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#2496250 - 04/05/12 11:19 PM Re: Engine coolant types and coolant change advice [Re: stalag]
stalag Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 4043
Loc: Columbus, OH
Due to doubters on the BITOG site, I went looking for the patent on which Caterpillar ELC-1 coolant was based. I found that Texaco, now Chevron/Texaco was and still is the OEM supplier of Caterpillar coolant. I found the original texaco patent on which the caterpillar ELC-1 coolant is based. The exact chemical composition is listed in example 1 and example 11. The patent number is 4587028 and has a patent date of May 6th, 1986.

By the way this is enough info to actually search for the patent. Please be aware I am not able to link directly to the patent text itself. If someone wants to add the link.....


Edited by stalag (04/05/12 11:20 PM)
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#2496627 - 04/06/12 03:56 PM Re: Engine coolant types and coolant change advice [Re: stalag]
interceptor1985 Offline
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Registered: 02/07/08
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#2501094 - 04/13/12 11:07 AM Re: Engine coolant types and coolant change advice [Re: stalag]
walnutavenue Offline
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Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 206
Loc: Illinois
Stalag-

The idea that cheaper brands of coolant that claim their product "meets EC-1 specifications" seems too good to be true. Zerex Example I figure there is a large grey area between "meets specifications" and "is equal to."

Are products like this truly as good as the CAT EC-1 coolant? Are they an adequate substitute? Or are they a dramatically inferior product that you advise against?
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#2501164 - 04/13/12 12:40 PM Re: Engine coolant types and coolant change advice [Re: stalag]
D-Fenz Offline

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Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 6738
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http://www.valvoline.com/products/brands/zerex/antifreeze/42

That's what I run, get it from NAPA cheaper than I can get the Motorcraft G-05 from the dealer.

That being said, this is very interesting.
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#2501323 - 04/13/12 04:00 PM Re: Engine coolant types and coolant change advice [Re: walnutavenue]
stalag Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 4043
Loc: Columbus, OH
Originally Posted By: walnutavenue
Stalag-

The idea that cheaper brands of coolant that claim their product "meets EC-1 specifications" seems too good to be true. Zerex Example I figure there is a large grey area between "meets specifications" and "is equal to."

Are products like this truly as good as the CAT EC-1 coolant? Are they an adequate substitute? Or are they a dramatically inferior product that you advise against?


"Meets specifications" always trumps "is equal to" but both are far better than "compatable with". I would personally have no problem using an Ashland Oil product in my car. Ashland oil makes coolants as an OEM supplier for various engine manufacturers. They should be fine as a refill.
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#2501341 - 04/13/12 04:45 PM Re: Engine coolant types and coolant change advice [Re: stalag]
walnutavenue Offline
Member

Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 206
Loc: Illinois
Originally Posted By: stalag
Originally Posted By: walnutavenue
Stalag-

The idea that cheaper brands of coolant that claim their product "meets EC-1 specifications" seems too good to be true. Zerex Example I figure there is a large grey area between "meets specifications" and "is equal to."

Are products like this truly as good as the CAT EC-1 coolant? Are they an adequate substitute? Or are they a dramatically inferior product that you advise against?


"Meets specifications" always trumps "is equal to" but both are far better than "compatable with". I would personally have no problem using an Ashland Oil product in my car. Ashland oil makes coolants as an OEM supplier for various engine manufacturers. They should be fine as a refill.


Cool. I have more than one vehicle that's still holding dexcool (gasp)... so anything is an improvement. I hate to pinch pennies by not getting the CAT brand... but with enough vehicles that need coolant changes the cost starts to get pretty significant. Thanks Stalag, it's good to have your endorsement.
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#2514624 - 05/01/12 09:17 PM Re: Engine coolant types and coolant change advice [Re: stalag]
dubch87 Offline

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Registered: 04/24/08
Posts: 589
Loc: NC
How low of a concentration of coolant can be used before the mixture loses its anti-corrosive properties? I want to begin flushing my system with distilled water while still driving for a few days so I don't waste gas and really run it through the system. I know it doesn't take long for corrosion to form. I still have around half a gallon of Shell conventional green I can add.

Once running clear, I will be using Zerex Radiator Super Flush, rinsing and refilling with Zerex G-05.
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#2515117 - 05/02/12 02:00 PM Re: Engine coolant types and coolant change advice [Re: dubch87]
stalag Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 4043
Loc: Columbus, OH
Originally Posted By: dubch87
How low of a concentration of coolant can be used before the mixture loses its anti-corrosive properties? I want to begin flushing my system with distilled water while still driving for a few days so I don't waste gas and really run it through the system. I know it doesn't take long for corrosion to form. I still have around half a gallon of Shell conventional green I can add.

Once running clear, I will be using Zerex Radiator Super Flush, rinsing and refilling with Zerex G-05.


Minimum recommended is a 30% mix of coolant 70% water.
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#2515388 - 05/02/12 09:27 PM Re: Engine coolant types and coolant change advice [Re: stalag]
dubch87 Offline

Climber

Registered: 04/24/08
Posts: 589
Loc: NC
Originally Posted By: stalag

Minimum recommended is a 30% mix of coolant 70% water.


Thanks!
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#2535649 - 06/04/12 11:12 PM Re: Engine coolant types and coolant change advice [Re: stalag]
Piranah Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 11/06/11
Posts: 2306
Loc: Iowa
how can the "at home" guys do it without a pump to avoid air bubbles.
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#2535789 - 06/05/12 08:07 AM Re: Engine coolant types and coolant change advice [Re: stalag]
stalag Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 4043
Loc: Columbus, OH
Be meticulous and idle the car for a bit with the cap off. The coolant will burp itself appropriately in that case.
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#2536147 - 06/05/12 07:45 PM Re: Engine coolant types and coolant change advice [Re: stalag]
dubch87 Offline

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Registered: 04/24/08
Posts: 589
Loc: NC
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#2563396 - 07/21/12 02:13 PM Re: Engine coolant types and coolant change advice [Re: stalag]
enslow Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 1569
Loc: Vancouver
Understanding pH in Coolants

Overview

The ideal pH (or pH at which a coolant is still effective) can depend on the type of coolant. Each type of coolant has a different inhibitor and buffer package which will affect the useful pH. A buffer controls the pH by using a balance of an acid and base. The acid pH = 0-7, the base pH is 7-12. (Actually, 7 is neutral, neither acidic nor basic.) As coolants break down, they produce a little acid which tries to make the pH drop below 7. The base part of the buffer takes the acid away protecting the cooling system from the acids. Once all the buffer is used up, there is no more buffer to control the pH, so the pH will rapidly drop below 7.

Buffer Packages in Two Common Coolants: Dexcool and G-05

In particular, Dexcool controls the pH using at least two different buffers: 2-ethylhexanoic acid/2-ethylhexanoate and sebacic acid/sebacate. The ideal pH for Dexcool is between 8.3-8.6 for a 30-50% mixture. (reference: http://www.acdelco.nichost.ru/files/antifreezedexcool.pdf ) A bottle of pH test strips may have a pH guide, but you cannot go by that guide because every inhibitor/buffer package has a different ideal pH. A bottle may say the coolant is good between pH 9-11. That information for Dexcool is misleading because Dexcool is designed to work at pH 8.5. In fact, if the buffer of Dexcool were to be used up, the pH would drop to below 7. Many coolants use 2-ethylhexanoic acid and are not called Dexcool. Most Prestone coolants have at least some 2-ethylhexanoic acid as the buffer.

Another coolant, G-05, uses a very different buffer system based on borate/boric acid. The borate buffers can maintain the pH anywhere from pH 7.4 to 9.2. Different makes of G-05 may use different proportions of borate buffer, but on average the ideal pH of a G-05 coolant is 8.0. (reference: http://msds.ashland.com/msds-ext/msdsDow...archHC&id=4 , http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/zerex_g05.pdf ).

Why Control pH?

In the times of the iron block, many eons ago, pH was kept quite basic using silicate buffers (the old green coolant). With the switch to aluminum intake manifolds, and even aluminum blocks, there was a need to control the pH around 8.0 or so (not so strongly basic). In fact, as long as your coolant doesn't go below 7, the metals in the cooling system are fairly safe. In many high schools, the chemistry teacher would add some acid to magnesium or calcium metal. You should have seen the metal turn into a white powder and bubbles of hydrogen escape from the experiment. Aluminum and iron, while not nearly so reactive, still react with acids (pH 0-7). The reason they set the target range of 8.0 for modern coolants is the pH is like a slippery slope. The basic portions of the buffers maintain the pH around 8.0 - 9.0 or so. Once the buffer gets used up as the coolant ages, the pH drops rapidly below 8.0 and goes acidic very quickly. If you measure a pH higher than 7.0, it will almost probably be 8.0 and above. You probably won't even measure any pH 7.0 because it will have already dropped below 7.0.

The buffers protect the metals from acids. The acids come from the reaction of glycols and oxygen to produce various acids. This cannot be prevented. ( https://dow-answer.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/5280/~/lttf---thermal-degradation-products-of-eg-and-pg ). The basic part of the buffer system will react with the acids, effectively removing the acids from the cooling system. The chemicals are still there, but not in acid form.

Cooling System Washes

If you chose to use a cooling system flush, they often use an acid to clean up old oxides in the cooling system. Metal oxides in the cooling system can be stuck to the metal surfaces (rust). The acid wash will turn the oxides into a salt which will not stick to the metal surfaces.

If you do not flush out the acid wash properly, you will have two problems. The first is that you will have metallic salts in your coolant which could be potentially abrasive if not removed. Secondly, some of the acids wash will remain in the cooling system and consume the buffer of your new coolant right away. Removing the flushing chemicals is quite difficult and time consuming. I tried the CAT cooling system flush and my coolant really did come out BLACK! Draining and refilling only clears out about 50% of the water in the system. Each fill and drain will simply dilute the flushing chemicals 50% each time: 1st flush is 50%; 2nd is 25%; 3rd is 12.5%; 4th is 6.13%; 5th is 3.06%; 7th is 1.5%; 8th is 0.75%; 9th is 0.38%; 10th is 0.19%. Most buffers make up less than 10% of the pure coolant, so by the time you get your 50:50 mix in the system, your buffer less than 5%. Even after 7 flushes, you still have 1.5% of the old coolant in the system which can significantly reduce the life of your new coolant. In fact, it may be useful to use some pH test strips to ensure the pH of the flushing water is close to 7. After the CAT wash, it took about 8 fill/flush cycles before the flushings were nearly colourless.

NOTE: this method of fill/flush requires that the engine be run for about 1 minute between each fill/flush. This is the ONLY way you will get the lower block flushed out. If the engine is not run between fill/flushes, when you add your coolant in the end, it will turn muddy almost immediately.

Every fill/flush requires the addition of about 2 gallons. 10 fill/flushes would then require at least 20 gallons of fresh water to get the old flushings down to an insignificant percent. So, Stalag was not joking when he said it requires over 20 gallons of distilled water to flush. [i][/i]
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#2563462 - 07/21/12 04:14 PM Re: Engine coolant types and coolant change advice [Re: stalag]
enslow Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 04/06/02
Posts: 1569
Loc: Vancouver
Interesting advertising here:
http://www.acdelco.nichost.ru/files/antifreezedexcool.pdf

It states that it can last the life of the engine/car. Note that later, it's referring to corrosion inhibiton, not the buffer system which is separate.

I might argue that, in a perfect system with no oxygen dissolved in the water, ethylene glycol will not break down into the acids so quickly so that the buffer protection would last a long time. Corrosiion inhibition may well last the life of the vehicle because the inhibitors bind to the metallic surfaces making a protective layer. Once there, in theory, with enough inhibitors dissolved in the coolant, will not degrade, and you will maintain a protective layer on the metal.

Only in a perfect world. I'd call that slightly misleading advertising. No cooling system is perfect.
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Testing the multifunction switch (does NOT apply to 2003+)
Testing the MAF
Digital Cluster Repair
Stalag's Coolant Write-up


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#2563629 - 07/21/12 09:57 PM Re: Engine coolant types and coolant change advice [Re: dubch87]
Black_Sunshine Offline
Poobah

Registered: 12/09/10
Posts: 9688
Loc: AZ
Originally Posted By: dubch87
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This is the exact combo that I used a couple of weeks ago. I kept it simple. I drained and refilled. I didn't do any flushing. The coolant that came out was still bright yellow and clear. I replaced the thermostat as well and there was no signs of any corrosion there.
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