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#1532129 - 08/04/08 11:19 AM Transmission fluid dump versus flush
DUNDEEDUDE Offline
Member

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 113
Loc: Dundee, IL
Guys, my 2003 is due for a transmission fluid change. If I just remove the pan/fluid and change the filter and fluid, how much oil would I need? I'm wondering how many quarts of old fluid would still be in it.

Thanks.

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#1532134 - 08/04/08 11:25 AM Re: Transmission fluid dump versus flush [Re: DUNDEEDUDE]
98VicP71 Offline
[email protected]
Grand Poobah

Registered: 03/28/06
Posts: 12731
Loc: ATL
IIRC it takes 8 quarts to do it that way. However I believe the trans if you can drain the converter as well will hold like 13 quarts.

I would pull the line loose if you don't have a converter drain plug and pump all the fluid out. Just make sure you have someone in the car ready to shut it down as soon as the fluid is out and not coming out the end of the line to keep from damaging the trans. Then put the line back in and drop the pan to swap the filter.
_________________________
1993 Lincoln Town Car 150k+ - RIP 5/10/2011
1998 Ford Crown Victoria P71 - RIP 12/25/2006
2001 Ford Crown Victoria P71(Count blackula) 297k+ - Ummmmmm evil

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#1532158 - 08/04/08 11:46 AM Re: Transmission fluid dump versus flush [Re: 98VicP71]
2kGM Offline
Member

Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 408
Loc: NW Virginia, USA
a flush (using the trans pump to pump fluid out) is better than draining just the pan. Done properly, you'll replace almost all the fluid in the transmission. Better still is to drain the converter.

I used the pump to get most of the fluid out of the trans (undo the supply line to the cooler, direct into drain bucket start engine, stop when it spits air) then drop the pan and drain the converter (because my '00 has a converter drain plug).

The advantage of doing it this way is that you don't get a face full of transmission fluid when you take the pan off. Besides, you want to do a j-mod anyway, right?
_________________________

1999 Grand Marquis LS HPP with PI intake manifold, mild J-mod, Class III hitch, KYB PI shocks.
2000 Grand Marquis GS with no options and mild J-mod - Sold to Father-in-law

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#1532189 - 08/04/08 12:38 PM Re: Transmission fluid dump versus flush [Re: DUNDEEDUDE]
JohnG Offline
Tech Admin
Grand Poobah

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 13025
Loc: Socialist state of MN
 Originally Posted By: DUNDEEDUDE
If I just remove the pan/fluid and change the filter and fluid, how much oil would I need?
Thanks.


To drain the PAN and refill, 4 qts +/- 1 pt.

When you say "flush", please be specific. If we are talking about a machine "flush" - RUN. It will only get about 70% of the old ATF out, and no I don't care what they say.

If we are talking about PUMPING out the pan, refilling, then pumping out the TC, you are talking about as good a job as a machine can do minus the possibility of damage (unless you run the trans dry for a couple minutes). This will take you 16 odd quarts unless you have a TC drain plug (-'01) then 12 qts or so.

The procedures are posted in the "BOK" forum.
_________________________
- 2004 Mercury Grand Marquis (GMQ) GS - aka "Data"
Save MILLIONS, vote to outsource our Executives!
What happeded to "government by the people, of the people and for the people"?
RIP Ronald W. Reagan "The Great #40"

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#1532220 - 08/04/08 01:07 PM Re: Transmission fluid dump versus flush [Re: JohnG]
DUNDEEDUDE Offline
Member

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 113
Loc: Dundee, IL
Thanks for the feedback.

How difficult is the procedure in the BOK forum? Also, looking into it, it says that newer models don't have a converter drain plug. What needs to be done to get the fluid out?

Thanks.

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#1532233 - 08/04/08 01:20 PM Re: Transmission fluid dump versus flush [Re: DUNDEEDUDE]
DUNDEEDUDE Offline
Member

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 113
Loc: Dundee, IL
Just read that it is by flushing......Thanks.

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#1532240 - 08/04/08 01:31 PM Re: Transmission fluid dump versus flush [Re: DUNDEEDUDE]
flyboy Offline
Ret US Army Medic
Poobah

Registered: 07/23/05
Posts: 5188
Loc: Chillicothe, Mo
I guess my Ford dealer has a secret way to "flush" trannys. On my 04 Sport & now the 04 LTC both had a "fludh" at 30k they replaced the fluid with 16+ qts of fluid.
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#1533078 - 08/05/08 04:59 PM Re: Transmission fluid dump versus flush [Re: flyboy]
JohnG Offline
Tech Admin
Grand Poobah

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 13025
Loc: Socialist state of MN
They use a machine that CANNOT do a terriffic job. Better in some ways than a simple pan-drop, but worse in others.
_________________________
- 2004 Mercury Grand Marquis (GMQ) GS - aka "Data"
Save MILLIONS, vote to outsource our Executives!
What happeded to "government by the people, of the people and for the people"?
RIP Ronald W. Reagan "The Great #40"

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#1534015 - 08/06/08 10:24 PM Re: Transmission fluid dump versus flush [Re: JohnG]
DUNDEEDUDE Offline
Member

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 113
Loc: Dundee, IL
 Originally Posted By: JohnG
They use a machine that CANNOT do a terriffic job. Better in some ways than a simple pan-drop, but worse in others.


JohnG, explain your thoughts.........

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#1534576 - 08/07/08 06:49 PM Re: Transmission fluid dump versus flush [Re: DUNDEEDUDE]
LTDteether Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 4471
Loc: Democratic Rep. of Southpaw
Say please!
_________________________
'99 GM GS HPP.
I may not be a rocket scientist, but I *am* a scientist.

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#1535443 - 08/08/08 09:23 PM Re: Transmission fluid dump versus flush [Re: LTDteether]
JohnG Offline
Tech Admin
Grand Poobah

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 13025
Loc: Socialist state of MN
I have posted similar, but not necessarily identicle information in the (distant) past...

The "Flush Machine" they CLAIM does such a wonderful job of getting all the old ATF out, really doesn't. That's the "bad" part. It does get a LOT more old ATF out than a simple pan drop, and that's the "good" part. Also, with this, you DO NOT remove the pan so you have no clue if there is a potential problem; therefore in this case you may be in for a future supprise that you did not want.

They CLAIM that a flush machine does a 90% or better job at removing old ATF. It cannot, and I will try to explain why.

ALL the "Flush Machines" that I have seen or have had marketed to me were powered by the vehicle. That is, the vehicle's ATF pump actually did the moving of the fluid and the machine just holds it (old and new). There may be valves, gauges and other fancy things on it, these are unimportant in terms of getting a good result.

When you start the engine with the machine connected, there is about 14 qts of old ATF in the trans and lines. This OLD ATF is sucked (more properly pushed as the cooler circuit cannot "suck" anything at all) into the cooler return line where it passes thru the gearset and drains into the PAN full of OLD DIRTY ATF. This process continues until the machine has "pumped" about 12-16 qts of new ATF into the transmission and that amount of OLD ATF (mixed with some percentage of the new ATF) is collected in the machine.

When you do the math, you find that:

1st qt Old + new = percentage of new etc, is:

14 old, take one old out, pump 1 new in = 13 old, 1 new (1/14th are "new"). Now, MIX old with new because engine is running:

The very first quart of ATF recovered will be almost 100% OLD ATF, the second a mix and so on.

Now I have 14:1 or 7.14% New ATF, when I pump out the next "quart", 7% or so will actually be NEW ATF. Therefore, of the total 1 qt out, only 0.93 will actually be OLD {14 x (1 - 0.0714)} = 0.9282 qts. But I add one NEW one in, so now I have 1.982 "new" quarts in, or 1.982/14 = 14.16% "new" ATF in, and the next quart OUT will be:

#2 14% new = 0.14 qts = (1.0 - 0.14 = 0.86 qts) old ATF out, but I put another new one in, so now I have 2.86 qts of NEW ATF, or 2.86/14 = 20.43% new ATF in and the next quart OUT will be:

#3 20.43% new = 0.20 qts = (1.0 - 0.20 = 0.80 qts) old ATF, but I put another new one in, so now I have (2.86 + 0.80) 3.66 qts of NEW ATF, or 3.66/14 = 26.14% new ATF in and the next quart OUT will be:

#4 26.14% new = 0.26 qts = (1.0 - 0.26 = 0.74 qts) old ATF, but I put another new one in, so now I have (3.66 + 0.74) 4.40 qts of NEW ATF, or 4.40/14 = 31.43% new ATF in and the next quart OUT will be:

#5 31.43% new = 0.31 qts = (1 - 0.31 = 0.69 qts) old ATF, but I put another new one in, so now I have (4.40 + 0.69) 5.1 qts of NEW ATF, or 5.1/14 = 36.36% new ATF in and the next quart OUT will be:

#6 36.4% NEW = 0.36 QTS = (1 - 0.36 = 0.64 qts) old ATF, but I put another new one in, so now I have (5.1 + 0.64) 6.74 qts of NEW ATF, or 6.74/14 = 48.14% new ATF in and the next quart OUT will be:

#7 48.14% NEW = 0.48 qts = (1 - 0.48 = 0.52 qts) old ATF, but I put another new one in, so now I have 6.74 + 0.52) 7.26 qts of NEW ATF, or 7.26/14 = 51.85% new ATF in and the next quart OUT will be:

#8 51.85% NEW = 0.52 qts = (1 - 0.52 = 0.48 qts) old ATF, but I put another new one in, so now I have (7.26 + 0.48) 8.73 qts of NEW ATF, or 8.73/14 = 62.36% new ATF in and the next quart OUT will be:

#9 62.36% NEW = 0.62 qts = (1 - 0.62 = 0.38) old ATF, but I put another new one in, so now I have (8.73 + 0.38) 9.11 qts of NEW ATF, or 9.11/14 = 65.1% new ATF in and the next quart OUT will be:

#10 65.1% NEW = 0.65 qts = (1 - 0.65 = 0.35) old ATF, but I put another new one in, so now I have (9.11 + 0.35) 9.46 qts of NEW ATF, or 9.46/14 = 67.57% new ATF in and the next quart OUT will be:

#11 67.6% NEW = 0.67 qts = (1 - 0.67 = 0.33) old ATF, but I put another new one in, so now I have (9.46 + 0.33) 9.79 qts of NEW ATF, or 9.79/14 = 69.3% new ATF in and the next quart OUT will be:

#12 69.3% NEW = 0.69 qts = (1 - 0.69 = 0.31) old ATF, but I put another new one in, so now I have (9.79 + 0.31) 10.1 qts of NEW ATF, or 10.1/14 = 72.1% new ATF in and the next quart OUT will be:

#13 72.1% NEW = 0.72 qts = (1 - 0.72 = 0.28) old ATF, but I put another new one in, so now I have (10.1 + 0.28) 10.38 qts of NEW ATF, or 10.38/14 = 74.1% new ATF in and the next quart OUT will be:

#14 74.1% NEW = 0.74 qts = (1 - 0.74 = 0.26) old ATF, but I put another new one in, so now I have (10.38 + 0.26) 10.64 qts of NEW ATF, or 10.64/14 = 76% new ATF in and the next quart OUT will be:

#15 76% NEW = 0.76 qts = (1 - 0.76 = 0.24) old ATF, but I put the LAST ONE in, so now I have (10.64 + 0.24) 10.88 qts of NEW ATF, or 10.88/14 = 77.7% NEW ATF and I am done.

Now, let's drop the pan (4 qts + a little), and drain the TC (~9 qts). 4 + 9 = 13 NEW quarts are added, that's 13/14 = 92.9% NEW ATF w/o a machine, and using TWO FEWER QUARTS of ATF!

If you continue this to the "end", it takes almost 99 quarts of ATF to be run thru a "Flush Machine" to get 90%+ NEW ATF.

_________________________
- 2004 Mercury Grand Marquis (GMQ) GS - aka "Data"
Save MILLIONS, vote to outsource our Executives!
What happeded to "government by the people, of the people and for the people"?
RIP Ronald W. Reagan "The Great #40"

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