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#2768088 - 10/17/13 06:37 PM Misfire with no codes problem
Nate1n22 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 110
Loc: Michigan
For the past year I've had a misfire on my 2007 CVPI but haven't gotten a check engine light. It all started about a year ago when I had a COP shoot out of the cylinder. I replaced the coil and started noticing a slight hesitation and rough idling. I also changed another coil due to it coding at the time, and I cleaned the MAF sensor.
I took it to the local dealership and they claimed I had a bad timing chain and quoted me like $1500 to replace it. I didn't do anything about it because I didn't think I had any of the "symptoms" of a bad timing chain...
Decided to try and change all of the spark plugs, and got to one that had a stripped thread. Went to O'Rileys and picked up a sleeve and tapped it in and it seemed to work. I still had hesitation and rough idling but just ignored it up until now.
This week I bring it to a newer local shop and the guy just tells me I need new COPS, new spark plugs, and some "special engine cleaner" and I should be all set to go. I took it to another shop that thought it was a transmission issue, so I took it a transmission service place and that guy didn't think it was a transmission.
So today he spent all day tearing it apart, and still hasn't narrowed down the problem.

He said the #5, #6, #7, #8 cylinders are misfiring, but the fuel trim on that side is good, but it showing bad on the #1,2,3,4 side. He also said the cam sensors are good.

He wants to look into it more tomorrow, but I don't really want to pay all this money if they can't actually narrow it down to something... At this point they're just guessing..

Anyone have any ideas as to what it may be?

Thanks


Edit: I always thought the problem was the sleeve we tapped in, I've never done anything like that before and I'm not really sure if it's in there all the way, but none of these repair shops have said anything bad about it.


Edited by Nate1n22 (10/17/13 06:38 PM)
_________________________
2007 MSP Blue CVPI 100k miles - Mustang Bullitt Rims - Kenwood DDX419 head unit

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#2768099 - 10/17/13 07:28 PM Re: Misfire with no codes problem [Re: Nate1n22]
TM875 Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 1761
Loc: Elizabethtown PA
Which plug has the sleeve? Are the COPs original?

If it was me, I would first test or just replace all of the COPs (IMO the cheap ones are okay, but won't last 100k like the Ford ones will). Check for coolant leaks, especially on the drivers side (cylinders 5-8). Was there any coolant in the spark plug wells when you changed them? Change the fuel filter and run some injector cleaner. Did you torque the plugs to 11ft lbs when you installed them?

Try the simple stuff first before you get in too deep. If this doesn't fix the miss, and there's no coolant or oil leak, start digging deeper.
_________________________
'02 Ford F-150, 162k miles
'08 Subaru Legacy - the girl's car
'10 Subaru Forester XT
'07 CVPI Norcea Blue Pearl, 120k miles - Former NM State Police (sold)
'04 CVPI Spruce Green, 123k miles - Former PA State Police (sold)
'01 CVLX, White (sold)
'97 MGM, White (sold)



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#2768105 - 10/17/13 07:45 PM Re: Misfire with no codes problem [Re: TM875]
Jacksknight Offline
Climber

Registered: 02/04/13
Posts: 737
Loc: Taco Bell
Originally Posted By: TM875
Which plug has the sleeve? Are the COPs original?

If it was me, I would first test or just replace all of the COPs (IMO the cheap ones are okay, but won't last 100k like the Ford ones will). Check for coolant leaks, especially on the drivers side (cylinders 5-8). Was there any coolant in the spark plug wells when you changed them? Change the fuel filter and run some injector cleaner. Did you torque the plugs to 11ft lbs when you installed them?

Try the simple stuff first before you get in too deep. If this doesn't fix the miss, and there's no coolant or oil leak, start digging deeper.


+1 for coolant leaks. I just changed my intake manifold and found out it was leaking coolant directly into cylinder number 8. It was the cause of what felt like a misfire with no codes thrown.
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2003 Mercury Grand Marquis, 148k

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#2768139 - 10/17/13 09:28 PM Re: Misfire with no codes problem [Re: Nate1n22]
Nate1n22 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 110
Loc: Michigan
The mechanic I took it to today said there isn't a coolant leak. I believe #3 has the sleeve. A couple of the COPS have been replaced by me. I didn't get any maintenance records with this car so I'm not sure if they changed them at all.
I don't recall there being any coolant in the spark plug wells, and the fuel filter was changed back in July. I'm pretty sure I torqued them to 11ft lbs.
_________________________
2007 MSP Blue CVPI 100k miles - Mustang Bullitt Rims - Kenwood DDX419 head unit

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#2768280 - 10/18/13 01:26 PM Re: Misfire with no codes problem [Re: Nate1n22]
Wags4000 Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 03/13/13
Posts: 1694
Loc: Northumberland, PA
look for chaffed wires leading to the cops, or maybe even a wire that was nicked when the car was decommissioned and all the police equipment was removed via the snip n tug method.
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2003 CVLX; 312k mi (perch 103k); P74; Black Paint/Black leather; Blinking side marker mod; 2.73 open dif; Autolite Dbl Plat; General Altimax RT43; LCM Ext relay, FRPP mani; Max-Life 5w-30


03 Crown Victoria LX by Wags4000, on Flickr

2001 Merc GM LS; RIP at 340k mi (bought at 67k)-my former commuter. Finally passed on due to no one driving it and things just stopped working.

1986 Merc GM LS; 165k mi (bought at 118k)- Red with White vinyl half roof; 5.0L; RIP
87 Caprice Wagon; 356k; 5.0L(307cu) RIP

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#2768312 - 10/18/13 03:57 PM Re: Misfire with no codes problem [Re: Nate1n22]
Nate1n22 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 110
Loc: Michigan
Today the mechanic also told me one of the timing chains jumped time and the glides are plastic and worn causing it to jump. Would a bad timing chain be related to a misfire?
He quoted me $1500 to do the job
_________________________
2007 MSP Blue CVPI 100k miles - Mustang Bullitt Rims - Kenwood DDX419 head unit

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#2768381 - 10/18/13 08:30 PM Re: Misfire with no codes problem [Re: Nate1n22]
Jacksknight Offline
Climber

Registered: 02/04/13
Posts: 737
Loc: Taco Bell
Originally Posted By: Nate1n22
Today the mechanic also told me one of the timing chains jumped time and the glides are plastic and worn causing it to jump. Would a bad timing chain be related to a misfire?
He quoted me $1500 to do the job


I'm not an expert when it comes to the 4.6, but if the timing chain jumped time you would have a lot worse problems than a simple misfire. Im not saying your guides aren't bad, but if they had failed to that point you would have some serious issues.
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2003 Mercury Grand Marquis, 148k

Need a good IAC valve for 50 bucks?

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#2768398 - 10/18/13 09:43 PM Re: Misfire with no codes problem [Re: Nate1n22]
BigMerc96 Offline

I know nothing
Posting Addict

Registered: 06/05/10
Posts: 19868
Loc: I can see Detroit from here!
Yeah, that mechanic is full of [censored] if that car was running. They will not run after jumping time, ever again. Jumping time on an interference engine like the 4.6 would introduce several valves to a piston or 4.
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2006 Audi A6 ~132k miles, stock.
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1996 Mercury Grand Marquis GS 117,485mi. R.I.P. 7/14/12 frown

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#2768408 - 10/18/13 10:15 PM Re: Misfire with no codes problem [Re: Nate1n22]
Nate1n22 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 110
Loc: Michigan
Nice to know I paid $75 for that diagnostic haha.
According to his scan tool it showed a misfire on 5 6 7 8 but the fuel rail had a misfire on 1 2 3 4.
I might try replacing all of the coils, the only reason I overlooked that is because the Ford dealership said it was a timing chain and I wanted to finally get it fixed.
_________________________
2007 MSP Blue CVPI 100k miles - Mustang Bullitt Rims - Kenwood DDX419 head unit

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#2768429 - 10/18/13 11:27 PM Re: Misfire with no codes problem [Re: BigMerc96]
Logizyme Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 11/20/11
Posts: 1348
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: BigMerc96
Yeah, that mechanic is full of [censored] if that car was running. They will not run after jumping time, ever again. Jumping time on an interference engine like the 4.6 would introduce several valves to a piston or 4.


Your full of [censored]. Most any engine can jump a tooth or 3 and continue to run. Even interference engines will need to jump allot of teeth before piston valve collision. I've replaced countless broken belts or jumped teeth timing belts and chains on interference engines and they ran fine after, I've only seen a handful of bent valves. I even know some 4.6 2v drag racers that claim if you advance the chains 1tooth you can gain 30-40hp at the top end although with a sacrifice of the ability to idle.
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I eat apples until my stomach feels much more full than its normal
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2003 P71 "UnderCover" White - Beater
2003 Marauder 300B Black - Eaton swapped
2003 Marauder 300B Blue - Rescue

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#2768433 - 10/18/13 11:41 PM Re: Misfire with no codes problem [Re: Nate1n22]
Logizyme Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 11/20/11
Posts: 1348
Loc: Seattle, WA
I'm not trying to say your car has or has not jumped time. But jumping one tooth could be mistaken for a misfire. One tooth may or may not set cam/crank codes. But since your mechanic has determined you have misfire on bank 2 it is possible that only that bank jumped a tooth. And jumping one tooth may be enough to cause a subtle miss that wouldn't set a code but could be identified with the proper obd equipment.

Good luck with your car. If I were your mechanic I would be sure to check the ignition and fuel system over thoroughly, but it may be time to pull the front cover and take a look.

I've learned not to try to diagnose cars over the internet.
_________________________
I eat apples until my stomach feels much more full than its normal
----------------------------------------
2003 P71 "UnderCover" White - Beater
2003 Marauder 300B Black - Eaton swapped
2003 Marauder 300B Blue - Rescue

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#2768520 - 10/19/13 11:57 AM Re: Misfire with no codes problem [Re: Nate1n22]
TM875 Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 1761
Loc: Elizabethtown PA
I'm more concerned about the $1500 to do the timing chain job....that seems like A LOT for the amount of work that goes into it, but I guess you did say it was a dealer...

If I was you, and YOU'RE SURE it's the timing chains and/or guides and are unwilling to do the job yourself, I'd do one of two things:
1) sell the car immediately
2) find a new engine

New engines with less than 60k miles can be found for about $500-600 around here, YMMV. $1500 to repair anything, especially if he's not positive, is a lot to sink into a CVPI that may have other things wrong, too.
_________________________
'02 Ford F-150, 162k miles
'08 Subaru Legacy - the girl's car
'10 Subaru Forester XT
'07 CVPI Norcea Blue Pearl, 120k miles - Former NM State Police (sold)
'04 CVPI Spruce Green, 123k miles - Former PA State Police (sold)
'01 CVLX, White (sold)
'97 MGM, White (sold)



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#2768569 - 10/19/13 03:40 PM Re: Misfire with no codes problem [Re: Nate1n22]
Nate1n22 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 110
Loc: Michigan
The dealer wanted more than 1,500 dollars a year ago but this independent shop wants $1500. The thing is I've driven it for a year like this and haven't noticed it getting worse. I also don't hear the grinding or sewing machine noise usually associated with timing chains.
I did email a shop and they said it would be around $700
_________________________
2007 MSP Blue CVPI 100k miles - Mustang Bullitt Rims - Kenwood DDX419 head unit

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#2768762 - 10/20/13 10:02 AM Re: Misfire with no codes problem [Re: Nate1n22]
Logizyme Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 11/20/11
Posts: 1348
Loc: Seattle, WA
1500 sounds about right.
_________________________
I eat apples until my stomach feels much more full than its normal
----------------------------------------
2003 P71 "UnderCover" White - Beater
2003 Marauder 300B Black - Eaton swapped
2003 Marauder 300B Blue - Rescue

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#2769463 - 10/22/13 10:55 PM Re: Misfire with no codes problem [Re: Nate1n22]
Nate1n22 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 110
Loc: Michigan
Now I'm just trying to decide if I just want to run it how I've been, and if it goes just replace the engine, or just sell it.
I've ran the car like this for a year and haven't noticed it getting any worse, so it's hard for me to drop $1500 on timing chains....
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2007 MSP Blue CVPI 100k miles - Mustang Bullitt Rims - Kenwood DDX419 head unit

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