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#2903759 - 06/22/15 11:08 PM A long awaited mild performance build
walnutavenue Offline
Member

Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 206
Loc: Illinois
I’ve said since sometime in 2010 that I wanted to do a PI headswap (talked about a 5.4 swap too). But, I never got ambitious enough to tear apart a perfectly functioning car to do it… not when there are so many other projects to deal with. A few weeks ago my car told me it’s time. Must have been some sort of cry for attention.

It started knocking/rattling while I was backing out the driveway and needed to be revved up to about 1200rpm just to stay running. Before I had it back in the garage and shut off I was already pretty sure that I’d be pulling the engine apart. Removing a valve cover and having valvetrain parts fall to the floor confirmed it.







No doubt the valve spring broke allowing the valve to fall into the cylinder and make all the racket. During the last few seconds I had it running to maneuver it into the back of garage to be laid up for a while, the rattling changed sound… like it became multiple pieces instead of one. My guess is that the valve was still in the guide until then, and the additional sound was when the valve guide broke and allowed the valve to get sideways in the intake port and start getting hammered into the bent shape it is now. Upon disassembly I found valve guide pieces in the intake manifold.





So here it sits on an engine stand.





Question is… where to go with this build? My intent had always been to keep the bottom end and build a mild bolt-on PI headswapped 4.6, with a goal of about 300 flywheel hp. I figured that the pi headswap and compression bump would be good for 270ish, and that a BBK throttle body/plenum, underdrive pullies, high flow cats and a tune would be around 290hp with a pretty small budget. Add a set mild cams to it and 300hp should be no problem, but with a significantly larger price tag.

What would you do with a budget limit of around 4k? Don't say forced induction-- I'm fine with being slow.

P.S.
For sale: (20) ford 4.6L head bolts. Only torqued once.
_________________________
1997 CVPI
170k miles
5-speed swap, 3.73 trac-lok
BOC 91 Octane Tune

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#2903781 - 06/23/15 12:35 AM Re: A long awaited mild performance build [Re: walnutavenue]
Bondfreak13 Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 12/15/05
Posts: 4611
Loc: Ventura County, CA.
Well from the looks of it, you need a new pistion. im sure you can find used NPI pistions. And do the PI swap. Or get an NPI short block. I sure most will say just get a PI block, but that defeats the perpous of the compression bump. Unless you can find a cheap 4v short block. Then you'll get 12:1 compression with a PI head and possibly an aluminum block.

Also, Whats the blue car under the tarp? It looks like a 66 olds or related GM product.


Edited by Bondfreak13 (06/23/15 12:39 AM)
_________________________
2003 Mercury Marauder (300AB Stock w/ over 200k miles)
2000 Crown Vic.

Intelligence is knowing that a tomato is a fruit, Wisdom is knowing not use a tomato in a fruit salad.

If your looking for a large comfortable ride with that Retro Feel without the Retro looks, then the Panther chassis is your Car. It's the best Modern car from 1979 you can buy.

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#2903795 - 06/23/15 03:16 AM Re: A long awaited mild performance build [Re: walnutavenue]
Allaa_Hassan Offline
Member

Registered: 12/30/11
Posts: 317
Loc: Mecca, Saudi Arabia
^^^ He said it perfectly

Is that a Corvette C3 Stingray ?
_________________________
2004 Crown Victoria
Undergoing Build

Other Ride:
2000 P71 - SOLD
2008 Ford Explorer XLT 4WD V6 - Lifted & Loaded

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#2903830 - 06/23/15 10:59 AM Re: A long awaited mild performance build [Re: walnutavenue]
jgorm1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 317
Loc: san diego
I'd boost it:) Trick flow heads and some big ass cams would be pretty sweet, and in your budget. I think the piston might be fine, but you would need to clean it up and examine it closely.
_________________________
03 LX sport
02 Kenne bell mustang
03 E450 7.3 PSD motorhome 4" exhaust
06 rubicon on 35s
All custom tuned by me.

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#2903844 - 06/23/15 12:12 PM Re: A long awaited mild performance build [Re: walnutavenue]
walnutavenue Offline
Member

Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 206
Loc: Illinois
The piston is really battered on top although that shouldn’t affect its function. Regardless, I will replace it so I don't have to worry about it. My concern is the cylinder wall. It looks quite good considering what happened; there are only two little scratches just below the deck… I’ve seen bores that didn’t eat a valve look a lot worse. But even if the wall and the piston are fine, it’s still a 170k engine. It was running fine, not burning oil and had no lack of compression, but it still seems crazy to do anything to it without getting some proper measuring and machine work done.

Trick flow heads and cams only fit in the budget if I ignore all the other things I need. My cats were original and will be replaced, and I’m going to delete the P71 engine oil cooler while I have everything apart. I’ll need a new intake manifold, all gaskets, head bolts, timing components, fluids… suddenly a lot of that 4k budget is already spoken for.

Here’s an incomplete parts list. Sorry if I’m way off on any of the estimated prices.

Used PI Heads $800.00
Cams $600.00
Head Bolts $50.00
Felpro Gasket Kit $250.00
Water Pump $50.00
Intake Manifold $214.99
Pistons $150.00
Piston Rings $50.00
Underdrive Pulleys $239.95
Exhaust Manifold Gaskets $19.95
Downpipes (Cats) $479.90
Throttle body and plenum $269.00
Tune $100.00
Heater return tube
Replacement flywheel $200.00
Clutch $200.00
Civilian Oil Filter Adapter $110.00
Civilian lower coolant hose $30.00
Timing Chains and Tensioners $221.99

Coolant, Oil, PS fluid, trans fluid $120.00
Block bore/hone $250.00


Total: $4,405.78

Bond, good job placing the Olds from just a taillight! You’re correct, it’s a 1966 F-85 Deluxe. And Hassan, the corvette in the background is a ‘72. The Olds is in great shape, but the corvette is a disaster. It runs and drives but virtually nothing else works. It needs a body-off restoration, hence my small budget for the Crown Victoria. No matter how much time and money I dump into the Crown Vic, it will still be a $2000 dollar car that (almost) no one loves but me. Time and money put into the corvette will have a much better return… and there are more projects waiting after it.
_________________________
1997 CVPI
170k miles
5-speed swap, 3.73 trac-lok
BOC 91 Octane Tune

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#2903856 - 06/23/15 01:38 PM Re: A long awaited mild performance build [Re: walnutavenue]
Bondfreak13 Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 12/15/05
Posts: 4611
Loc: Ventura County, CA.
Thought so. My dad is a huge Oldsmobile nut so it rubbed off on me. We have a 68 442 holiday coupe we are restoring. Its been in the family for 30 years.

800 for PI heads seems a little high. They where in production from 99-14. Hit up some of the major mustang sites or craigslist, you'll find them all day long for under 400.

If you have to get the blocked worked, such as boring it out or honing it, compare it the cost to a cheap 4v short block. Because if you end up needing to punch out even .010 over you'll need new pistons. The 100lbs weight saving from the aluminum block alone will make it feel like a whole new car. Plus 12:1 compression with stock PI heads VS around 10.5:1 with just the normal PI swap. Its something to think about.


Edited by Bondfreak13 (06/23/15 03:23 PM)
_________________________
2003 Mercury Marauder (300AB Stock w/ over 200k miles)
2000 Crown Vic.

Intelligence is knowing that a tomato is a fruit, Wisdom is knowing not use a tomato in a fruit salad.

If your looking for a large comfortable ride with that Retro Feel without the Retro looks, then the Panther chassis is your Car. It's the best Modern car from 1979 you can buy.

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#2904110 - 06/24/15 09:00 PM Re: A long awaited mild performance build [Re: walnutavenue]
walnutavenue Offline
Member

Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 206
Loc: Illinois
I must apologize, because this build and this thread are taking a much less “modular high performance” turn. I was able to get a 2004 PI engine from a Grand Marquis very cheap, which I intended to strip for parts for the PI headswap. But if I set my non-PI block aside and use the complete PI engine I can save the cost of head bolts, head gaskets, intake manifold gaskets, boring/honing the non-PI block, new pistons, rod bolts and maybe more I’m not thinking of. I really want the compression bump of a PI headswap, but that’s a whole lot of dollars for an extra 10hp. For less money I can throw cams in the PI engine and get more performance (however, I’m going to pocket the savings for now.) I also need to keep in mind that the rest of the car is a rust infected heap that doesn’t really merit a really serious engine build. Much more power will probably twist my rusty frame into a pretzel. This car will get restored someday, and then will be the time to put more money into a better engine build.

Trouble is, I did my homework on a PI headswap. With the change of plan to a whole PI engine, I have a handful of questions about what parts from the NPI engine I keep, and what from the PI engine I use. I’m still getting my sh** together and trying to answer some of those for myself before I post it all here.

Bond, It's a non-issue now since I'm going to use a complete PI engine but I'm curious... would I want the 12:1 compression in a street car? I thought 10.5 or 11 was about the limit for readily available 93 octane.
_________________________
1997 CVPI
170k miles
5-speed swap, 3.73 trac-lok
BOC 91 Octane Tune

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#2904192 - 06/25/15 10:29 AM Re: A long awaited mild performance build [Re: walnutavenue]
walnutavenue Offline
Member

Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 206
Loc: Illinois
Right now I have the PI engine (an ’04) stripped down to the longblock plus the intake manifold and exhaust manifolds. All the parts removed from the NPI engine (a ’97) are spread out on the bench ready to be installed, but with many of the components I question which engine I should use the parts from:

Timing Cover: The ’04 cover lacks the hole to mount the passenger side coil pack, so it seems I should use the ’97 timing cover. Is there any reason that won’t work? The ’04 cover would also mean a different tensioner/idler layout, but I don’t think that makes any difference.

Crank trigger wheel: The crank position sensor looks exactly the same, but the trigger wheel is clearly different. Any reason to use one over the other?

EGR: On my ’97 engine the egr tube comes off the passenger side manifold and up to the plenum. On the ’04 engine it comes from the driver side manifold. I prefer to use the manifolds and tube from the ’04 because it saves me the trouble of swapping and the risk of breaking studs. With all other EGR related parts, I assume that I should use the ’97 parts because it ensures that my ’97 PCM and wiring harness will be entirely compatible. So, is there anything wrong with that plan?

Knock Sensors: Those two wires running into the valley are knock sensors right? I just leave those unplugged and forget about them?

Intake Manifold: The ’97 NPI intake has two sensors on the front coolant crossover, while the ’04 PI intake has only one. This will leave one plug of my ’97 harness with nowhere to plug in…

Plenum and Throttle Body: I plan to use the one off the ’97 so all the vacuum hoses line up.

Water Pump: I believe I need to use the ’97 water pump because it mounts the fan. The ’04 water pump does not accommodate the cooling fan.

Valve Covers: My ’04 PI engine had damaged valve covers so I want to use my ’97 covers. The bolt locations are the same, but the gasket is different. I assume that the ’97 valve covers can be used, but I will need gaskets for a ’97, not for an ’04.

Exhaust Manifolds: The exit angle of the ‘04 passenger side exhaust manifold is different from the ’97. I’m replacing the cats anyway so it’s not a big deal, but I assume I need to buy converters for an ’04 to correctly fit the manifolds.
_________________________
1997 CVPI
170k miles
5-speed swap, 3.73 trac-lok
BOC 91 Octane Tune

Top
#2904196 - 06/25/15 11:49 AM Re: A long awaited mild performance build [Re: walnutavenue]
chipdog4 Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 3089
Loc: SouthWest Indiana
I believe the 97 timing cover should work on the 04 block.

The crank trigger wheel: the old one is probably cast and the new one is stamped. There's a possibility of the cast one breaking, I'd run the stamped one.

EGR/ Exhaust manifolds: Probably need to stick with the 97.

Knock sensors: leave them in or take them out, whichever

Intake: Drilling and tapping for other coolant temp sensor is pretty easy.

Water Pump: ? Short shaft versus long shaft?

Valve covers: The newer ones are updated to hold the gasket better and shouldn't allow leaks as easily. Romeo NPI, Romeo PI, gaskets are the same.


You can find used aftermarket cams on Mustang website if you want the extra HP but want to save money...


Edited by chipdog4 (06/25/15 11:52 AM)
_________________________
99 LSE clone

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#2904220 - 06/25/15 02:10 PM Re: A long awaited mild performance build [Re: walnutavenue]
BigMerc96 Offline

I know nothing
Posting Addict

Registered: 06/05/10
Posts: 19868
Loc: I can see Detroit from here!
If the EGR is coming off of the drivers side manifold, then that engine is not from a Panther. Panther engines always had the EGR on the passenger side.
_________________________
-Steve

2006 Audi A6 ~132k miles, stock.
1998 Mercury Grand Marquis LS HPP ~100k miles, slowly acquiring modifications.
1997 Town Car Cartier ~145k miles, Ported Plenum, Gutted Airbox, Contour E-fan Retrofit, Dual exhaust with Magnaflows, cats deleted, MSD Ignition, KYB Gas-A-Justs, P71 front bar, air ride reinstated, Projector retrofit, Caddy 4-note horn retrofit, Wood rim steering wheel retrofit, holistic weight reduction as the parts fall off..
1996 Mercury Grand Marquis GS 117,485mi. R.I.P. 7/14/12 frown

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#2904237 - 06/25/15 04:54 PM Re: A long awaited mild performance build [Re: walnutavenue]
Allaa_Hassan Offline
Member

Registered: 12/30/11
Posts: 317
Loc: Mecca, Saudi Arabia
Regarding crank trigger wheel and crank timing gears






please read this

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2008/03/...misinformation/

You should use 04 crank gears and crank trigger wheel altogether



along with 04 timing chain guides




and 97 steel chain tensioners

_________________________
2004 Crown Victoria
Undergoing Build

Other Ride:
2000 P71 - SOLD
2008 Ford Explorer XLT 4WD V6 - Lifted & Loaded

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#2904288 - 06/25/15 10:39 PM Re: A long awaited mild performance build [Re: walnutavenue]
walnutavenue Offline
Member

Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 206
Loc: Illinois
Here are the water pumps. '97 is on the left and '04 is on the right. I understand the change in 2001 where shaft got shorter and the pulley shape changed. But the major issue is that the '04 pump doesn't have the threaded end for the mechanical cooling fan. At first I thought that was a P71 difference, but looking up replacement water pumps for each successive year; it appears the mechanical cooling fan was last used in '97.



BigMerc, I looked into the exhaust manifold EGR stuff:
Casting Numbers on my ’04 exhaust manifolds:
Passenger: RF-3W7E-9430-AD
Driver: RF-3W7E-9431-AG

Those are correct part numbers for OEM manifolds, which have the EGR tube connected on the driver side. Replacement manifolds for 2003-11 have the EGR port on the driver side. Manifolds from 2002 and older have the EGR port on the passenger side. Accordingly, Magnaflow direct fit converters are different parts for ’02 and older cars vs. ’03 and newer. I’m not trying to rock the boat; I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t know much about panthers unless it’s a ’97. But looking up replacement manifolds for progressive years of Crown Victorias shows a switch of the EGR port to the driver side in 2003.

But in addition, I had overlooked earlier that my '97 EGR tube has two lines that tap off of it and connect to the DPFE sensor. The EGR tube on the '04 engine does not have these two lines. So regardless of driver side vs. passenger side EGR tubes, I need to stick with my EGR tube and manifolds from the '97.

Hassan, thanks for that article. I hadn’t looked close enough at the crank sprockets to notice the difference in thickness and flanges. I took the timing cover off to check the condition of the chain guides, and when I found them in good condition I decided to leave all the timing components in place. I only considered using the old trigger wheel because I thought that it might matter for compatibility with the crank sensor. Now I know that it doesn’t… thanks! I’ll swap steel tensioners in since I have them.
_________________________
1997 CVPI
170k miles
5-speed swap, 3.73 trac-lok
BOC 91 Octane Tune

Top
#2904325 - 06/26/15 09:38 AM Re: A long awaited mild performance build [Re: walnutavenue]
Allaa_Hassan Offline
Member

Registered: 12/30/11
Posts: 317
Loc: Mecca, Saudi Arabia
Regarding the water pump, you better go with 5.4L water pump (navigator pump) Motorcraft PW-423





it is a long type water pump & it has better flow because of better larger impeller design (7 shrouded blades)


the pump to the left is 4.6L, & 5.4L pump is to the right

and the good news is that you can get Navi's pump cheep $30 with free shipping from ebay

_________________________
2004 Crown Victoria
Undergoing Build

Other Ride:
2000 P71 - SOLD
2008 Ford Explorer XLT 4WD V6 - Lifted & Loaded

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#2904360 - 06/26/15 01:28 PM Re: A long awaited mild performance build [Re: walnutavenue]
Chevyguy Offline

Poobah

Registered: 01/05/04
Posts: 9449
Loc: Winchester Mass
I have a chronicle of perseverance, this thread has a few others linked together to give the entire story, 2004 full PI swap into a 96 Town Car

https://www.crownvic.net/ubbthreads/ubbth...rue#Post2182043

I forgot about the water pump, I had to re-use the 96 one

Some comments

If the EGR is coming off of the drivers side manifold, then that engine is not from a Panther. Panther engines always had the EGR on the passenger side.

Nope-2003 up have the drivers side EGR supply, as such you need the 95-2002 style exhaust ....

Timing Cover: The ’04 cover lacks the hole to mount the passenger side coil pack, so it seems I should use the ’97 timing cover. Is there any reason that won’t work? The ’04 cover would also mean a different tensioner/idler layout, but I don’t think that makes any difference.

The 2000 up style tensioner wil route the belt into the coil pack bracket so you need to retain the 93-99 style cover


Crank trigger wheel: The crank position sensor looks exactly the same, but the trigger wheel is clearly different. Any reason to use one over the other?

Alla answered this perfect, I can add if you use the thick trigger on the PI style cam gear the trigger wheel binds against the timing cover....

EGR: On my ’97 engine the egr tube comes off the passenger side manifold and up to the plenum. On the ’04 engine it comes from the driver side manifold. I prefer to use the manifolds and tube from the ’04 because it saves me the trouble of swapping and the risk of breaking studs. With all other EGR related parts, I assume that I should use the ’97 parts because it ensures that my ’97 PCM and wiring harness will be entirely compatible. So, is there anything wrong with that plan?

You need the 97 everything to make the EGR work properly. More on the exhaust manifolds below

Knock Sensors: Those two wires running into the valley are knock sensors right? I just leave those unplugged and forget about them?

Correct and also need to leave alone the Cyl Head temp sensor on the drivers head though 97 MAY... have one

Intake Manifold: The ’97 NPI intake has two sensors on the front coolant crossover, while the ’04 PI intake has only one. This will leave one plug of my ’97 harness with nowhere to plug in…

The entire intake crossover unbolts and can be swapped to the PI intake providing you have the updated intake. You will need the plug wire bracket that came with the 96-97 intake update kit



Plenum and Throttle Body: I plan to use the one off the ’97 so all the vacuum hoses line up.

good

Water Pump: I believe I need to use the ’97 water pump because it mounts the fan. The ’04 water pump does not accommodate the cooling fan.

Get that 5.4 navigator pump or use the old one

Valve Covers: My ’04 PI engine had damaged valve covers so I want to use my ’97 covers. The bolt locations are the same, but the gasket is different. I assume that the ’97 valve covers can be used, but I will need gaskets for a ’97, not for an ’04.

The 03-05 style PCV is a big boy, you need the big hose elbow, and the Plenum even has a bigger nipple, this hung me up and I stuck with the old style covers



Exhaust Manifolds: The exit angle of the ‘04 passenger side exhaust manifold is different from the ’97. I’m replacing the cats anyway so it’s not a big deal, but I assume I need to buy converters for an ’04 to correctly fit the manifolds.
_________________________

03-up have a different frame, the exhaust won't fit. I re-used my 96 manifolds and cats

The old NPI block was handy for changing the exhaust studs

_________________________
2004 MarauderM79 155K miles Jmod!! Rockin Stock tune Daily, Muscle Merc tune for track 14.85 @95.63
2004 Crown Vic LX SOLD!!

New Daily 2016 Dodge Charger R/T Road and track, purchase with 16K now 23K after 3 months. 5.7 Hemi, 8 speed ZF trans 3.06 open rear 13.98 @ 99.2 mph 4740 lbs with driver!!

R.I.P Photobucket 10 years of hosting down the drain

Project car 74 Chevy Laguna type S-3, # match 400 SBC

Previous rides
93 P-71 2001 P-73, 94 TC Exec, 96 TC Signature, 04 LX

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#2904395 - 06/26/15 04:21 PM Re: A long awaited mild performance build [Re: walnutavenue]
walnutavenue Offline
Member

Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 206
Loc: Illinois
Awesome stuff Chevyguy! Those threads confirmed a lot of little things that I was going to do anyway but wasn't entirely sure about. Now I can proceed with confidence.

I've been working already on swapping the '04 exhaust manifolds for the '97 ones... which means that I have to deal with drilling and tapping new flange studs. Thanks for knowing that the '03 and newer exhaust would have hit my frame... that would have been an awful thing to find out when installing the engine.

I can't do the coolant crossover trick because I still have the original NPI intake with the plastic crossover. 170k miles and no coolant leak... do I win some kind of award for that? I'm comfortable with tapping a hole for the second coolant temp sensor on the driver side of the crossover. It begs the question; why does it need two sensors that (appear to) sense the same thing in nearly the same place?

I wasn't going to swap the oil pans but I see that you did. I'm happy to follow blindly because I know it worked for you but I'm curious, is there something that doesn't work with the newer pan? I thought I heard something about the PI pans having a sort of windage tray designed into them and wanted to take advantage of such. (I also saw that you swapped the oil pickup tube as well, which I will do).

Thanks again!
_________________________
1997 CVPI
170k miles
5-speed swap, 3.73 trac-lok
BOC 91 Octane Tune

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