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#193996 - 07/13/03 10:52 PM Interesting HO conversion tech info
88grandmarq Offline

4R70W rebuilder
Poobah

Registered: 07/10/02
Posts: 6717
Loc: Indiana
My car has been running poorly lately and I suspected there was faulty fuel injector. Since I am going to convert my stock motor to an HO, I upgraded the stock 14# injector to the HO 19# injectors. Keep in mind, my HO conversion is NOT done yet (I have E7 heads and HO upper intake, but not the cam installed..... yet)
I get the 19# injectors installed, the car starts and runs, but runs extremely rich. Obviously the stock ECM can NOT control the new, larger injectors. here are some pictures.
http://www.crownvicmuscle.com/eric_s/CIMG0006.JPG
http://www.crownvicmuscle.com/eric_s/CIMG0007.JPG
http://www.crownvicmuscle.com/eric_s/CIMG0008.JPG
(stock 14# injectors have a white/neutral top, 19# injectors have a orange top.)
I then installed HO MAP sensor, just to see if this made a change....... it did NOTHING, car ran the same.
Then I swap out the stock ECM with the HO ECM I have from a '88 HO Mustang w/automatic trans.
Surprisingly the car runs MUCH better and runs correctly, in other words no missing because of the different than HO firing order as most of us had theorized.
I did some reading in couple Ford Tech manuals. I discovered that both the HO and non-HO are termed SEFI or SFI, which means Sequential Electronic Fuel Injection. Basically meaning the ECM fires the injectors in a sequence or order. This makes sense, but after further reading I discovered the Sequence the fuel injectors are fired is Odd bank and even bank.
So, what does all this mean? Basically the ECM does not care what the fireing order of the engine is, because it fires the odd bank injectors then the even bank injectors.
According to this information, I should then be able to install an HO camshaft in my non-HO engine, change the ignition firing order on the distributor cap and the stock ECM will not know the difference and the car should run properly.

On a side note, I discoverd my cruise control does NOT work with the HO ECM installed. I like my cruise control, so..I have decided to install the HO cam this week, I have all the parts now.
What I am going to try is installing the HO cam and run the stock ECM and 14# injectors, just to see what happens.
I will keep you guys posted on what I discover.
_________________________
2011 P7B - retired Jay county Indiana Sheriffs car
2003 Lincoln Town Car Signature - 3.27 RAR, dual exhaust and J-mod - SOLD 09/2011
89 Crown Victoria LX- HPP Box - SOLD 09/2010
88 Grand Marquis LS - The original - Totaled 5/2006

I rebuild AODE/4R70W/4R75E Transmissions, check out my Facebook page for my latest project; https://www.facebook.com/Ford-transmission-repairs-Jmod-348414635312478/

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#193997 - 07/13/03 10:56 PM Re: Interesting HO conversion tech info
P71Times2 Offline
Poobah

Registered: 11/29/00
Posts: 6982
Interesting, good information....

_________________________
"Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit"




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#193998 - 07/13/03 11:01 PM Re: Interesting HO conversion tech info
Dave_W Offline
Climber

Registered: 08/25/02
Posts: 719
Loc: New Jersey
Great info. Thanks.
_________________________
1989 Crown Vic LX P74
5.0L EFI, AOD Trans
8.8 inch Rear with 3.08:1 Gears
107,296 miles
Class III hitch, Traded in January 2006. I Drove Acuras for 8 years and am now driving a 2008 Chrysler 300C with the HEMI.

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#193999 - 07/13/03 11:05 PM Re: Interesting HO conversion tech info
Zack rumph Offline
Member

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 443
Wow, that sounds interesting, I'm really looking forward to updates.
_________________________
"Garth, marraige is punishment for shoplifting in some countries. what about kids? does that say the same?

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#194000 - 07/13/03 11:24 PM Re: Interesting HO conversion tech info
N A Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 02/15/02
Posts: 1707
Loc: Massachusetts
You can't have a custom computer chip made and run the stock ECM?
_________________________
'90 Mercury Grand Marquis GS
65mm TB, 67mm Lightning EGR, GT40 intake with a ported lower, X-pipe with mandrel bent exhaust, Flowmaster 40s, Marauder tips.

stock 5.0, 123 rwhp and 239 rwtq
New drivetrain in the works.



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#194001 - 07/14/03 11:19 AM Re: Interesting HO conversion tech info
AOD Offline


Grand Poobah

Registered: 12/06/00
Posts: 11509
Loc: Asheville, North Carolina
what HO ECM did you get? was it for the Auto trans? was cruise an option? did the VSS sensor wiring change?

i'm kinda peeved at Ford now. so basically what you're saying is its not a full sequential fuel injection setup. its damn BATCH fire injection. boo. Ford probably felt they could call it 'sequential' because not ALL 8 injectors pulse together like a true batch setup.

can you verify this Eric?

very interesting find. although i'm not sure i'd want to use the non HO computer with an HO engine...just wouldn't give it the performance edge, imo. Also, what's the point in putting a new cam in there, if you're not going to be giving it more gas into the air fuel mixture? this is what you'd be doing if you run stock injectors with a hotter cam. i'm sure you know this anyway...

~AOD
_________________________

'85 2-Door Crown Victoria - Faster than the Sig Police!
302 HO, -0.022" E7 Heads, Weiand Intake, Edelbrock 1406 Carb, Mechanical Fuel Pump, HEI Distributor, 180* T-stat, Shift Kit, HO Governor, Lokar Cables, B&M Torq Master Converter, FRPP Trans Cooler, Mustang Headers, 2.25" Dual Exhaust, Flowtech H-pipe, Hooker AeroChamber Mufflers, 2.5" Side-Exit Exhaust, Police Shocks, Cut PI Front Springs in the Rear, PI Rear Sway Bar, 17" Sport Wheels, 245/50/Z17 Tires, 4.10 Rear End Gears, Trac Lok Diff
'15 Ford Taurus SHO '02 Jeep Liberty '95 Mazda Miata MX-5 '82 Honda MB5 Motorcycle

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#194002 - 07/14/03 12:23 PM Re: Interesting HO conversion tech info
shaman Offline
Member

Registered: 02/12/03
Posts: 250
One thing i don't understand is that cruise is vacuum controlled. If the harness is a direct swap(from what i understand) why would it be any different?
_________________________
87 Crown Vic owner, 98 altima driver

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#194003 - 07/14/03 11:26 PM Re: Interesting HO conversion tech info
SVT87 Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 1708
Loc: Orange County, CA
Cruise is partial vacum, partial electronic. The buttons on your steering wheel are connected to an electronic circuit which is also interconnected with the VSS (vehicle speed sensor).
_________________________
Matt

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#194004 - 07/15/03 04:57 AM Re: Interesting HO conversion tech info
bircky311 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 168
WOO HOO!!! you just saved me the purchase of a book! kinda. I'm still gonna buy it. anyway. to my memory, the newer (mass air maybe) HO computers fired in 4 batches. not posative. and uummm... what'd happen if I throw a comp for manual trans on an auto? don't they calculate load different or something, and what's that mean for me?
_________________________
'89 Grand Marquis. Realized the chassis is about shot, so I'm weaseling some time out of her 'fore the diff lets go, and she falls apart... for good

"Hot rodding a Grand Marquis is a little like making bourbon out of Geritol." said by John Phillips about the Mercury Marauder. Car and Driver, July 2002.

pics

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#194005 - 07/15/03 10:12 AM Re: Interesting HO conversion tech info
88grandmarq Offline

4R70W rebuilder
Poobah

Registered: 07/10/02
Posts: 6717
Loc: Indiana
Quote:

what HO ECM did you get? was it for the Auto trans? was cruise an option? did the VSS sensor wiring change?

i'm kinda peeved at Ford now. so basically what you're saying is its not a full sequential fuel injection setup. its damn BATCH fire injection. boo. Ford probably felt they could call it 'sequential' because not ALL 8 injectors pulse together like a true batch setup.

can you verify this Eric?

very interesting find. although i'm not sure i'd want to use the non HO computer with an HO engine...just wouldn't give it the performance edge, imo. Also, what's the point in putting a new cam in there, if you're not going to be giving it more gas into the air fuel mixture? this is what you'd be doing if you run stock injectors with a hotter cam. i'm sure you know this anyway...






Adam, I used a HO ECM from a '88 SD automatic Mustang.
Cruise control on the Mustang is completely mechanical, no electrical inputs, to my knowledge.
Cruise control on the my GM appears to be mechanical and electrical, I discovered a square 4 wire electrical connector in the back of the cruise servo.

Basically, if you want to run the Mustang ECM in your CV you will loose cruise control.
Another option is to use a ECM from a mid 80's mark 7
they were HO and the cruise control is run through the ECM
Most of those cars were speed density, though, so if you want to run MAF, thats not a good choice.

The cam swap is almost done, I am going to run the stock ECM and stock injectors for now and see what happens. I am also going to install an adjustable fuel pressure regulator, that might help some.
If the car runs lean, I will install the 19# injectors and either have a chip made for my stock ECM or try to find an ECM from a mark 7.
_________________________
2011 P7B - retired Jay county Indiana Sheriffs car
2003 Lincoln Town Car Signature - 3.27 RAR, dual exhaust and J-mod - SOLD 09/2011
89 Crown Victoria LX- HPP Box - SOLD 09/2010
88 Grand Marquis LS - The original - Totaled 5/2006

I rebuild AODE/4R70W/4R75E Transmissions, check out my Facebook page for my latest project; https://www.facebook.com/Ford-transmission-repairs-Jmod-348414635312478/

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#194006 - 07/15/03 10:23 AM Re: Interesting HO conversion tech info
AOD Offline


Grand Poobah

Registered: 12/06/00
Posts: 11509
Loc: Asheville, North Carolina
cool man, i like that you're going the SD route - as it will prove interesting and beneficial.

i still dont think you're going to see improvement running the stock injectors. the way to get more power from an engine is by adding more fuel and air. you have the capability to do that with the hotter cam, but when you're keeping the fuel mixture stock its not going to do anything for you. follow me?

of course, it will be 'interesting' to see what happens.

~AOD
_________________________

'85 2-Door Crown Victoria - Faster than the Sig Police!
302 HO, -0.022" E7 Heads, Weiand Intake, Edelbrock 1406 Carb, Mechanical Fuel Pump, HEI Distributor, 180* T-stat, Shift Kit, HO Governor, Lokar Cables, B&M Torq Master Converter, FRPP Trans Cooler, Mustang Headers, 2.25" Dual Exhaust, Flowtech H-pipe, Hooker AeroChamber Mufflers, 2.5" Side-Exit Exhaust, Police Shocks, Cut PI Front Springs in the Rear, PI Rear Sway Bar, 17" Sport Wheels, 245/50/Z17 Tires, 4.10 Rear End Gears, Trac Lok Diff
'15 Ford Taurus SHO '02 Jeep Liberty '95 Mazda Miata MX-5 '82 Honda MB5 Motorcycle

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#194007 - 07/15/03 10:32 AM Re: Interesting HO conversion tech info
Zack rumph Offline
Member

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 443
I think that is entirely the point, to see what happens.
_________________________
"Garth, marraige is punishment for shoplifting in some countries. what about kids? does that say the same?

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#194008 - 07/15/03 11:56 AM Re: Interesting HO conversion tech info
AOD Offline


Grand Poobah

Registered: 12/06/00
Posts: 11509
Loc: Asheville, North Carolina
i just hate swapping injectors...i've done it twice. i'm glad you have it in you to swap injectors 3 times...i get annoyed easily just having to remove the upper intake.

i did notice you put a new fuel rail on, that probably makes it easier. mine has been hammered too much.

~AOD
_________________________

'85 2-Door Crown Victoria - Faster than the Sig Police!
302 HO, -0.022" E7 Heads, Weiand Intake, Edelbrock 1406 Carb, Mechanical Fuel Pump, HEI Distributor, 180* T-stat, Shift Kit, HO Governor, Lokar Cables, B&M Torq Master Converter, FRPP Trans Cooler, Mustang Headers, 2.25" Dual Exhaust, Flowtech H-pipe, Hooker AeroChamber Mufflers, 2.5" Side-Exit Exhaust, Police Shocks, Cut PI Front Springs in the Rear, PI Rear Sway Bar, 17" Sport Wheels, 245/50/Z17 Tires, 4.10 Rear End Gears, Trac Lok Diff
'15 Ford Taurus SHO '02 Jeep Liberty '95 Mazda Miata MX-5 '82 Honda MB5 Motorcycle

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#194009 - 07/15/03 12:10 PM Re: Interesting HO conversion tech info
Petely Offline
Poobah

Registered: 06/26/03
Posts: 5164
Loc: Chicago, IL
HAHA, hammered. Wow, man, easy there. It is not that hard. To seat the fuel rail, i pushed the fuel on the injectors as much as I could by hand and then gently tightened the four screws until they kept the fuel rail in place but would move it you pushed on it. Then I took a piece of soft pine and notched it with a v notch. I would place this notch over the injector and gently tap the top of the notched board with the mallet. Once I seated that injector, I would continue to push down on the fuel rail and tighten the closest screw completely. Then I would repeat the process with the other injectors until all were seated. This did not damage the fuel rail which I agree seems kinda cheesy. Dunno if that will help anyone but if not have a bouncing lime.
_________________________
Peter
1987 Mercury Grand Marquis
*sold to some guy on cvn for $1
New Long List of Rules Compliant Sig

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#194010 - 07/15/03 01:04 PM Re: Interesting HO conversion tech info
AOD Offline


Grand Poobah

Registered: 12/06/00
Posts: 11509
Loc: Asheville, North Carolina
i guess i could have been more 'friendly' putting mine on. i did damage a few o-rings the first time which resulted in three injectors spraying fuel out after i keyed-on the first time.

i guess if i had to do the job again, i'd replace the rails. i think some of my injectors are leaking down after shutdown...i just dont feel like tearing everything off again.

~AOD
_________________________

'85 2-Door Crown Victoria - Faster than the Sig Police!
302 HO, -0.022" E7 Heads, Weiand Intake, Edelbrock 1406 Carb, Mechanical Fuel Pump, HEI Distributor, 180* T-stat, Shift Kit, HO Governor, Lokar Cables, B&M Torq Master Converter, FRPP Trans Cooler, Mustang Headers, 2.25" Dual Exhaust, Flowtech H-pipe, Hooker AeroChamber Mufflers, 2.5" Side-Exit Exhaust, Police Shocks, Cut PI Front Springs in the Rear, PI Rear Sway Bar, 17" Sport Wheels, 245/50/Z17 Tires, 4.10 Rear End Gears, Trac Lok Diff
'15 Ford Taurus SHO '02 Jeep Liberty '95 Mazda Miata MX-5 '82 Honda MB5 Motorcycle

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