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#2721896 - 06/13/13 11:23 PM Re: DBW intake mods (straight business) [Re: Black_Sunshine]
caddylackn Offline
Member

Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 139
Loc: Bremerton, WA
I finally got my EBAY special F-150 TB. The seller sent me the wrong one at first mad . The first one they sent was a DBW TB from a GM it looked very similar and the guy said his wife shipped the wrong one. I then looked back at the ebay ad and he advertised a F-150 TB, but had the picture of the GM TB in it.

Once I got the correct TB I compared the ford to the GM, the interesting thing is the bolt pattern for the GM TB appears the same as the ford and the TB size is close at about 72 mm. There was only one electrical connector on the GM but it had 6 pins (motor on same side as the TPS). The ford has two connectors and 6 pins total (Motor on opposite side as the TPS). I am sure someone could mod a harness to work on the GM if they had the GM plug end.

It could possibly work on a Vic, but there is a chance the impedance on the TPS would be way off and it would not work correctly with the ford EEC as the computer would think it had another throttle angle. If the TPS from the ford could just be retrofitted on the GM TB, then we would have another DBW TB option that could work. I have to ship the GM TB back or I would open it up.
_________________________
[img]http://s1366.photobucket.com/user/Caddylackn/media/CrownVic600by200_zpsba01d9b8.jpg.html[/img]
2006 Crown Vic PI, 160K, 610 hrs, Trick Flow Plenum, F-150 DBW TB, J-mod, Steeda U/D, 2005 mustang GT wheels, BBK long tubes, BBK X-pipe w/ cats, full 2.25" exhaust, Reinhart tuned, slotted & drilled rotors, custom headlight harness

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#2721934 - 06/14/13 12:40 AM Re: DBW intake mods (straight business) [Re: Black_Sunshine]
Black_Sunshine Offline
Poobah

Registered: 12/09/10
Posts: 9687
Loc: AZ
I would be more worried about the motor in it working correctly than the TPS. Either way it sounds like too much trouble.

I've run a whole tank of gas through my car since I put the 75mm TB on it. The economy seemed the same but I'm not 100% sure on that yet. I'm going to try to take it easy on this next tank and see what happens.

It's super hard not to drive my car like a badass because it sounds so good. Too bad it isn't badass. lol
_________________________


75mm DBW TB

Click to reveal...

2005 Grand Marquis GS Two Tone Edition

Vibrant White over Arizona Beige

The GS Two Tone Package includes:
� hood ornament
� c-pillar emblems
� LS style body side moldings
� body color mirror caps (the b-pillars are body color too, but I don't know if that is package specific)
� two tone interior (mine is leather and includes embossed logos on the seats)
� front door sill plates that say �Grand Marquis�

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#2722244 - 06/14/13 09:44 PM Re: DBW intake mods (straight business) [Re: Black_Sunshine]
03RedVicSport Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 03/02/10
Posts: 2283
Loc: Central NY
Originally Posted By: Black_Sunshine
That's when you let off just before the shift, the nose drops, and then it shifts, hard.


That's the way I like an automatic to shift... Basically, when you're romping on it hard, it SHOULDN'T shift itself while you're still in the throttle. You should need to lift slightly for a brief moment so the trans can hit the next gear 'BANG!' then it's the gas peddle goes back to the mat again...
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"All This Has Happened Before And Will Again"

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#2722254 - 06/14/13 10:09 PM Re: DBW intake mods (straight business) [Re: Black_Sunshine]
caddylackn Offline
Member

Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 139
Loc: Bremerton, WA
That is good news, the fuel economy should be the same if have been driving the same. That means the new TB is measuring and metering the flow equivalent to what it was before. The only difference should be at WOT, you can now let in a little more air, which allows more fuel to be metered in, and you can make more power.

If your gas mileage went in the toilet, we might have a problem using the F-150. That would mean it is not sending the correct throttle position to the computer as the F-150 TPS is calibrated differently. I would think the closed loop EEC system and O2 sensors would keep the car from going way too lean or way too rich but if it was off just a bit at cruising speed the mileage would suffer.

I agree a GM TB would be too much trouble, since we now have a ford factory part option that works. If you had a free GM TB and an extra ford TPS it might be worth trying if you wanted to save $100.
_________________________
[img]http://s1366.photobucket.com/user/Caddylackn/media/CrownVic600by200_zpsba01d9b8.jpg.html[/img]
2006 Crown Vic PI, 160K, 610 hrs, Trick Flow Plenum, F-150 DBW TB, J-mod, Steeda U/D, 2005 mustang GT wheels, BBK long tubes, BBK X-pipe w/ cats, full 2.25" exhaust, Reinhart tuned, slotted & drilled rotors, custom headlight harness

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#2722272 - 06/14/13 10:53 PM Re: DBW intake mods (straight business) [Re: Black_Sunshine]
Black_Sunshine Offline
Poobah

Registered: 12/09/10
Posts: 9687
Loc: AZ
Ultimately I'm sure that the TPS is off because 10% open with a 65mm TB is not the same as 10% open with a 75mm TB. Maybe the MAF is making up the difference or something.

It's noticeable that more air goes in with less throttle. WOT actually feels closer to the same than the lesser throttle positions.

I'm going to start reading about tuning and I'm sure that I'll learn a lot more about it then. I can't wait until I can reprogram it and put the better air box on. I've gotten a taste of what's to come and it's driving me crazy.
_________________________


75mm DBW TB

Click to reveal...

2005 Grand Marquis GS Two Tone Edition

Vibrant White over Arizona Beige

The GS Two Tone Package includes:
� hood ornament
� c-pillar emblems
� LS style body side moldings
� body color mirror caps (the b-pillars are body color too, but I don't know if that is package specific)
� two tone interior (mine is leather and includes embossed logos on the seats)
� front door sill plates that say �Grand Marquis�

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#2722423 - 06/15/13 12:32 PM Re: DBW intake mods (straight business) [Re: Black_Sunshine]
09mnsp Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 11/08/11
Posts: 1703
Loc: Minnesota, U.S.
Originally Posted By: Black_Sunshine
I've gotten a taste of what's to come and it's driving me crazy.
That taste is dangerous, and expensive.lol
_________________________
09 P71
Custom tubular rear control arms by Tink, ADTR sway bars by Eibach, Lowered, Detroit Trutrac/Motive 4.30, J-modded, Circle D multi disc 3600-3700 stall, OBX LT's and 2.5" X-pipe, 2.5" Dynomax ultraflows into 3" mandrel bent tail pipes, HI Tech stage2 cams, Dragon Oval Plenum/60mm GT500 TB, Steeda Underdrives, Dyno Tuned By APSAutoworks 281rwhp/297rwtq

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#2722459 - 06/15/13 03:04 PM Re: DBW intake mods (straight business) [Re: Black_Sunshine]
RKDF Offline
n00b

Registered: 05/08/13
Posts: 29
Loc: Florida
I was wondering about the tune, I've heard some guys say you need one and others say it works without. I've got 3.73's so I'm always turning a few hundred RPM's faster than stock so I figured I'd be fine with a 75mm BBK as far as bogging goes. If anything I think my car's hurting for air at higher RPM's right now, doing the full intake before an airbox+tune is probably a good call.
_________________________
2011 LX: CVPI Airbox Assembly, Accufab Plenum, Kooks Headers, Borla Cat Back, Underdrives, 3000RPM Torque Convertor, 22C Sparks, 180 Degree Thermostat, Dynotech Aluminum Driveshaft, Metco Loop, Trac-Lock, 3.73 Gears, Addco Swaybars, Metco Control Arms

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#2722468 - 06/15/13 03:51 PM Re: DBW intake mods (straight business) [Re: 09mnsp]
KayTar Offline

Poobah

Registered: 05/13/09
Posts: 9426
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By: 09mnsp
Originally Posted By: Black_Sunshine
I've gotten a taste of what's to come and it's driving me crazy.
That taste is dangerous, and expensive.lol


Quoted for truth!
_________________________
2008 P71 - Vortech V2-SQ, 3.4" pulley, 2nd cats removed - Sold
2013 Silverado 2500 6.0 4X4 - Sold
2017 Challenger 392

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#2722472 - 06/15/13 04:06 PM Re: DBW intake mods (straight business) [Re: RKDF]
BlackVic_P71 Offline
Grand Poobah

Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 14602
Loc: LI, NY
Originally Posted By: RKDF
I was wondering about the tune, I've heard some guys say you need one and others say it works without.

I've put a larger TB on 2 2005's with a stock tune and the cars ran fine. I have heard that some have not been able to run an aftermarket TB because of problems, I don't know what exactly those problems were or if directions were followed(resetting the computer for instance) during the install.
_________________________
Originally Posted By Jeremy Clarkson
The future is very fast and extremely quiet...but a bit burny.

1989 Ford Crown Victoria Country Squire - 347
2005 Crown Victoria LX Sport with Stainless Works full exhaust, Addco swaybars, Heinous control arms, Powerslot rotors, Hawk HPS pads
Accufab plenum for a DBW Panther
Blue LED buttons/switches how to

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#2722482 - 06/15/13 04:36 PM Re: DBW intake mods (straight business) [Re: Black_Sunshine]
caddylackn Offline
Member

Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 139
Loc: Bremerton, WA
It appears that the computer may be self calibrating for the new TB as long as the voltage out of the TPS is linear throughout its range, see link below. The computer is only reading the difference between WOT and idle by voltage to figure out the instantaneous throttle angle. The MAF is what really measures the air for the computer to meter the fuel so that is why a tune is required for the bigger MAF. The throttle angle does not play into how much fuel is needed during steady cruise, only when the motor is at idle (0% open) , rapid changes in throttle angle, (acceleration or deceleration) or full throttle (100% open).

The TPS serves as the input for the computer to set the timing curves, fuel enrichment based on driver input. The TPS probably affects the shifting of the tranny, as well and some other emission crap, like turning off the EGR at WOT.

So what I think is 10% throttle on the stock TB is the same as 10% throttle on the F-150 since the computer only cares about what % of open throttle plate you are at (what you are doing). The timing and fuel curves are selected from that information, but the amount of air is caught by the MAF. We now can get more air in less throttle angle at cruise, so we have a slightly less throttle angle at the same engine speed (maybe 8% now instead of 10%) but we are still in cruise mode and the computer should still think we are in cruise mode. That should not effect the timing or enrichment system hopefully. The computer should still know when we are at WOT, idle, rapid acceleration, or deceleration even though the throttle angle while cruising is a little different now.

Here is some good material on Ford EFI on this site for reference, mostly EEC-IV stuff but probably is still valid. http://oldfuelinjection.com/?p=30

I hope someone more knowledgeable on Vic EECs chimes in here.
_________________________
[img]http://s1366.photobucket.com/user/Caddylackn/media/CrownVic600by200_zpsba01d9b8.jpg.html[/img]
2006 Crown Vic PI, 160K, 610 hrs, Trick Flow Plenum, F-150 DBW TB, J-mod, Steeda U/D, 2005 mustang GT wheels, BBK long tubes, BBK X-pipe w/ cats, full 2.25" exhaust, Reinhart tuned, slotted & drilled rotors, custom headlight harness

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#2722549 - 06/15/13 08:16 PM Re: DBW intake mods (straight business) [Re: Black_Sunshine]
Black_Sunshine Offline
Poobah

Registered: 12/09/10
Posts: 9687
Loc: AZ
Just for clarity, the MAF itself is the same. The tube that it's in is larger and the front hole in the air box is larger.

The MAF has to be re-calibrated to allow for the increase in air.

I think that more air is going in earlier because of the larger TB. That's what it feels like. Then at full throttle it's the same as before because the airbox is restricting it.
_________________________


75mm DBW TB

Click to reveal...

2005 Grand Marquis GS Two Tone Edition

Vibrant White over Arizona Beige

The GS Two Tone Package includes:
� hood ornament
� c-pillar emblems
� LS style body side moldings
� body color mirror caps (the b-pillars are body color too, but I don't know if that is package specific)
� two tone interior (mine is leather and includes embossed logos on the seats)
� front door sill plates that say �Grand Marquis�

CarDomain

Facebook


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#2725500 - 06/22/13 09:29 PM F-150 DBW and Trick Flow Plenum Done [Re: Black_Sunshine]
caddylackn Offline
Member

Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 139
Loc: Bremerton, WA
I just followed the Accufab DBW write up and this excellent write up and installed the Trick Flow plenum on my '06 with the F-150 DBW TB.

The only things I did differently were:

I followed the Accufab DBW install except:

1. I tapped the IAC port to 3/8" pipe thread and installed the brake booster nipple at this port. This kept it away from the EGR tube, and over the top of the steel bracket. I used the lower port that was for the brake booster and put in a 3/8" iron pipe street el 90 bend pointed up followed by another street el 90 bend pointed toward the valve cover and added a 3" section of 3/8" pipe to attach the 5/8" new PVC hose. This raised the PVC tube alignment above the steel bracket and pointed right toward the valve cover. I cut the existing PVC tube at mid point and attached a 5/8" hose from the iron pipe nipple to the existing hose in a straight shot, no bends.

2. I hooked the 3/8" hose on that sensor on the firewall to the port closest to the TB on the firewall side. I used a couple brass pex 90 bends to keep any loops or bends out. These 1/2" pex 90 double nipples work really well with the 3/8" fuel hose and do not need clamps. They were only $1.80 each at Lowe's.

3. I used the F-150 TB motor but the crown vic TPS.

Suggestions:

1. I bought a TB gasket for autozone to use as a template to scribe the F-150 TB for drilling. I then used it on the install. I ordered the F-150 but Autozone gave me one that fit the crown vic TB frown , so I had to enlarge the bore a little but the bolt pattern was correct. That ended up being easier than moving the bolt holes in the gasket and gave me more gasket material around the bore to prevent leaks.

2. Check that bores are aligned when you start bolting the TB to the plenum through the slotted holes one at a time. When you add one bolt that throws off the bore alignment, you know that is the one that needs more adjustment. I had all four bolts in and looked at the bore and it was off by 1mm. I then proceeded to hog all four holes a little to the side, when it was only 1 that was off.

3. Use the white paste pipe dope on all black iron and brass nipple connections. It doesn't harden, acts as an anti seize, and prevents vacuum leaks.

4. Hit the EGR bolts on both sides with a little PB blaster.

5. I had to grind the head of one bolt a little that was hitting the TB outside body. I had to grind the bottom bracket on the Trick Flow that was hitting the steel bracket on the manifold.


Mistakes I made written down so you don't make them:

1. Be careful wrestling the Zip tube over the 75mm TB, I busted my PVC nipple half way off the zip tube and had to glue it back together. Follow this install guide and preheat the zip tube with a heat gun and hammer a tapered object in to stretch it. Have a 4" clamp ready, your old clamp won't fit, because once you shoe horn this size 12 foot into a size 8' shoe it wants to pop right back off with hardly any pressure. I used the clamp on the other end of the zip tube, and bought another 4" one at Lowe's on my test ride. I used the original TB clamp on the zip tube to grab the PVC port I messed up and keep it clamped to the zip tube while the glue dries. I'll leave it there.

2. Swap out the TPS on the TB first before installing to the plenum and bolting the plenum on. I tried running it with the F-150 TPS and it definitely is off, and idled too high. Throttle response was really bad ass though took about 1 sec to hit 3,000 rpm+. Swapping out the TPS to my Crown Vic one I broke one of the screws off mad .
Test Drive:

The car runs really well, it took a minute or two to find its idle, but it is not throwing any codes, missing, or pinging. The throttle response off idle is right now and I found myself needing to be much more sensitive with the pedal. Haven't flogged it hard yet, but did floor it coming up a steep hill. There is definitely more top end pull above 3000 rpms. I can't tell what I lost down low if any. I need to get my J mod in to get rid of the slushy mamby pamby stock shifting that is robbing all my low end torque to see if I lost any with this mod.

How do I add pictures of the install?

I'll top off my tank and try to keep my foot out of it to check mileage. I only average 19 mpg now.
_________________________
[img]http://s1366.photobucket.com/user/Caddylackn/media/CrownVic600by200_zpsba01d9b8.jpg.html[/img]
2006 Crown Vic PI, 160K, 610 hrs, Trick Flow Plenum, F-150 DBW TB, J-mod, Steeda U/D, 2005 mustang GT wheels, BBK long tubes, BBK X-pipe w/ cats, full 2.25" exhaust, Reinhart tuned, slotted & drilled rotors, custom headlight harness

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#2725512 - 06/22/13 10:21 PM Re: F-150 DBW and Trick Flow Plenum Done [Re: caddylackn]
BlackVic_P71 Offline
Grand Poobah

Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 14602
Loc: LI, NY
Edit fast, it's PCV not PVC.
You did reset the computer, right?
Put pics up on Photobucket.com and link them here, or go to the "Full Reply" screen to add images(under the reply box you can attach images).
_________________________
Originally Posted By Jeremy Clarkson
The future is very fast and extremely quiet...but a bit burny.

1989 Ford Crown Victoria Country Squire - 347
2005 Crown Victoria LX Sport with Stainless Works full exhaust, Addco swaybars, Heinous control arms, Powerslot rotors, Hawk HPS pads
Accufab plenum for a DBW Panther
Blue LED buttons/switches how to

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#2725536 - 06/22/13 11:03 PM Re: F-150 DBW and Trick Flow Plenum Done [Re: Black_Sunshine]
Black_Sunshine Offline
Poobah

Registered: 12/09/10
Posts: 9687
Loc: AZ
If you use photobucket.com you can just copy the img tags and paste them here.


When I was jacking around with my zip tube I thought that I might break the PCV hose off of it. Luckily I gave up and got the heat gun out first. I tried to just heat it and shove it onto the TB. That just wasn't happening. Finally innovation kicked in and I found that stainless steel shaker lid to shove it on. Once I had it heated and shoved on there I let it cool before I yanked the shaker lid out with pliers. In one of the pics you can see the water I poured over it all over the floor.

I'm still planning fixing my other big vacuum line so that it looks better. My plan is to get the hard line that's under it from the the junkyard. Then use the bends in the hard line to make a nice custom line. The one time that I went to the junkyard since I got this together they didn't have any late models.

I'm also making an adapter to mount my cover back up with.
_________________________


75mm DBW TB

Click to reveal...

2005 Grand Marquis GS Two Tone Edition

Vibrant White over Arizona Beige

The GS Two Tone Package includes:
� hood ornament
� c-pillar emblems
� LS style body side moldings
� body color mirror caps (the b-pillars are body color too, but I don't know if that is package specific)
� two tone interior (mine is leather and includes embossed logos on the seats)
� front door sill plates that say �Grand Marquis�

CarDomain

Facebook


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#2725653 - 06/23/13 12:21 PM Re: DBW intake mods (straight business) [Re: Black_Sunshine]
caddylackn Offline
Member

Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 139
Loc: Bremerton, WA
No, I did not reset the computer. It seems like the computer had to learn the new TB and adjusted itself. If I have drive-ability problems or poor gas mileage I will try that.

Here are some photos:
Final Hose Routing, notice the hoses are all over the EGR pipe heat shield. Putting the booster hose on the lower port on the plenum would have routed it next to the EGR tube and under the bracket. I didn't want these touching.
http://s1366.photobucket.com/user/Caddylackn/media/May2013093_zps95f3abb7.jpg.html

Moving the Brake Booster Port to the IAC and moving the PCV port up over the heat shield.

[img:center]http://s1366.photobucket.com/user/Caddylackn/media/May2013089_zps14255dc6.jpg.html[/img]

[img:center]http://s1366.photobucket.com/user/Caddylackn/media/May2013087_zpsfab5afc8.jpg.html[/img]

Finished picture, I should have painted the plenum satin black or cast aluminum.

[img:center]http://s1366.photobucket.com/user/Caddylackn/media/May2013090_zps80bb3a78.jpg.html[/img]


Edited by caddylackn (06/23/13 12:27 PM)
_________________________
[img]http://s1366.photobucket.com/user/Caddylackn/media/CrownVic600by200_zpsba01d9b8.jpg.html[/img]
2006 Crown Vic PI, 160K, 610 hrs, Trick Flow Plenum, F-150 DBW TB, J-mod, Steeda U/D, 2005 mustang GT wheels, BBK long tubes, BBK X-pipe w/ cats, full 2.25" exhaust, Reinhart tuned, slotted & drilled rotors, custom headlight harness

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