A long awaited mild performance build

I’ve said since sometime in 2010 that I wanted to do a PI headswap (talked about a 5.4 swap too). But, I never got ambitious enough to tear apart a perfectly functioning car to do it… not when there are so many other projects to deal with. A few weeks ago my car told me it’s time. Must have been some sort of cry for attention.

It started knocking/rattling while I was backing out the driveway and needed to be revved up to about 1200rpm just to stay running. Before I had it back in the garage and shut off I was already pretty sure that I’d be pulling the engine apart. Removing a valve cover and having valvetrain parts fall to the floor confirmed it.







No doubt the valve spring broke allowing the valve to fall into the cylinder and make all the racket. During the last few seconds I had it running to maneuver it into the back of garage to be laid up for a while, the rattling changed sound… like it became multiple pieces instead of one. My guess is that the valve was still in the guide until then, and the additional sound was when the valve guide broke and allowed the valve to get sideways in the intake port and start getting hammered into the bent shape it is now. Upon disassembly I found valve guide pieces in the intake manifold.





So here it sits on an engine stand.





Question is… where to go with this build? My intent had always been to keep the bottom end and build a mild bolt-on PI headswapped 4.6, with a goal of about 300 flywheel hp. I figured that the pi headswap and compression bump would be good for 270ish, and that a BBK throttle body/plenum, underdrive pullies, high flow cats and a tune would be around 290hp with a pretty small budget. Add a set mild cams to it and 300hp should be no problem, but with a significantly larger price tag.

What would you do with a budget limit of around 4k? Don't say forced induction-- I'm fine with being slow.

P.S.
For sale: (20) ford 4.6L head bolts. Only torqued once.

Well from the looks of it, you need a new pistion. im sure you can find used NPI pistions. And do the PI swap. Or get an NPI short block. I sure most will say just get a PI block, but that defeats the perpous of the compression bump. Unless you can find a cheap 4v short block. Then you'll get 12:1 compression with a PI head and possibly an aluminum block.

Also, Whats the blue car under the tarp? It looks like a 66 olds or related GM product.

^^^ He said it perfectly

Is that a Corvette C3 Stingray ?

I'd boost it:) Trick flow heads and some big ass cams would be pretty sweet, and in your budget. I think the piston might be fine, but you would need to clean it up and examine it closely.

The piston is really battered on top although that shouldn’t affect its function. Regardless, I will replace it so I don't have to worry about it. My concern is the cylinder wall. It looks quite good considering what happened; there are only two little scratches just below the deck… I’ve seen bores that didn’t eat a valve look a lot worse. But even if the wall and the piston are fine, it’s still a 170k engine. It was running fine, not burning oil and had no lack of compression, but it still seems crazy to do anything to it without getting some proper measuring and machine work done.

Trick flow heads and cams only fit in the budget if I ignore all the other things I need. My cats were original and will be replaced, and I’m going to delete the P71 engine oil cooler while I have everything apart. I’ll need a new intake manifold, all gaskets, head bolts, timing components, fluids… suddenly a lot of that 4k budget is already spoken for.

Here’s an incomplete parts list. Sorry if I’m way off on any of the estimated prices.

Used PI Heads $800.00
Cams $600.00
Head Bolts $50.00
Felpro Gasket Kit $250.00
Water Pump $50.00
Intake Manifold $214.99
Pistons $150.00
Piston Rings $50.00
Underdrive Pulleys $239.95
Exhaust Manifold Gaskets $19.95
Downpipes (Cats) $479.90
Throttle body and plenum $269.00
Tune $100.00
Heater return tube
Replacement flywheel $200.00
Clutch $200.00
Civilian Oil Filter Adapter $110.00
Civilian lower coolant hose $30.00
Timing Chains and Tensioners $221.99

Coolant, Oil, PS fluid, trans fluid $120.00
Block bore/hone $250.00


Total: $4,405.78

Bond, good job placing the Olds from just a taillight! You’re correct, it’s a 1966 F-85 Deluxe. And Hassan, the corvette in the background is a ‘72. The Olds is in great shape, but the corvette is a disaster. It runs and drives but virtually nothing else works. It needs a body-off restoration, hence my small budget for the Crown Victoria. No matter how much time and money I dump into the Crown Vic, it will still be a $2000 dollar car that (almost) no one loves but me. Time and money put into the corvette will have a much better return… and there are more projects waiting after it.

Thought so. My dad is a huge Oldsmobile nut so it rubbed off on me. We have a 68 442 holiday coupe we are restoring. Its been in the family for 30 years.

800 for PI heads seems a little high. They where in production from 99-14. Hit up some of the major mustang sites or craigslist, you'll find them all day long for under 400.

If you have to get the blocked worked, such as boring it out or honing it, compare it the cost to a cheap 4v short block. Because if you end up needing to punch out even .010 over you'll need new pistons. The 100lbs weight saving from the aluminum block alone will make it feel like a whole new car. Plus 12:1 compression with stock PI heads VS around 10.5:1 with just the normal PI swap. Its something to think about.

I must apologize, because this build and this thread are taking a much less “modular high performance” turn. I was able to get a 2004 PI engine from a Grand Marquis very cheap, which I intended to strip for parts for the PI headswap. But if I set my non-PI block aside and use the complete PI engine I can save the cost of head bolts, head gaskets, intake manifold gaskets, boring/honing the non-PI block, new pistons, rod bolts and maybe more I’m not thinking of. I really want the compression bump of a PI headswap, but that’s a whole lot of dollars for an extra 10hp. For less money I can throw cams in the PI engine and get more performance (however, I’m going to pocket the savings for now.) I also need to keep in mind that the rest of the car is a rust infected heap that doesn’t really merit a really serious engine build. Much more power will probably twist my rusty frame into a pretzel. This car will get restored someday, and then will be the time to put more money into a better engine build.

Trouble is, I did my homework on a PI headswap. With the change of plan to a whole PI engine, I have a handful of questions about what parts from the NPI engine I keep, and what from the PI engine I use. I’m still getting my sh** together and trying to answer some of those for myself before I post it all here.

Bond, It's a non-issue now since I'm going to use a complete PI engine but I'm curious... would I want the 12:1 compression in a street car? I thought 10.5 or 11 was about the limit for readily available 93 octane.

Right now I have the PI engine (an ’04) stripped down to the longblock plus the intake manifold and exhaust manifolds. All the parts removed from the NPI engine (a ’97) are spread out on the bench ready to be installed, but with many of the components I question which engine I should use the parts from:

Timing Cover: The ’04 cover lacks the hole to mount the passenger side coil pack, so it seems I should use the ’97 timing cover. Is there any reason that won’t work? The ’04 cover would also mean a different tensioner/idler layout, but I don’t think that makes any difference.

Crank trigger wheel: The crank position sensor looks exactly the same, but the trigger wheel is clearly different. Any reason to use one over the other?

EGR: On my ’97 engine the egr tube comes off the passenger side manifold and up to the plenum. On the ’04 engine it comes from the driver side manifold. I prefer to use the manifolds and tube from the ’04 because it saves me the trouble of swapping and the risk of breaking studs. With all other EGR related parts, I assume that I should use the ’97 parts because it ensures that my ’97 PCM and wiring harness will be entirely compatible. So, is there anything wrong with that plan?

Knock Sensors: Those two wires running into the valley are knock sensors right? I just leave those unplugged and forget about them?

Intake Manifold: The ’97 NPI intake has two sensors on the front coolant crossover, while the ’04 PI intake has only one. This will leave one plug of my ’97 harness with nowhere to plug in…

Plenum and Throttle Body: I plan to use the one off the ’97 so all the vacuum hoses line up.

Water Pump: I believe I need to use the ’97 water pump because it mounts the fan. The ’04 water pump does not accommodate the cooling fan.

Valve Covers: My ’04 PI engine had damaged valve covers so I want to use my ’97 covers. The bolt locations are the same, but the gasket is different. I assume that the ’97 valve covers can be used, but I will need gaskets for a ’97, not for an ’04.

Exhaust Manifolds: The exit angle of the ‘04 passenger side exhaust manifold is different from the ’97. I’m replacing the cats anyway so it’s not a big deal, but I assume I need to buy converters for an ’04 to correctly fit the manifolds.

I believe the 97 timing cover should work on the 04 block.

The crank trigger wheel: the old one is probably cast and the new one is stamped. There's a possibility of the cast one breaking, I'd run the stamped one.

EGR/ Exhaust manifolds: Probably need to stick with the 97.

Knock sensors: leave them in or take them out, whichever

Intake: Drilling and tapping for other coolant temp sensor is pretty easy.

Water Pump: ? Short shaft versus long shaft?

Valve covers: The newer ones are updated to hold the gasket better and shouldn't allow leaks as easily. Romeo NPI, Romeo PI, gaskets are the same.


You can find used aftermarket cams on Mustang website if you want the extra HP but want to save money...

If the EGR is coming off of the drivers side manifold, then that engine is not from a Panther. Panther engines always had the EGR on the passenger side.

Regarding crank trigger wheel and crank timing gears






please read this

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2008/03/...misinformation/

You should use 04 crank gears and crank trigger wheel altogether



along with 04 timing chain guides




and 97 steel chain tensioners

Here are the water pumps. '97 is on the left and '04 is on the right. I understand the change in 2001 where shaft got shorter and the pulley shape changed. But the major issue is that the '04 pump doesn't have the threaded end for the mechanical cooling fan. At first I thought that was a P71 difference, but looking up replacement water pumps for each successive year; it appears the mechanical cooling fan was last used in '97.



BigMerc, I looked into the exhaust manifold EGR stuff:
Casting Numbers on my ’04 exhaust manifolds:
Passenger: RF-3W7E-9430-AD
Driver: RF-3W7E-9431-AG

Those are correct part numbers for OEM manifolds, which have the EGR tube connected on the driver side. Replacement manifolds for 2003-11 have the EGR port on the driver side. Manifolds from 2002 and older have the EGR port on the passenger side. Accordingly, Magnaflow direct fit converters are different parts for ’02 and older cars vs. ’03 and newer. I’m not trying to rock the boat; I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t know much about panthers unless it’s a ’97. But looking up replacement manifolds for progressive years of Crown Victorias shows a switch of the EGR port to the driver side in 2003.

But in addition, I had overlooked earlier that my '97 EGR tube has two lines that tap off of it and connect to the DPFE sensor. The EGR tube on the '04 engine does not have these two lines. So regardless of driver side vs. passenger side EGR tubes, I need to stick with my EGR tube and manifolds from the '97.

Hassan, thanks for that article. I hadn’t looked close enough at the crank sprockets to notice the difference in thickness and flanges. I took the timing cover off to check the condition of the chain guides, and when I found them in good condition I decided to leave all the timing components in place. I only considered using the old trigger wheel because I thought that it might matter for compatibility with the crank sensor. Now I know that it doesn’t… thanks! I’ll swap steel tensioners in since I have them.

Regarding the water pump, you better go with 5.4L water pump (navigator pump) Motorcraft PW-423





it is a long type water pump & it has better flow because of better larger impeller design (7 shrouded blades)


the pump to the left is 4.6L, & 5.4L pump is to the right

and the good news is that you can get Navi's pump cheep $30 with free shipping from ebay

I have a chronicle of perseverance, this thread has a few others linked together to give the entire story, 2004 full PI swap into a 96 Town Car

https://www.crownvic.net/ubbthreads/ubbth...rue#Post2182043

I forgot about the water pump, I had to re-use the 96 one

Some comments

If the EGR is coming off of the drivers side manifold, then that engine is not from a Panther. Panther engines always had the EGR on the passenger side.

Nope-2003 up have the drivers side EGR supply, as such you need the 95-2002 style exhaust ....

Timing Cover: The ’04 cover lacks the hole to mount the passenger side coil pack, so it seems I should use the ’97 timing cover. Is there any reason that won’t work? The ’04 cover would also mean a different tensioner/idler layout, but I don’t think that makes any difference.

The 2000 up style tensioner wil route the belt into the coil pack bracket so you need to retain the 93-99 style cover


Crank trigger wheel: The crank position sensor looks exactly the same, but the trigger wheel is clearly different. Any reason to use one over the other?

Alla answered this perfect, I can add if you use the thick trigger on the PI style cam gear the trigger wheel binds against the timing cover....

EGR: On my ’97 engine the egr tube comes off the passenger side manifold and up to the plenum. On the ’04 engine it comes from the driver side manifold. I prefer to use the manifolds and tube from the ’04 because it saves me the trouble of swapping and the risk of breaking studs. With all other EGR related parts, I assume that I should use the ’97 parts because it ensures that my ’97 PCM and wiring harness will be entirely compatible. So, is there anything wrong with that plan?

You need the 97 everything to make the EGR work properly. More on the exhaust manifolds below

Knock Sensors: Those two wires running into the valley are knock sensors right? I just leave those unplugged and forget about them?

Correct and also need to leave alone the Cyl Head temp sensor on the drivers head though 97 MAY... have one

Intake Manifold: The ’97 NPI intake has two sensors on the front coolant crossover, while the ’04 PI intake has only one. This will leave one plug of my ’97 harness with nowhere to plug in…

The entire intake crossover unbolts and can be swapped to the PI intake providing you have the updated intake. You will need the plug wire bracket that came with the 96-97 intake update kit



Plenum and Throttle Body: I plan to use the one off the ’97 so all the vacuum hoses line up.

good

Water Pump: I believe I need to use the ’97 water pump because it mounts the fan. The ’04 water pump does not accommodate the cooling fan.

Get that 5.4 navigator pump or use the old one

Valve Covers: My ’04 PI engine had damaged valve covers so I want to use my ’97 covers. The bolt locations are the same, but the gasket is different. I assume that the ’97 valve covers can be used, but I will need gaskets for a ’97, not for an ’04.

The 03-05 style PCV is a big boy, you need the big hose elbow, and the Plenum even has a bigger nipple, this hung me up and I stuck with the old style covers



Exhaust Manifolds: The exit angle of the ‘04 passenger side exhaust manifold is different from the ’97. I’m replacing the cats anyway so it’s not a big deal, but I assume I need to buy converters for an ’04 to correctly fit the manifolds.
_________________________

03-up have a different frame, the exhaust won't fit. I re-used my 96 manifolds and cats

The old NPI block was handy for changing the exhaust studs

Awesome stuff Chevyguy! Those threads confirmed a lot of little things that I was going to do anyway but wasn't entirely sure about. Now I can proceed with confidence.

I've been working already on swapping the '04 exhaust manifolds for the '97 ones... which means that I have to deal with drilling and tapping new flange studs. Thanks for knowing that the '03 and newer exhaust would have hit my frame... that would have been an awful thing to find out when installing the engine.

I can't do the coolant crossover trick because I still have the original NPI intake with the plastic crossover. 170k miles and no coolant leak... do I win some kind of award for that? I'm comfortable with tapping a hole for the second coolant temp sensor on the driver side of the crossover. It begs the question; why does it need two sensors that (appear to) sense the same thing in nearly the same place?

I wasn't going to swap the oil pans but I see that you did. I'm happy to follow blindly because I know it worked for you but I'm curious, is there something that doesn't work with the newer pan? I thought I heard something about the PI pans having a sort of windage tray designed into them and wanted to take advantage of such. (I also saw that you swapped the oil pickup tube as well, which I will do).

Thanks again!

The '91-'97 engines/ECUs used 2 coolant sensors, one for the gage, and one for the computer. Later cars used 1 on the crossover for the gage, and the cylinder head temp sensor for the computer. At least thats the way I remember it being explained.

Beer also plan n on bearings. They likely got eat up along with the piston.

The 03 up oil pan is 5 qts vs 4 qts for 91-2002 and it will hit the old frame crossmember. You need to swap the old oil pickup tube like I did as well.

Your plug wire bracket won't fit the PI intake, you need the updated version as Ford changed the locations of the bolts that hold it to the intake

the part# is F8AZ-10153-EA but it looks to be discontinued, you can probably find one on a 96-97 Panther or 96-98 Mustang or 96-97 Thunderbird/cougar in the junkyard. Most ended up getting the intake replaced before they died.

My dipstick tube was broken off, but I found out that the 03 up style won't fit the 95-02 manifolds, and also hits the 91-02 style engine mounts (mustang tubes hit as well) There are like 3 variations from 91-2002 oddly the dipsticks are hard to find but not the tubes. I found a good dipstick in the junkyard and ordered up the matching tube from Ford, ended up with the 2001=2002 variety. The tubes are famous for breaking off in the block, it took me a few hours to get mine out and I had the engine upside down on the stand with the oil pan off to help the process.

This is correct, one can just drill and tap the crossover to add the coolant temp sensor to a PI intake.

Progress has been slow. Removing exhaust manifolds studs took a lot of work.

I've come to my next hiccup with swapping the '04 engine into a '97: As established before I need to install the '97 timing cover on the '04 engine but... the '97 engine had the alignment studs in the engine block while the '04 engine has the alignment studs in the timing cover. The result is that when putting the '97 cover on the '04 block there are no studs to align the cover.

Does anyone have a simple solution? Right now my only idea is to have a machine shop make dowels for me, but it seems like there is a better way...

Edit: I measured the dowels and found that they're 0.317" diameter. That's 5/16"--I can buy that at the hardware store and make the dowels myself, but I'm still interested in other suggestions.

Thanks!

The dowels (studs) are removable and they always placed on the engine block

it seams that your 04 dowels just got stuck on the timing cover

try to use some force (by visegrip) to extract them out of the timing cover or just buy Ford Racing 4.6L Cast Iron Block Plug and Dowel Kit M-6026-CI46 $34.97



or Ford Racing 4.6L Aluminum Block Plug and Dowel Kit M-6026-A46 $18.97 if you want the Dowels only

Will do. I tried that a little last night, but was convinced that the studs were a press-fit and had no chance of coming out intact.

Never could get any of the dowels to come loose. Thanks Hassan for links to the replacement kits.

Onward!

Car is up and running, and has been for a while. The extra power of the '04 engine is fun, but I can notice the loss in low-end torque compared to the NPI engine. Fifth gear used to get me up hills that now require 4th gear... but the difference is quite small. With the car working I kinda forgot to come back and give closure to this story.

I have some loose ends to tie up, like putting the wiper tray back in, and I discovered that my electric cooling fan has been non-functional for god knows how long.

Thanks to everyone for your help; those who posted here and those who have answered questions and given help throughout this site. Your help is frequently needed and often thankless, and I appreciate it.

Notes for posterity, in case anyone uses this thread for reference in the future:

-I had no conflict with the PI dipstick tube and NPI exhaust manifolds/engine mounts. Chevyguy's experience was different than mine and I have no idea why. However, I assume using a PI engine, dipstick, and dipstick tube with an NPI oil pan would make the dipstick read incorrectly.

-The plug wire bracket (over the alternator) for the '97 engine will bolt on to the '04 engine, though crooked and only with one bolt. For what it has to hold up, I'm sure its secure enough.

glad to hear that everything is working fine

yeah npi are great all around town but if you like to push it higher on the rpm band you will love the PI motor

Great news on the swap. My 04 had a broken off dipstick, and I had a 96-04 mustang tube that came with the head gasket kit. That tube did not fit for sure, I went with a 2001-2002 style to ensure it would fit

A 2001-2002 pi used the same oil pan as a 92-2000. The 03 up have a new longer dipstick

a 2001-2002 style MAF is a big help, I also used a 04 P-71 lower intake. A full MZT would be better but not cheap

I actually have all the MZT parts sitting the trunk of the car, but haven't put them on because of the need to re-tune. It's a pretty lame reason to not get the job done, but... well... The group-buy control arms from ADTR have been sitting in a box since 2012 as well...

I have cobra intake cams in a box since 2012, so join the club

Plus good luck getting a re-tune from BOC