual, maybe the worst red flag. Why is it bad? Because 99 times out of 100 on other P71's you DON'T even have to deal with check engine lights. Ignore the tire lights, everyone else always does. If you want to pay $70 a sensor, be my guest, I just pump my tires up.
  • Dog cage is bad, dog stink is worse. If you take EVERYTHING out and de-stinkify with a carpet shampooer and then run the ozone machine for a couple of days, it'll pass, but that's a lot of work. But you need two machines to do this work which cost about $200 to buy. I have them, but most don't, and a lot of elbow grease. Knowing the amount of work involved, I'm starting to back away.
  • Vinyl rear seats aren't hard to find and may cost $100.

So what you've got is a car that could be saved and would need probably about $500-$750 more investment in it plus a bunch of your own labor to save it in order to get a decent car out of it. I'd have to buy it well under $2000 for it to be worth my trouble and even then I'd hesitate. Why? Because so many other Vics don't need this much work in order to resurrect.

Then there is the fear factor. This car has been neglected shunted aside and its carcass picked over. Why? What's the underlying reason why this low mileage car was shunted to the bone yard? That big unknown would cause me to pass this car by even at the $1000 price it sits at now.
Posted by: 2011LX

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/15/21 02:53 PM

Originally Posted By Ponyguy
Originally Posted By GM_Guy
Back in the old days, they made engines with a margin of built in reliability keeping all the "working at the edge of design capabilities" out of the picture. Seems just about everything these days is built to that design limit rather than leave a good amount of room for error.


Agreed, heartily!

Back in the good old days, you could usually eke out a few more ponies and a little more torque by judicious adjustments of the carburetor, ignition timing, and valve lash. No more... it's all electronically tuned to the fraction of a whisker.

And, a "hot car" would occasionally sneak out of the factory... an otherwise ordinary car where the tolerances stacked up just right, the clearances just a bit closer to perfect, and it just ran a little bit better and a little bit faster than all the rest of the model's production...

Not any more...


Everything was a little "overbuilt" back then because manufacturing processes wouldn't allow for anything less. Look at the engine castings of your classic Chevy/ford/mopars small blocks, for instance. You don't know what you've got until you magnaflux and sonic test. One engine will take a .060 bore, the next one will expose a pinhole after .020. None of them would take 1000hp without modifications like V8s from the big 3 today.

By contrast, today's castings are all uniform and consistent.

I disagree that old engines weren't built with a significant "margin of reliability. If they could have made cuts, they would have.
Posted by: GM_Guy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/15/21 06:41 PM

Engine wise you can apply it 2v vs 4v for the cop cars, 2v; adequate horsepower and gets you there.
Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/15/21 06:46 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
This is an interesting case study, I'm glad Tenevic brought it up. Is this car a case for salvage/flipping or not?

Body looks good in this case. I don't care about ABS either. CEL+wrench light is definitely concerning, however would not keep me from buying this car.
That dog cage is the hangup, I just couldn't do it. K9 cars are basically parts/derby cars in my eyes. I don't see how you could get the smell out, short of stripping the entire interior. Even then the stink will linger somehow. Just look at the giant mat of hair in the rear package tray. Puke.
Maybe it would be worth it if you could clean it up and sell to someone who can't smell.
Posted by: Bellwestern80

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/15/21 07:18 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch

Those are my thoughts anwyay. Now we wait for the poobahs to tell me I'm wrong on each and every count.



Nah, that's pretty on point.

The current going stuff besides the cam and lifters is cooling fans (which occasionally break apart enough to kill the radiator), water pumps, electric/hydraulic power steering pump, and the front end components.

They're quite tired by 70K and usually will have most of that stuff swapped by that time.

Do they drive nice new? Yes. Got power? Yes. Long term reliability? No.

The 5.7 cam/lifter issue is honestly the worst sticking point. I don't think I haven't heard one over 100K with a few thousand idle hours on it that doesn't rattle like a sumbitch on start-up.


Allegedly the V8 coupled to the AWD system is abusive to it and is why the AWD option is only now offered with the V6 engine. The AWD does get in the way of some easier front end part replacements on the RWD cars.
Posted by: bluejay_32

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/15/21 09:56 PM

Originally Posted By Armada Master
We've heard grumblings that GM wants out of the Tahoe PPV business, because they aren't making that much money selling them to us at $35k vs. dressing them up & selling them to the general public for $50k+, now I am starting to believe it.

Ford on the other hand is ramping up police vehicle production so now we are getting our next order reluctantly from them (again). Only caveat is we did change our K9 units to non-hybrid Explorers instead.

Last time I was on a lot I didn't see one under 70k and that was before COVID and the chip shortage.

For what it's worth I've seen a ton of New York State Troopers lately and every single one has been a Charger. Don't now it they're V6s or V8s but that's all they have patrolling the 90 looking for speeders. Any town cars I've seen lately have been Exploriceptors in any part of New York. I can't remember the last time I saw a Tahoe. May have been the one that pulled me over early in COVID.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/15/21 10:55 PM

Originally Posted By Tenevic_P71

Body looks good in this case. I don't care about ABS either. CEL+wrench light is definitely concerning, however would not keep me from buying this car.
That dog cage is the hangup, I just couldn't do it. K9 cars are basically parts/derby cars in my eyes. I don't see how you could get the smell out, short of stripping the entire interior. Even then the stink will linger somehow. Just look at the giant mat of hair in the rear package tray. Puke.
Maybe it would be worth it if you could clean it up and sell to someone who can't smell.

It can be done, but here's the work that would have to go into it:
  • remove the cage and all the seats. Remove the whole back shelf, preferably throw it away and replace with another used junkyard shelf.
  • Thorough vacuum and clean with anti-pet odor chemicals, touching every interior surface. Pray you don't have carpet. Clean out of all vents.
  • Then there's the headliner. Replacement preferred, but an upside down carpet shampoo vac with anti-pet chemicals is your next step. This is going to be the worst of it.
  • The front seats have to be similarly shampooed with the machine and chemicals about 3 times. This is easier to do while stretched over the cushions, I don't recommend pulling them off and washing them.


After all this is done, you put all the pieces back in and then you run the ozone ionizer inside the closed car for about 24 hrs, two or three times.

This will have a huge impact but will make the car smell "metallic" or like industrial chemicals. So you have to put a new pleasant smell back in, take your pick, then you'll be okay.

If that sounds like a lot of work, it is. A detailer would need a week and would probably charge you about a grand for that service, not to mention the cost of parts.

Hence the reason why I never buy k-9 cars.
Posted by: GM_Guy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/16/21 05:02 PM

Recording the k9 car vin, make it another one of those to see if it pops up on a reseller site sometime; 2FABP7BV8BX125828
Posted by: Stangstinger

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/16/21 06:16 PM

Originally Posted By bluejay_32
Originally Posted By Armada Master
We've heard grumblings that GM wants out of the Tahoe PPV business, because they aren't making that much money selling them to us at $35k vs. dressing them up & selling them to the general public for $50k+, now I am starting to believe it.

Ford on the other hand is ramping up police vehicle production so now we are getting our next order reluctantly from them (again). Only caveat is we did change our K9 units to non-hybrid Explorers instead.

Last time I was on a lot I didn't see one under 70k and that was before COVID and the chip shortage.

For what it's worth I've seen a ton of New York State Troopers lately and every single one has been a Charger. Don't now it they're V6s or V8s but that's all they have patrolling the 90 looking for speeders. Any town cars I've seen lately have been Exploriceptors in any part of New York. I can't remember the last time I saw a Tahoe. May have been the one that pulled me over early in COVID.


Thats interesting to me. I spent quite some time recently in NYC, and one of the things I noticed is just how many different vehicles they have doing government or police work. They make police cars out of anything there it seems, specifically, larger trucks and vans. Aside from these weird kinds of police vehicles, all I remember seeing in NYC were explorers and Impalas. Didnt see any Tahoes. Did not see any chargers, but I did not venture out of the city either. You'd think with the conditions of the life a police vehicle has in NYC it'd be the most reliable thing they can find. That's why I was a bit surprised to see so many impalas.
Posted by: Stangstinger

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/16/21 06:21 PM

Also update on prices near me: no crown Vics in our recent State patrol auction, but in my state we primarily have chargers or F150/250s as state patrol vehicles anyways. Two 2015 chargers for sale. 1 with 145k, 1 with 133k. No hours "known" on either of them. Black cars with torn apart interiors, good tires, good bodies. Videos of them idling indicate no tick nor lights on dash. Was looking at them, but prices soared quickly. 145k went for over 7k before taxes and fees. 133k went for $9,020 without taxes.

Crazy prices for auction around here.
Posted by: 2011LX

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/16/21 06:55 PM

Originally Posted By Stangstinger
Originally Posted By bluejay_32
Originally Posted By Armada Master
We've heard grumblings that GM wants out of the Tahoe PPV business, because they aren't making that much money selling them to us at $35k vs. dressing them up & selling them to the general public for $50k+, now I am starting to believe it.

Ford on the other hand is ramping up police vehicle production so now we are getting our next order reluctantly from them (again). Only caveat is we did change our K9 units to non-hybrid Explorers instead.

Last time I was on a lot I didn't see one under 70k and that was before COVID and the chip shortage.

For what it's worth I've seen a ton of New York State Troopers lately and every single one has been a Charger. Don't now it they're V6s or V8s but that's all they have patrolling the 90 looking for speeders. Any town cars I've seen lately have been Exploriceptors in any part of New York. I can't remember the last time I saw a Tahoe. May have been the one that pulled me over early in COVID.


Thats interesting to me. I spent quite some time recently in NYC, and one of the things I noticed is just how many different vehicles they have doing government or police work. They make police cars out of anything there it seems, specifically, larger trucks and vans. Aside from these weird kinds of police vehicles, all I remember seeing in NYC were explorers and Impalas. Didnt see any Tahoes. Did not see any chargers, but I did not venture out of the city either. You'd think with the conditions of the life a police vehicle has in NYC it'd be the most reliable thing they can find. That's why I was a bit surprised to see so many impalas.


Money is bottom line when operating a fleet. Reliability doesn't mean much in the big cities as long as it's not some anomaly where it's so bad they can't complete their duty, which isn't likely from any of the major fleet offerings.
The big cities have the resources to maintain their own vehicles. That makes maintenance super incredibly cheap, relatively speaking.

For them, the biggest vehicle cost is depreciation of the vehicle. Purchase price vs resale price is the question. They'll buy anything as long as the numbers work in their favor. This is the biggest reason the Tahoe gained so much ground as soon as it was introduced, long before the CVPI was discontinued. The depreciation costs were far less.

Smaller towns that don't maintain their own vehicles will have a different view, perhaps prioritizing maintenance costs more. Even then, it seems there's not much of a difference between all of the available vehicles. You see a mix of everything being used out there. I'm sure the bidding process has a lot to do with that.
Posted by: bluejay_32

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/16/21 10:21 PM

Originally Posted By Stangstinger
Originally Posted By bluejay_32
Last time I was on a lot I didn't see one under 70k and that was before COVID and the chip shortage.

For what it's worth I've seen a ton of New York State Troopers lately and every single one has been a Charger. Don't now it they're V6s or V8s but that's all they have patrolling the 90 looking for speeders. Any town cars I've seen lately have been Exploriceptors in any part of New York. I can't remember the last time I saw a Tahoe. May have been the one that pulled me over early in COVID.


Thats interesting to me. I spent quite some time recently in NYC, and one of the things I noticed is just how many different vehicles they have doing government or police work. They make police cars out of anything there it seems, specifically, larger trucks and vans. Aside from these weird kinds of police vehicles, all I remember seeing in NYC were explorers and Impalas. Didnt see any Tahoes. Did not see any chargers, but I did not venture out of the city either. You'd think with the conditions of the life a police vehicle has in NYC it'd be the most reliable thing they can find. That's why I was a bit surprised to see so many impalas.

Poughkeepsie's as close as I'm ever going to get to New York City.
Posted by: Ponyguy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/17/21 12:13 AM

Originally Posted By bluejay_32
Poughkeepsie's as close as I'm ever going to get to New York City.


Chicago is about as close as I ever intend to get to Noo Yawk City... rolleyes
Posted by: bluejay_32

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/17/21 01:17 AM

Originally Posted By Ponyguy
Originally Posted By bluejay_32
Poughkeepsie's as close as I'm ever going to get to New York City.


Chicago is about as close as I ever intend to get to Noo Yawk City... rolleyes

Well I gotta go to Poughkeepsie tomorrow, so . . . spank





Guess I'm never gonna meet you.
Posted by: GM_Guy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/18/21 06:09 PM

Another thing going for the big city fleet is just that, an equally big fleet of pool cars. If a few are down for repair, no one hurts for a ride, revolving door of broken and repaired cars.
Posted by: RipWixomAssembly

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/19/21 08:31 PM

https://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=2911043 https://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=2911045 Two more for you all. Wonder how high these two are going to go. Probably decently high even though they both must have decent rust being the floor pan has had rust fixed on both. Lot# 2911043 doesn't have it listed but it's in the service records
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/19/21 11:57 PM

Originally Posted By Bellwestern80
Originally Posted By Dmblanch

Those are my thoughts anwyay. Now we wait for the poobahs to tell me I'm wrong on each and every count.



Nah, that's pretty on point.

The current going stuff besides the cam and lifters is cooling fans (which occasionally break apart enough to kill the radiator), water pumps, electric/hydraulic power steering pump, and the front end components.

They're quite tired by 70K and usually will have most of that stuff swapped by that time.

Do they drive nice new? Yes. Got power? Yes. Long term reliability? No.

The 5.7 cam/lifter issue is honestly the worst sticking point. I don't think I haven't heard one over 100K with a few thousand idle hours on it that doesn't rattle like a sumbitch on start-up.


Allegedly the V8 coupled to the AWD system is abusive to it and is why the AWD option is only now offered with the V6 engine. The AWD does get in the way of some easier front end part replacements on the RWD cars.


Ive said it before and I'll say it again- The amount of bad chargers at auction now is about the same ratio of junk Crown Vics back when they were mostly what made up auctions. Tahoes have the same cam problems Chargers do. Taurusceptors have other problems. The only plus about Crown Vics is they were cheaper to fix but that's how things go with newer cars. If a Crown Vic is in decent shape with no obvious signs of problems and doesn't go for a rip off price I'd have no problem buying one. For Chargers and any of the others even if they look to be ok they have to go for a good enough price that you aren't loosing money on them if they have issues and if you can do that get one because they are super fun to drive. Actually these days it's not too hard because greedy car lots are selling them for more then double the crazy auction prices.

The cam problem isn't an oiling issue it's defective roller lifters. Youd think that when they've been used in large numbers of cars for the past 30 years they'd have it figured out by now but it's a problem that a lot of newer vehicles are having.

There's no problem with AWD durability fuel mileage is the reason they moved it to the V6. AWD was still using the 5 speed transmission and AWD was a popular option. Move it to the V6 and they could finally put the newer transmission behind the hemi and steer people towards the V6 models at the same time.

Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/20/21 12:32 AM

Originally Posted By RipWixomAssembly
https://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=2911043 https://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=2911045 Two more for you all. Wonder how high these two are going to go. Probably decently high even though they both must have decent rust being the floor pan has had rust fixed on both. Lot# 2911043 doesn't have it listed but it's in the service records


The mileage kills them from climbing too high in price, but they do appear to be what the lister claims they are... solid daily drivers in good shape, will lots of work done recently (brakes, rotors, bearing, axles transmission etc) that would make them relatively trouble free for their age. It's amazing how many sets of tires these cars have gone through in their lives, basically at least 2 per year of life. Strange that they have rust underneath but no peeling paint.
Posted by: GM_Guy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/20/21 07:17 AM

Originally Posted By RipWixomAssembly
https://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=2911043 https://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=2911045 Two more for you all. Wonder how high these two are going to go. Probably decently high even though they both must have decent rust being the floor pan has had rust fixed on both. Lot# 2911043 doesn't have it listed but it's in the service records


Looking through the service records is interesting, in a way.
Started life getting fed 15w40, and around the 50k mark is getting 5w20, and back to 15w40 near 70k, and back to 5w20 a few oil changes later. That ought to make the oil ocd'ers twitch. =-)

And this note made me chuckle;
Quote:
( ADVISE DRIVER TO NOT USE A/C AND PARTS WONT WEAR OUT!!!!
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/20/21 12:09 PM

Originally Posted By 2007CrownVic

Ive said it before and I'll say it again- The amount of bad chargers at auction now is about the same ratio of junk Crown Vics back when they were mostly what made up auctions. Tahoes have the same cam problems Chargers do. Taurusceptors have other problems. The only plus about Crown Vics is they were cheaper to fix but that's how things go with newer cars. If a Crown Vic is in decent shape with no obvious signs of problems and doesn't go for a rip off price I'd have no problem buying one. For Chargers and any of the others even if they look to be ok they have to go for a good enough price that you aren't loosing money on them if they have issues and if you can do that get one because they are super fun to drive. Actually these days it's not too hard because greedy car lots are selling them for more then double the crazy auction prices.

The cam problem isn't an oiling issue it's defective roller lifters. Youd think that when they've been used in large numbers of cars for the past 30 years they'd have it figured out by now but it's a problem that a lot of newer vehicles are having.

There's no problem with AWD durability fuel mileage is the reason they moved it to the V6. AWD was still using the 5 speed transmission and AWD was a popular option. Move it to the V6 and they could finally put the newer transmission behind the hemi and steer people towards the V6 models at the same time.



While I disagree wholeheartedly with 2007CrownVic on both the relative quality of chargers versus crown Vics coming to auction and the source of the cam/lifter failure problem…. there are some things that we agree on. I agree that all the police vehicles which utilize a VVT engine (including the Tahoes and the Caprices) suffer from cam and lifters problems at very early ages. This argues in favor of something in the police method of using the vehicles that is hard on the cams, not to some metallurgical defect in the manufacture of the cars that is spread amongst different manufacturers.

As for what causes cam and lifter failure in Chargers, you don’t have to listen to either one of us, you can go straight to the Internet and weigh all of the many arguments in this long-running debate on all sides and make up your own mind. What all the theorists agree upon is the cost of the repair, which remains unchanged at around $4000 no matter what causes it. And yes it is cheaper if you do it yourself just as the Crown Vic intake manifold repair is proportionally cheaper if you do it yourself.

I cannot speak to the relative percentages shot-out Crown Vics hitting the auction market 10 years ago compared to the relative percentages of shot-out Chargers hitting the market now because I wasn’t shopping for either car at auction 10 years ago. I will have to take 2007Crownvics word for that. All I can go by is my own experience and what I am experiencing in my conversations with the many fleet managers with whom I have talked to regarding this issue. They all universally pine for the old days when they had crown vics in their fleets and at the same time they nurse the few remaining warhorse vics that are still running for as long as they possibly can because they love them and they give them no trouble. At the same time I’ve spoken to three Utah fleet managers this year alone who have told me they are sick of chargers and they are purging their entire fleet of them regardless of mileage, including the state of Utah’s entire highway patrol fleet.

Then there is the ultimate barometer that everyone should go by, meaning one’s own personal first-hand experience. I have owned 14 crown Victorias and Mercury Marquis that I bought at auction from police agencies. On those cars I have done no mechanical repairs to the vast majority of my fleet and on the few cars that I did have to repair the largest repairs were front wheel bearings and brakes on one car, a transmission flush and filter on a second car, blend door actuators on two more cars, and then your usual assortment of horn reconnects, window motors and door switches etc. on a half dozen other cars on other cars. that’s it… On 14 cars.

On the other hand all three chargers went straight from the seller to my auto shop for necessary repairs right out of the gate, two via triple AAA tows because they didn’t make it home on my drives from their local Utah sellers to my house. The two vsixes both had front end suspension issues averaging about $750 and the hemi is still in the shop with a seized AC compressor, cost tbd.

So I have managed to avoid the big repair bills in both cases probably because I am very conservative in the cars that I choose to bid on, but across-the-board the chargers cost me more money to get ready than the vics.
Posted by: RipWixomAssembly

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/20/21 03:20 PM

Originally Posted By GM_Guy
Originally Posted By RipWixomAssembly
https://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=2911043 https://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=2911045 Two more for you all. Wonder how high these two are going to go. Probably decently high even though they both must have decent rust being the floor pan has had rust fixed on both. Lot# 2911043 doesn't have it listed but it's in the service records


Looking through the service records is interesting, in a way.
Started life getting fed 15w40, and around the 50k mark is getting 5w20, and back to 15w40 near 70k, and back to 5w20 a few oil changes later. That ought to make the oil ocd'ers twitch. =-)

And this note made me chuckle;
Quote:
( ADVISE DRIVER TO NOT USE A/C AND PARTS WONT WEAR OUT!!!!

Lmao didn't pick that one out. But yeah the records are strange. Probably whatever oil they bought for the shop it was fed
Posted by: RipWixomAssembly

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/20/21 03:24 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Originally Posted By RipWixomAssembly
https://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=2911043 https://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=2911045 Two more for you all. Wonder how high these two are going to go. Probably decently high even though they both must have decent rust being the floor pan has had rust fixed on both. Lot# 2911043 doesn't have it listed but it's in the service records


The mileage kills them from climbing too high in price, but they do appear to be what the lister claims they are... solid daily drivers in good shape, will lots of work done recently (brakes, rotors, bearing, axles transmission etc) that would make them relatively trouble free for their age. It's amazing how many sets of tires these cars have gone through in their lives, basically at least 2 per year of life. Strange that they have rust underneath but no peeling paint.


Yeah I wouldn't mind getting one of them personally. I'm probably being over-paranoid about the floor pan thing
Posted by: RipWixomAssembly

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/20/21 04:38 PM

Guess it has had rust repair before other than the floorboard. But yeah somewhat odd it hasn't started peeling yet
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/21/21 02:14 AM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Originally Posted By 2007CrownVic

Ive said it before and I'll say it again- The amount of bad chargers at auction now is about the same ratio of junk Crown Vics back when they were mostly what made up auctions. Tahoes have the same cam problems Chargers do. Taurusceptors have other problems. The only plus about Crown Vics is they were cheaper to fix but that's how things go with newer cars. If a Crown Vic is in decent shape with no obvious signs of problems and doesn't go for a rip off price I'd have no problem buying one. For Chargers and any of the others even if they look to be ok they have to go for a good enough price that you aren't loosing money on them if they have issues and if you can do that get one because they are super fun to drive. Actually these days it's not too hard because greedy car lots are selling them for more then double the crazy auction prices.

The cam problem isn't an oiling issue it's defective roller lifters. Youd think that when they've been used in large numbers of cars for the past 30 years they'd have it figured out by now but it's a problem that a lot of newer vehicles are having.

There's no problem with AWD durability fuel mileage is the reason they moved it to the V6. AWD was still using the 5 speed transmission and AWD was a popular option. Move it to the V6 and they could finally put the newer transmission behind the hemi and steer people towards the V6 models at the same time.



While I disagree wholeheartedly with 2007CrownVic on both the relative quality of chargers versus crown Vics coming to auction and the source of the cam/lifter failure problem…. there are some things that we agree on. I agree that all the police vehicles which utilize a VVT engine (including the Tahoes and the Caprices) suffer from cam and lifters problems at very early ages. This argues in favor of something in the police method of using the vehicles that is hard on the cams, not to some metallurgical defect in the manufacture of the cars that is spread amongst different manufacturers.

As for what causes cam and lifter failure in Chargers, you don’t have to listen to either one of us, you can go straight to the Internet and weigh all of the many arguments in this long-running debate on all sides and make up your own mind. What all the theorists agree upon is the cost of the repair, which remains unchanged at around $4000 no matter what causes it. And yes it is cheaper if you do it yourself just as the Crown Vic intake manifold repair is proportionally cheaper if you do it yourself.

I cannot speak to the relative percentages shot-out Crown Vics hitting the auction market 10 years ago compared to the relative percentages of shot-out Chargers hitting the market now because I wasn’t shopping for either car at auction 10 years ago. I will have to take 2007Crownvics word for that. All I can go by is my own experience and what I am experiencing in my conversations with the many fleet managers with whom I have talked to regarding this issue. They all universally pine for the old days when they had crown vics in their fleets and at the same time they nurse the few remaining warhorse vics that are still running for as long as they possibly can because they love them and they give them no trouble. At the same time I’ve spoken to three Utah fleet managers this year alone who have told me they are sick of chargers and they are purging their entire fleet of them regardless of mileage, including the state of Utah’s entire highway patrol fleet.

Then there is the ultimate barometer that everyone should go by, meaning one’s own personal first-hand experience. I have owned 14 crown Victorias and Mercury Marquis that I bought at auction from police agencies. On those cars I have done no mechanical repairs to the vast majority of my fleet and on the few cars that I did have to repair the largest repairs were front wheel bearings and brakes on one car, a transmission flush and filter on a second car, blend door actuators on two more cars, and then your usual assortment of horn reconnects, window motors and door switches etc. on a half dozen other cars on other cars. that’s it… On 14 cars.

On the other hand all three chargers went straight from the seller to my auto shop for necessary repairs right out of the gate, two via triple AAA tows because they didn’t make it home on my drives from their local Utah sellers to my house. The two vsixes both had front end suspension issues averaging about $750 and the hemi is still in the shop with a seized AC compressor, cost tbd.

So I have managed to avoid the big repair bills in both cases probably because I am very conservative in the cars that I choose to bid on, but across-the-board the chargers cost me more money to get ready than the vics.


Cam failure is happening in the same models that don't see police use. But police use does push vehicles harder and make those problems become more aparent. The biggest problem I have with both Chrysler and GM with this is that it's a well known issue but they do very little to fix it. Actually that's not entirely true, the hemi roller lifters do have bigger rollers now but the problem seems more whatever inferior metal they are made of.

Crown vics for sure are the safer buy but they were also in a very unique situation that they dragged on far longer then they normally would have if they had any real competition so they had more then enough time to improve everything, not to mention they are still an older technology car so there is less to go wrong with them. Part of the reason fleet managers like them is because they are easy to fix and more durable but some are also biast because that's what they worked on for so long and for a lot of them that's all they ever worked on. Service can be neglected and the cars don't care. Then they get Chargers dumped on them that have all the problems that come with newer cars and they aren't used to dealing with that. Other Fleet managers hate newer Fords, it seems to depend on what they're running.

I am leary of buying Chargers or anything else for that matter compared to cvpi's. In most cases it's been some sort of body issue that makes me pass, a couple didn't sound right when they were running. It wasn't cam and it could have been nothing but I wasn't willing to take the chance. For some reason a lot of Tahoe's Ive looked at aren't running. Then the ones that are have trashed interiors or they were converted for some other use. Probably the biggest thing that keeps me away from Tauruses, other then being bland and not wanting to dish out money to service them is that most are white and still have peeling paint problems!!!! Even the non white ones peel now.
Posted by: RipWixomAssembly

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/21/21 06:58 PM

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=5973&acctid=453 Wonder what went on this Vic. Betting on the intake manifold
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/21/21 11:57 PM

One undeniable advantage the Chargers have over the Vics... they sell for MUCH more money at any age.

My 2005 P71 (Car 11) just sold for $3800. It was a tougher 3 week sale due to its 115k miles, which is higher than I like to sell them. Nothing wrong with it mechanically, very solid, I did nothing to it but grease the lower steering column. It only had peelformance white patches that I addressed with my rattle can secret sauce. I bought it for $1850, so I did fine, but still it was a slow seller.

Chargers, on the other hand, are easy sells to testosterone laden young men. Especially hemi chargers. They'll pay too much for them every time. This 2007 with 87000 miles that I just bought, and broke the serpentine driving it home on a seized AC compressor, will go for about $8500. Ain't no way I could ever get $8500 out of a 2007 Black and White P71. But I also had to pay $3550 for it.

I may not even have to repaint it from black and white, since it's legal in Utah to drive an Oreo. however the kind of knucklehead kid who would buy it like that shouldn't be allowed to drive it, and I'm a little torn about selling it that way.

2nd gen Chargers with the Cam/lifter problem sell for even more, even with the death tick. The state of Utah was selling off a half dozen of its 3 gen 2018 Chargers with over 110k miles AND with videos showing their death rattles and somehow they still managed to sell two of them for about $12k. I guess that's a "savings?" over the $18 to 20k that buyers were paying for the city of South Jordans 2018 fleet liquidation Chargers with only 20 to 40k miles on them. The other two V6 Chargers I had were also both quick and easy sells.

Curious, because police chargers are SUPER cheap and tinny feeling inside. But it doesn't matter.
Posted by: Armada Master

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/22/21 09:22 AM

Originally Posted By Armada Master
Originally Posted By av8or1
Originally Posted By Armada Master
For contrast this truck that's very similiar to the one I just bought Saturday for $4600 sold a couple months back for over $7k:

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=1186&acctid=1731

Yeah but in TEXAS the truck "is King" as the saying goes. The fella from whom we purchased The 5-O does the auction-fix-resell thing for a living and is a dealer. He has always told me that trucks are his staple because he can't buy enough of them and because they never sit long on his lot. Heck one of the last times I was out his way he had a couple of basket cases that were 70s vintage trucks. Both were purchased by folk who purportedly were planning on restoring them. 'Point being that even those critters sold within a week. So I'm not surprised that you were able to flip that GovDeals truck like you were. Congratulations on a good result! Do you flip too, as in being a dealer?


That's not my Govdeals truck, that was just a similiar one to what I purchased from Lemons Auctioneers/Fort Bend County a couple weeks ago. I try & flip a few a year as an individual, but with limited access to only public auctions which have gone mostly online, I only wind up getting to do a couple a year these days at best.


I'm bumping this truck I bought back up to the top for a moment to highlight the "hidden" surprises involved with auction buying.

After 25 years of gov't vehicle purchasing, I was forced to do a bonded title on this truck due to a 'registration only' allegedly taken out against it in 2014. The county I bought it from even called Austin trying to get it removed since it was obviously erroneous but the State refused. Of course, the State had no problem continuing to take renewals on it for 6 years after. Anyhoo, that put me at an increased price on TT&L on a now devalued truck (due to title) that I'm probably going to HAVE to keep instead of sell.

Add to that failing calipers on the rear from 'sit-itus" (as I call it) & the 9 year old tires I discovered on the truck, I'm now substantially more invested in a truck I essentially am going to have to be married to for three years until the bonded title clears to a regular title.

Costs breakdown:
Purchase price: $4600
TT&L (bonded): $600
Tires: $600
Brake repairs: $200

That puts me $6k into a truck I cannot reasonably sell because I'd have to adjust the price for the bonded title even if I found a brave enough buyer. Retail on the truck with a clear title I'd place at about $7500 (post-COVID pricing). If it was pre-COVID, I'd really be in trouble because I'd put the truck at about $6k resale value which is what I have in it or my "breakeven" point. Of course had I been buying it "pre-COVID", I'd have stopped the bid at $3500.

I've never lost money on a flipping cars but I've gotten close once or twice, this one is turning into one of those times.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/22/21 02:58 PM

I've seen those "untitled" vehicles a couple of times during my regular hunts, I guess some states don't require registrations or titling if the vehicle is state owned. They always seemed funny to me, so I avoided them.

Here's a few other categories of auction vehicles I avoid.
  • Anything that has been re-poed by the holding agency and is being sold with "bill of sale" only.
  • Any California vehicle with back-due registration fees which they insist must be paid to the state before the state would release the title. I did that once, with a Ferrari, it took me about a year before I pried the thing loose from California for a new Utah title.
  • Any branded title of any kind from any state. Although, I have seen branded out-of-state titles turn into "clear" titles in Utah, I don't know how this magic trick is achieved and they'll still show up on Carfax as having once been branded. Branded titles just throws off the math too much to gamble around with.

I once bought a motorcycle with a "duplicate" title. Big mistake. The scam was this, the owner applied for a duplicate title even though he hadn't lost the original, when it arrived he immediately went to a payday lender and got a title loan on the bike surrendering the original, then he immediately put the bike for sale, selling it to me with the duplicate. Then he took the cash from the lender and the case from me and skeedaddled. When I submitted the duplicate title for a transfer to my name, I was informed of the lien and uncovered the con. I had to sell the bike for parts only and fortunately got within a hundred dollars of what I paid for it.

Trucks and Vans are a special thorn in my side at auction. I'd LOVE to buy them and I never ever win the auctions I try for. Why not? Because the sell at auction for too much money. Basically I have to pay no more than 50% of expected retail sales price for a vehicle at auction for it to be worth the effort. Much more than that and it doesn't take much to push the car into break even territory. And trucks/vans at recent auction all sell for too much beyond that 50% target to be comfortable, as your example so aptly indicates.

Here's some of my recent examples, which I'll try to supply all the niggling costs to give you a fuller picture.

2005 P71, 115 k miles, cost $1875, $187 auction fees, $200 transport costs. It had paint issues which I paid maybe $50 in cans of spray primer, paint, and clearcoat. $40 in window switches. $5 in rubber plugs for antenna holes. Thought I'd have to change the lower steering column, and bought one (later resold), but grease fixed the stiffness. Installed a police center console and spare tire taken from a junked vehicle, no cost. Sold for $3800.

So I made about $1400, but you can see how repairs can creep up on you.

I bought this 2007 Charger for $3550 and had to pay fees and taxes on it, so I'm at $4000 and change. $35 in transport costs (not counting free AAA tow) and I'll face about $700 in upcoming AC fixes. Spent $65 on 4 stereo speakers, and would like to put floormats in it. If I reconnect the strobe lights for movie use, that's another $200, but movie rentals are +$100 a day. If I paint the white parts black, that's about $1200, so I may not do it because expected sales price is about $8500.

And the deal with trucks/vans out here in the West is that they just never ever sell for low enough to make the math work. Armada's cited example is exactly what I see all the time. I search them, follow them, and see them SOAR past my "get out" points with many days left in every auction.

I'd really like to by a little "camperlife" van of the type that is so popular with hipsters right now and convert it myself. Can't do it because all these little Astro AWD and Transit Connects that are 10 to 20 years old are still selling for $8-$10K raw, pre-conversion. So I never come close to winning those auctions.
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/22/21 11:50 PM

What I don't understand about Chargers is why people are paying about as much retail for vomet comets as regular hemi chargers which are usually a lot nicer go for. And unlike Crown Vics the only real give away on the exterior of being a police car is the rims and keylock for the trunk. Put plain steel rims on a normal white, siliver, blue etc.. Charger and you're pretty much there.
Posted by: Ponyguy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/23/21 12:11 AM

I was looking at the dealership used vehicles for sale... and I was shocked at the stuff they had, and the prices they were asking...

There's a nicely decked-out 5 year-old F-350 F-350 Diesel SuperCrew with 67k on the odometer... they're asking about $70k for it... Most everything else decent is priced in the $30-40K range... even with "out of warranty" sort of miles (36k+) on them...
Posted by: Armada Master

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/23/21 08:38 AM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Basically I have to pay no more than 50% of expected retail sales price for a vehicle at auction for it to be worth the effort. Much more than that and it doesn't take much to push the car into break even territory. And trucks/vans at recent auction all sell for too much beyond that 50% target to be comfortable, as your example so aptly indicates.


That's always been my rule of thumb as well, 50%.

I made the exception on this truck because of the inflated market & I was on the fence about keeping it & replacing my older 89 C1500 if this truck turned out to be a runner than I will "drive" any additional costs back out of it keeping it. Unfortunately the title fiasco pushes me off the fence into keeping it or else & selling my older, proven truck to recoup my money there instead.

Back to your 50% deal, prime example was a couple of Tauruses I bought pre-COVID & flipped. A 2001 & 2006, bought around 80k miles, I bought for $1500 each & quickly flipped for $3k. And I still wound up an extra $500 into them for minor repairs & TT&L, but I made a quick $1k off of each with minimal effort.
Posted by: Stangstinger

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/23/21 07:13 PM

Originally Posted By 2007CrownVic


Cam failure is happening in the same models that don't see police use. But police use does push vehicles harder and make those problems become more aparent. The biggest problem I have with both Chrysler and GM with this is that it's a well known issue but they do very little to fix it. Actually that's not entirely true, the hemi roller lifters do have bigger rollers now but the problem seems more whatever inferior metal they are made of.

Crown vics for sure are the safer buy but they were also in a very unique situation that they dragged on far longer then they normally would have if they had any real competition so they had more then enough time to improve everything, not to mention they are still an older technology car so there is less to go wrong with them. Part of the reason fleet managers like them is because they are easy to fix and more durable but some are also biast because that's what they worked on for so long and for a lot of them that's all they ever worked on. Service can be neglected and the cars don't care. Then they get Chargers dumped on them that have all the problems that come with newer cars and they aren't used to dealing with that. Other Fleet managers hate newer Fords, it seems to depend on what they're running.

I am leary of buying Chargers or anything else for that matter compared to cvpi's. In most cases it's been some sort of body issue that makes me pass, a couple didn't sound right when they were running. It wasn't cam and it could have been nothing but I wasn't willing to take the chance. For some reason a lot of Tahoe's Ive looked at aren't running. Then the ones that are have trashed interiors or they were converted for some other use. Probably the biggest thing that keeps me away from Tauruses, other then being bland and not wanting to dish out money to service them is that most are white and still have peeling paint problems!!!! Even the non white ones peel now.


For these reasons I too am leery with chargers. The Vics just have so much more surety. I've really only ever taken a loss on one. Their problems, with the few they have, can easily be anticipated, spotted, and fixed for the most part. Luckily they are pretty trouble free and their inherent flaws are not too catastrophic, all things considered. With the Charger, there are so many unknowns. With a lot of the issues, especially on the newer ones, you're looking at pretty hefty repair prices. This is even for routine maintenance and wear items. They just cost more to repair and maintain. But to offset this ......

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
One undeniable advantage the Chargers have over the Vics... they sell for MUCH more money at any age.

My 2005 P71 (Car 11) just sold for $3800. It was a tougher 3 week sale due to its 115k miles, which is higher than I like to sell them. Nothing wrong with it mechanically, very solid, I did nothing to it but grease the lower steering column. It only had peelformance white patches that I addressed with my rattle can secret sauce. I bought it for $1850, so I did fine, but still it was a slow seller.

Chargers, on the other hand, are easy sells to testosterone laden young men. Especially hemi chargers. They'll pay too much for them every time. This 2007 with 87000 miles that I just bought, and broke the serpentine driving it home on a seized AC compressor, will go for about $8500. Ain't no way I could ever get $8500 out of a 2007 Black and White P71. But I also had to pay $3550 for it.

I may not even have to repaint it from black and white, since it's legal in Utah to drive an Oreo. however the kind of knucklehead kid who would buy it like that shouldn't be allowed to drive it, and I'm a little torn about selling it that way.

2nd gen Chargers with the Cam/lifter problem sell for even more, even with the death tick. The state of Utah was selling off a half dozen of its 3 gen 2018 Chargers with over 110k miles AND with videos showing their death rattles and somehow they still managed to sell two of them for about $12k. I guess that's a "savings?" over the $18 to 20k that buyers were paying for the city of South Jordans 2018 fleet liquidation Chargers with only 20 to 40k miles on them. The other two V6 Chargers I had were also both quick and easy sells.

Curious, because police chargers are SUPER cheap and tinny feeling inside. But it doesn't matter.


... exactly as dmblanch says, they go for so much more. The newest, lowest mile example of a vic for sale in my area likely still would go for less than a 200k+ beat old v6 charger. You get into the Hemis, of any year, and the prices just skyrocket simply due to having a Hemi. The younger guys out there will happily overpay for a hemi charger. This has been the case in my area for the last 10+ years. It doesnt even matter if they have problems, are beat to piss, or aren't running. In every instance they sell for way more than theyre worth. The chargers, for all the expensive costs they may incur, WILL sell for more. Compared to crown Vics, they cost more at auction, require a higher investment to get up to snuff, have more expensive potential problems, and will sell for much more. In many cases this extremely high resale is still enough to cover any costs incurred. A vic requiring 1 massive repair will likely cause you to break even or lose money. A charger requiring multiple big repairs can still deliver a profit if you bought in cheap enough. Flipping chargers is a like flipping Vics, but with higher stakes. The initial cost to buy is higher, costs to repair are higher, but for a lot more resale. It can still be worth it if you get in low enough. It just is not as safe as buying Vics for 1-2k at auction knowing you can get 3-4k for them (despite those days coming to an end with the crazy prices lately).
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 11/29/21 06:19 PM

Well, I just got my 07 Hemi charger back from the shop less $800 for the new AC compressor, recharge and serpentine belt!

So I'm batting a thousand for all three of the cop Chargers I've bought for flipping purposes. All three have required OVER $700 in mechanical repairs to be roadworthy. And of the 14 Panthers I've bought for the same purposes, the highest mechanical repair I spent on 1 of them was about $340 in transmission flush and filter. A couple of others needed less than $200 in simple parts and most needed nothing at all.

So this Charger cost me $3550, just over $4k with fees, plus $800 for AC fixes and $60 in speakers. Expect to get $8 to 8.5k out of it, but that margin is shrinking daily as Armada can appreciate.
Posted by: Armada Master

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 12/06/21 09:50 AM

Originally Posted By Stangstinger
Originally Posted By bluejay_32
Originally Posted By Armada Master
We've heard grumblings that GM wants out of the Tahoe PPV business, because they aren't making that much money selling them to us at $35k vs. dressing them up & selling them to the general public for $50k+, now I am starting to believe it.

Ford on the other hand is ramping up police vehicle production so now we are getting our next order reluctantly from them (again). Only caveat is we did change our K9 units to non-hybrid Explorers instead.

Last time I was on a lot I didn't see one under 70k and that was before COVID and the chip shortage.

For what it's worth I've seen a ton of New York State Troopers lately and every single one has been a Charger. Don't now it they're V6s or V8s but that's all they have patrolling the 90 looking for speeders. Any town cars I've seen lately have been Exploriceptors in any part of New York. I can't remember the last time I saw a Tahoe. May have been the one that pulled me over early in COVID.


Thats interesting to me. I spent quite some time recently in NYC, and one of the things I noticed is just how many different vehicles they have doing government or police work. They make police cars out of anything there it seems, specifically, larger trucks and vans. Aside from these weird kinds of police vehicles, all I remember seeing in NYC were explorers and Impalas. Didnt see any Tahoes. Did not see any chargers, but I did not venture out of the city either. You'd think with the conditions of the life a police vehicle has in NYC it'd be the most reliable thing they can find. That's why I was a bit surprised to see so many impalas.


Around here, it's a mix of about 50% police Explorers, the other 50% is an even mix of Tahoes & Chargers. It used to be about 90% CVPI. Ford lost the livery service here when they discontinued the Panther platform. Dodge snagged it for several years with the Caravan, GM got the black car service with the Suburban (after the Town Cars were gone), now Toyota is getting it with the Sienna since Dodge stupidly discontinued their minivan.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 01/08/22 09:48 PM

Even through the winter, even with repeat covid cycles, it looks like used Vic prices are staying up there at the auctions. Especially for the low mileage vehicles.

Here's very nice, but very police'ed out P71 with cage, pushbar, window bars and prisoner seat in Tennessee that's already over $8000 with many days to go on the auction. Only 41,000 miles.

Tennessee P71



The seller spent money to have it detailed and on this car that was a very smart choice. Probably raised the price a grand by doing so.

What this is telling me is that the base price for a low mileage car (<$75k miles) is about $2000 more than a good mileage car (75k to @110k) and that the prices then fall off the table for still good, but "higher", mileage cars (120k to 145k). Prices above that are not worth following. The car may still be really good, but the marketplace won't recognize it.

I have a hard time accepting this big premium for the lower mileage cars because I know that the cheaper cars are going to drive just as well, I don't think P71's will ever have collector value, and I'm never going to dump more money into them than I get back out. But the reality is showing me that spending $3 to $4000 at auction for a low mileage Vic is not money wasted.



Posted by: Ponyguy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 01/09/22 12:41 AM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Even through the winter, even with repeat covid cycles, it looks like used Vic prices are staying up there at the auctions. Especially for the low mileage vehicles.


Ain't this the truth! And it's not just Vics... it's every vehicle... My Nephew is trying to buy a van for his plumbing business... every dealer wants $5-$6K over Monroney... I think Rick finally settled for a Dodge Ram.

I've been looking for a replacement for my 2019 Fusion that was wrecked a week ago...

Today, they're asking about $6000 more for the identical car that I bought two years ago next week.

I paid $20k for my 2019 Fusion Energie, and an identical 2019 Fusion Energie is listed at $26k this afternoon.

OMG...
Posted by: GM_Guy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 01/09/22 07:59 AM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch

I have a hard time accepting this big premium for the lower mileage cars because I know that the cheaper cars are going to drive just as well, I don't think P71's will ever have collector value, and I'm never going to dump more money into them than I get back out. But the reality is showing me that spending $3 to $4000 at auction for a low mileage Vic is not money wasted.


For someone like me who buys a car and keeps it forever, I can stomach a slightly higher price for a lower mileage car as I know what I'm buying isn't going to give me much of any trouble for the decades I will be owning it.

And you are right, no matter what the fanbois say, a panther platform is NOT a collector car. It'll be a curiosity car years down the road, it'll evolve to the next batch of old cars people buy that fall into what today people are buying by way of affordable older 60's and 70's cars that we considered undesirable disposable cars back then (4 door dodge darts, 4 door novas, well, 4 door anything, or something with a 6 cylinder) those cars are only getting love because they don't cost as much as what a 340 dodge dart would command, or a factory big block nova etc.) Panthers will be a car somebody likes because it has a full frame, and is a car that they can have a v8 in and it won't cost them a fortune to buy compared to other more performance oriented cars of the(this) era.


Originally Posted By Ponyguy

Ain't this the truth! And it's not just Vics... it's every vehicle... My Nephew is trying to buy a van for his plumbing business... every dealer wants $5-$6K over Monroney... I think Rick finally settled for a Dodge Ram.

I've been looking for a replacement for my 2019 Fusion that was wrecked a week ago...

Today, they're asking about $6000 more for the identical car that I bought two years ago next week.

I paid $20k for my 2019 Fusion Energie, and an identical 2019 Fusion Energie is listed at $26k this afternoon.

OMG...


Yeah, the overall market is going to be screwed for some time. If you need a car relatively fast and not overpaying you got to expand in makes and models you would never otherwise consider, or get further out to dealers who are not putting ridiculous market adjustments on vehicles. Just read locally, dealers are buying used cars off of kijiji (ie: craigslist) to get used car inventory. That ain't helping used car prices either.

Has your insurance company given you a value yet they will pay? I've read of some other folks getting far more than they expected to recieve on older vehicles due to the crazy market prices. (and that'll hurt our insurance rates going forward, hell of a catch-22).
Posted by: RipWixomAssembly

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 01/11/22 02:22 PM

https://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=2911046 Another auction car from the city of Lexington. Curious how high it will end up going. No clue what that is under the door sill plate.


Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 01/11/22 06:40 PM

For it's mileage, that's not one half bad car. Paint's good, Interior's good. As a keeper for daily driving, it'd be fine.

Sadly the mileage damns it for flipping purposes. It's a $1500 to $2000 car at auction in my book, but I'll bet it doesn't have much rust. May go to $2200 or so in this market, but that's too much.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 01/12/22 08:46 PM

Here's a pretty good 2003 P73 with extremely low miles in Atlanta for you east coasters, but it's probably going to go for over $4k.

Gold P73 with 35k miles

Posted by: Tenevic_P71

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 01/13/22 12:27 PM

Wow that P73 just closed this morning for $6300 after fees. Ridiculous.
This is a nice looking SAP in North Carolina. Looks very clean, description says it was an admin car. Sitting at $3k with one day to go. How high you think for this?


https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=83&acctid=3947
Posted by: 2011LX

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 01/13/22 01:34 PM

$6300 for a clean car if any kind isn't that ridiculous anymore.

If you think that's ridiculous, take a look at what clapped out pickups are selling for...

Now is the wrong time to be in the car business if you don't have a stomach to ride this rollercoaster.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 01/13/22 04:46 PM

That’s a fine looking white SAP, nearly identical to the two I bought at auction in the spring of last year from the city of Ogden Utah, with the same miles on it. one I got for 2100 and the other I got for 2300 which I thought at the time was a little bit on the high side. Now it seems that they weren't high at all. I flipped them both very quickly for 4100 and 4300.

That car is going to sell at auction for between 4500 and 5k, would be my guess. It won't go quite as high as the sub-75k mileage cars seem to go, but it won't be overlooked.
Posted by: slowlane

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 01/14/22 04:37 PM

Originally Posted By 2011LX

If you think that's ridiculous, take a look at what clapped out pickups are selling for...


Yeah a customer came into the shop a month or so ago for an oil change on a crusty 2002-ish Chevy 1500 he just bought. He was convinced he stole it for only $5000. Whatever. Trucks go for stupid money around here. Glad I'm not a truck guy and got the Mercury back when I did.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 01/15/22 02:40 AM

That NC SAP sold for $4300 including fees, not quite as high as I thought, which is probably indicative of the drop-off affecting cars that have over 100k miles

Here's another one for your consideration, a very normal white SAP P71 in Colorado with lots of roof antenna stubs, push bar cutouts, and other indicators of typical patrol usage, but only 57K miles, which according to the algorithm should push it towards $5k.
p71 57k miles
Posted by: RipWixomAssembly

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 01/15/22 05:10 PM

Originally Posted By Dmblanch
For it's mileage, that's not one half bad car. Paint's good, Interior's good. As a keeper for daily driving, it'd be fine.

Sadly the mileage damns it for flipping purposes. It's a $1500 to $2000 car at auction in my book, but I'll bet it doesn't have much rust. May go to $2200 or so in this market, but that's too much.


Yeah reading the records I think it had a repaint. I'm hoping that's just dirt in the door jamb and not rust. Never seen a panther rust that way though. Knock on wood it's staying quite low but typically they pick up closer to the end.
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 01/16/22 03:05 PM

After looking at it again, and reading all the service records, I give it a thumbs up for buying. The fact that it's had a repaint is a GOOD thing, took care of the peelformance white issue that otherwise would be present. And it's had an instrument cluster replacement taking care of the notorious dim OD issue on those 2008's. Good set of tires, good ac compressor, ALL SERVICE RECORDS, an interior that is far less sweaty than 90% of the P71's I follow. What's not to like.

Only downside is original transmission at 150k miles. I don't think that's significant rust, but I note that two of its sister vehicles currently for sale, have visible rust problems or rust disclosures. If you could use a daily driver, I'll bet you can get a ton of miles out of it if it stays under $2k. It not, there's another lower mileage one coming up from the same seller in two additional days.
Posted by: 2007CrownVic

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 01/17/22 02:50 PM

Originally Posted By GM_Guy


And you are right, no matter what the fanbois say, a panther platform is NOT a collector car. It'll be a curiosity car years down the road, it'll evolve to the next batch of old cars people buy that fall into what today people are buying by way of affordable older 60's and 70's cars that we considered undesirable disposable cars back then (4 door dodge darts, 4 door novas, well, 4 door anything, or something with a 6 cylinder) those cars are only getting love because they don't cost as much as what a 340 dodge dart would command, or a factory big block nova etc.) Panthers will be a car somebody likes because it has a full frame, and is a car that they can have a v8 in and it won't cost them a fortune to buy compared to other more performance oriented cars of the(this) era.



Only time will tell. I'm not guessing either way but low mileage good condition ones will always be worth something. They'll never be at muscle car prices but look at the 60s and 70s police cars. They were also looked at as disposable and tons around but good ones are up in the 5 figure range and go for a lot more then your typical 4 door cars of the same era do. Even good 80s Caprice and Diplomat police cars have been going for high prices for a while now for what they are.
Posted by: hot__box

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 01/17/22 09:27 PM

Originally Posted By GM_Guy
And you are right, no matter what the fanbois say, a panther platform is NOT a collector car. It'll be a curiosity car years down the road, it'll evolve to the next batch of old cars people buy that fall into what today people are buying by way of affordable older 60's and 70's cars that we considered undesirable disposable cars back then


Sigh. I vehemently disagree. It’s a matter of perception, and call me a fanboi, so what? I’ll admit my bias. Consider this, Those Dodge Darts you refer to aren’t the piece of Americana that panther platform cars are. Look at any photograph of a Manhattan street from 1992-2015ish and you will see a flood of panthers, and to a lesser extent, Caprices from the 90’s.

Virtually any form of visual media over that 20 year period will contain a panther in it, wether as a taxi, cop car, mob boss car, whatever. That adds to the vehicles’ appeal, being such an icon. And yes, even vehicles considered “throwaways” when new sometimes get some love years down the road, as the aforementioned Dart. However, that’s usually a cult following or so on and so forth. And yes, rare does not equal valuable. I’m not implying that.

Ya know, I’ve never understood the seemingly popular notion, here of all places, that panther platform cars have reached a plateau of appeal and will continue to be throwaways until the last car in the bone yard is picked dry. I believe that’s not the case, mark my words.

So, what is the definition of a “collector car” exactly ? In 1969, that coveted ‘57 Bel Air was nothing more than a clunker, probably sold for $300 after sitting under a tree for 2 years. Cars from the 70’s are just now having their resurgence, and cars from the 80’s will be the next. (Followed by virtually every other period of cars, so on and so forth) Interest in cars fade, yes — and panthers are now at the decline of their interest, yes.. However, I do believe that in 20/30/40 years from now, there will be a new found interest in the platform, and those of us lucky enough to hold on to these cars will have something special.. yes, even the “vomit comets”.
Posted by: 2011LX

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 01/18/22 03:09 PM

Only specific cars from every era became collectible. Not all of them.

Not many care about collecting Checker cabs, which the panther platform is essentially a modern version of. The restoration business for Dodge Polaras, 4 door Biscaynes, Galaxies, etc aren't exactly booming either, and we are likely approaching the peak of collectability for those cars as people who are nostalgic about them continue to age.
Posted by: GM_Guy

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 01/18/22 04:00 PM

Thats all we can do is see where it goes. Who guessed that 60s muscle cars would at some
point demand 6 figure asking prices.
-
As for panthers, I appreciate the car for what it is, but I don't see it as a car that should (it could) demand luxury car prices. I don't even consider my square anything special, but people pay stupid money for them, like the panther, it was built by the millions and is a work vehicle. I year round daily drive my square, it sits outside 24/7 and see's salt and snow. Its a truck, doing truck stuff. Not something that should be hidden away becuase it is a "collector".
Posted by: Dmblanch

Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices - 01/18/22 11:49 PM

Here's the main ding against the Panther becoming a collector car. It wasn't popular in its day, except with police and livery companies, and today its cult following is solely based on the fact that we've all recognized that it represents great value for the money. Not because of cool styling or freaky performance. It's great because it's hardy, tough and above all cheap for what you get.

If it were to become not so cheap, then what you've got is less special.

I compare it to its GM sister sedans from the Oughts: the Buicks, Pontiacs, and Chevies with the 3800 Series III engines. Again, not loved in their day, again didn't sell real well, but today gearheads are gaga over their reliable hardy engines and value for the money.

But is anyone going to collect an 07 Park Avenue twenty years from now? Maybe the supercharged SS models, but little else.

And like it or not, we may all be facing electric car obsolescence by the time these cats hit collectible age. Ya wanna know how much film 35mm Canons and Nikons are worth in today's digital age? Something, but not big bucks. Ask you sister how much her giant collection of Disney VHS tapes are worth now, the ones she had to spend $49 on before Disney "locked them back up in the vault".

When the value for the $ disappears, so do I.