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#4050654 - 03/07/20 10:18 AM Re: The Boxy Box Wagon [Re: Old_Guy_Stu]
Bellwestern80 Offline

CVN Discord: Edsel
Over the Hill

Registered: 07/01/11
Posts: 4125
Loc: Evans, Georgia
Originally Posted By Old_Guy_Stu
You need better valve springs and a real throttle body for an HO upgrade, too, right? Or did you already do them?

E7 heads, HO Upper, bored spacer, and HO TB were fitted during my head job when one of the E6s decided having an exhaust valve was irrelevant. I’ve been halfway there for a minute, I just didn’t have the camshaft, PCM, or injectors at that time.

That said, the ‘86 HO Mustang did use the same E6 heads as our cars, so if one were inclined, they could do the upgrade with the intake, cam, and things without the heads, but IIRC the E7s netted 25 extra HP. ‘86 was 200 HP and ‘87 was 225 HP.
_________________________

My Cars:
-1964 Mercury Comet 202 (116K Miles | 170 I6) - Restoration Project
-1986 Dodge D-150 Royale SE (112K Miles | 360 V8) - Waiting on a TorqueFlite
-1987 Mercury Colony Park LS (330K Miles | H.O. 302) - March 2017, November 2019, & September 2021 POTM Winner
-1997 Mercury Grand Marquis LS (230K Miles | nPI 4.6) - The Daily Workhorse & April 2013 POTM Winner

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#4050666 - 03/07/20 10:38 AM Re: The Boxy Box Wagon [Re: Bellwestern80]
Old_Guy_Stu Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 04/28/19
Posts: 2796
Loc: Cleveland, OH
So when you're done you'll have an extra 75 horsies. Sounds like a worthy project. Expect stupid questions from me.
_________________________

1988 CVLX Formal Roof (Love Boat) POTM July 2019, Aug 2020, & Oct 2021, 58K
E-code lights w/ relays, LEDs w/ switchbacks, 15x8 Ansen slots w/ 255/60 BFG's, Kenwood stereo, various hacks.
This, of course, was merely the semi-delirious notion of a fever-patient, but I remember that it struck me at the time as being eminently practical and feasible.

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#4050880 - 03/08/20 10:32 AM Re: The Boxy Box Wagon [Re: Old_Guy_Stu]
Bellwestern80 Offline

CVN Discord: Edsel
Over the Hill

Registered: 07/01/11
Posts: 4125
Loc: Evans, Georgia
Originally Posted By Old_Guy_Stu
So when you're done you'll have an extra 75 horsies. Sounds like a worthy project. Expect stupid questions from me.

No worries. I planned on having this done yesterday, but that didn't work out. The cam is in, timing cover mounted, and the lower intake is back on. Tomorrow I'll have another free day, so I'll try to button it up entirely and find out if the Mark VII PCM I got from the junkyard is still any good.
_________________________

My Cars:
-1964 Mercury Comet 202 (116K Miles | 170 I6) - Restoration Project
-1986 Dodge D-150 Royale SE (112K Miles | 360 V8) - Waiting on a TorqueFlite
-1987 Mercury Colony Park LS (330K Miles | H.O. 302) - March 2017, November 2019, & September 2021 POTM Winner
-1997 Mercury Grand Marquis LS (230K Miles | nPI 4.6) - The Daily Workhorse & April 2013 POTM Winner

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#4051244 - 03/10/20 01:29 AM Re: The Boxy Box Wagon [Re: Bellwestern80]
Bellwestern80 Offline

CVN Discord: Edsel
Over the Hill

Registered: 07/01/11
Posts: 4125
Loc: Evans, Georgia
I am not a fast worker. I did however get everything setup and was able to test fire the car. I started with the PCM just on top of the cruise servo since I wasn't sure if it was going to work properly or not, and figured if it was kaput from the onset, I wasn't going to deal with it being buried down on the firewall.


So the cool thing is it started up after futzing with the timing. I had it set around 10* ATDC after the initial distributor stab. I'll want to re-stab it since I've got it turned really hard towards the water neck, and I prefer it back a few notches.

The bad thing is it's tapping:


I'd like to suspect it's just a rocker arm not set right. Where the noise is the strongest is where I set a shim in place, and I suspect it's not right. I'm hoping it's not a lifter gone sour, since I'd really rather not have to yank the lower intake back off, after having just put it back on. I saved my old stamped rockers in case for some reason I have to abandon my roller ones.


I'll play with it next week, but for now, at least it's generally back together.
_________________________

My Cars:
-1964 Mercury Comet 202 (116K Miles | 170 I6) - Restoration Project
-1986 Dodge D-150 Royale SE (112K Miles | 360 V8) - Waiting on a TorqueFlite
-1987 Mercury Colony Park LS (330K Miles | H.O. 302) - March 2017, November 2019, & September 2021 POTM Winner
-1997 Mercury Grand Marquis LS (230K Miles | nPI 4.6) - The Daily Workhorse & April 2013 POTM Winner

Top
#4051256 - 03/10/20 06:45 AM Re: The Boxy Box Wagon [Re: Bellwestern80]
Old_Guy_Stu Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 04/28/19
Posts: 2796
Loc: Cleveland, OH
Well, that sucks. Definitely valvetrain noise.

Did you have to re-wire any injectors to make up for the HO firing order, or does the new ECM take care of that?
_________________________

1988 CVLX Formal Roof (Love Boat) POTM July 2019, Aug 2020, & Oct 2021, 58K
E-code lights w/ relays, LEDs w/ switchbacks, 15x8 Ansen slots w/ 255/60 BFG's, Kenwood stereo, various hacks.
This, of course, was merely the semi-delirious notion of a fever-patient, but I remember that it struck me at the time as being eminently practical and feasible.

Top
#4051290 - 03/10/20 09:09 AM Re: The Boxy Box Wagon [Re: Old_Guy_Stu]
BigMerc96 Offline

I know nothing
Posting Addict

Registered: 06/05/10
Posts: 19872
Loc: I can see Detroit from here!
Originally Posted By Old_Guy_Stu
Well, that sucks. Definitely valvetrain noise.

Did you have to re-wire any injectors to make up for the HO firing order, or does the new ECM take care of that?
AFAIK, the reason you swap to a HO ECM is because it already "knows" the new firing order. If this were a carb'd engine, you'd just swap plug wires accordingly. I suppose you probably could just switch the injector output wires on the ECM and the plug wires on the dizzy and in theory it should run, but I highly doubt the LoPo ECM would be happy with the massive increase in airflow and would probably go apeshit unless you chipped/reprogrammed it. That's certainly doable, there are still guys out there tuning EEC-IV stuff, but for a simple HO swap its easier to just get a HO computer at least now while you can still find them. As Bellwestern80 has shown, the old EEC-IV stuff is starting to suffer from failing caps on the main boards which is making them harder to find in working order on top of just the age of them.
_________________________
-Steve

2006 Audi A6 ~132k miles, stock.
1998 Mercury Grand Marquis LS HPP ~100k miles, slowly acquiring modifications.
1997 Town Car Cartier ~145k miles, Ported Plenum, Gutted Airbox, Contour E-fan Retrofit, Dual exhaust with Magnaflows, cats deleted, MSD Ignition, KYB Gas-A-Justs, P71 front bar, air ride reinstated, Projector retrofit, Caddy 4-note horn retrofit, Wood rim steering wheel retrofit, holistic weight reduction as the parts fall off..
1996 Mercury Grand Marquis GS 117,485mi. R.I.P. 7/14/12 frown

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#4051542 - 03/10/20 11:29 PM Re: The Boxy Box Wagon [Re: BigMerc96]
Bellwestern80 Offline

CVN Discord: Edsel
Over the Hill

Registered: 07/01/11
Posts: 4125
Loc: Evans, Georgia
Originally Posted By BigMerc96
Originally Posted By Old_Guy_Stu
Well, that sucks. Definitely valvetrain noise.

Did you have to re-wire any injectors to make up for the HO firing order, or does the new ECM take care of that?
AFAIK, the reason you swap to a HO ECM is because it already "knows" the new firing order. If this were a carb'd engine, you'd just swap plug wires accordingly. I suppose you probably could just switch the injector output wires on the ECM and the plug wires on the dizzy and in theory it should run, but I highly doubt the LoPo ECM would be happy with the massive increase in airflow and would probably go apeshit unless you chipped/reprogrammed it. That's certainly doable, there are still guys out there tuning EEC-IV stuff, but for a simple HO swap its easier to just get a HO computer at least now while you can still find them. As Bellwestern80 has shown, the old EEC-IV stuff is starting to suffer from failing caps on the main boards which is making them harder to find in working order on top of just the age of them.



Yup, no need to re-wire anything. As per the FAQ...
Originally Posted By HO Conversion FAQ

Common misconceptions:
1. Wiring. There are NO changes to the wiring for the HO conversion.
2. Wiring . There are NO changes to the wiring!


BigMerc essentially nailed it with the major factor being the HO PCM handles the injector firing order (along with being tuned properly to work with the different cam and change in airflow for the speed density system). Trying to make a LoPo PC run the show via rewiring would probably result in a very poorly running car.

I am definitely concerned for the remaining service life of any PCM of the EEC-IV era that hasn't been inspected. Early EEC-V stuff may even start looking bad in the next 5 to 7 years at the current rate. I've re-capped my LoPo board, the HO board, and even the one for the '97. Since I don't have the means to apply the conformal coating to the board, I use liquid electrical tape, so that at least the circuitry is somewhat protected again. The last EEC-IV board I had that was failing out had a completely ruined capacitor, and the car would run sometimes, and if it did run, it was poor, running very rich with no power. In that case, the fuel pump kept priming continuously, and was the first sign was something up after the relay to it was replaced. Unfortunately, re-capping had no effected and that board was toast.

That said, it's not a quality issue for the capacitors starting to go now, but just an age thing. From most of my reading, stated lifespan of most capacitors is about 20-30 years. Boxes are well into that, along with even the newest Aeros. I doubt we're about to see all of these cars just up and quit, but I think we might start seeing some actual (not BS ones from "mechanics" who blame '80s ECUs for everything) ECU failures from capacitors failing. Re-capping the boards aren't hard, just takes a little time.
_________________________

My Cars:
-1964 Mercury Comet 202 (116K Miles | 170 I6) - Restoration Project
-1986 Dodge D-150 Royale SE (112K Miles | 360 V8) - Waiting on a TorqueFlite
-1987 Mercury Colony Park LS (330K Miles | H.O. 302) - March 2017, November 2019, & September 2021 POTM Winner
-1997 Mercury Grand Marquis LS (230K Miles | nPI 4.6) - The Daily Workhorse & April 2013 POTM Winner

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#4051738 - 03/12/20 07:32 AM Re: The Boxy Box Wagon [Re: Bellwestern80]
Old_Guy_Stu Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 04/28/19
Posts: 2796
Loc: Cleveland, OH
I was wondering about capacitor failure. That's a big topic on one of the vintage hi-fi forums I'm on. But nobody seems to know if they degrade simply with time, or with power cycles. My 42-year-old Pioneer tape deck is still going strong on its original caps, but it was stored for many years (like my Vic was). The deck it replaced in 2010 was in daily use and ate its power-supply caps.

So if you have two identical caps, both 30 years old, one in use and one in storage, will they both fail at 30 years? Or does the one in use go first? Or is it just a crapshoot?
_________________________

1988 CVLX Formal Roof (Love Boat) POTM July 2019, Aug 2020, & Oct 2021, 58K
E-code lights w/ relays, LEDs w/ switchbacks, 15x8 Ansen slots w/ 255/60 BFG's, Kenwood stereo, various hacks.
This, of course, was merely the semi-delirious notion of a fever-patient, but I remember that it struck me at the time as being eminently practical and feasible.

Top
#4051750 - 03/12/20 09:02 AM Re: The Boxy Box Wagon [Re: Bellwestern80]
Bellwestern80 Offline

CVN Discord: Edsel
Over the Hill

Registered: 07/01/11
Posts: 4125
Loc: Evans, Georgia
I’d say age and power cycles coupled with environmental factors will affect longevity.
_________________________

My Cars:
-1964 Mercury Comet 202 (116K Miles | 170 I6) - Restoration Project
-1986 Dodge D-150 Royale SE (112K Miles | 360 V8) - Waiting on a TorqueFlite
-1987 Mercury Colony Park LS (330K Miles | H.O. 302) - March 2017, November 2019, & September 2021 POTM Winner
-1997 Mercury Grand Marquis LS (230K Miles | nPI 4.6) - The Daily Workhorse & April 2013 POTM Winner

Top
#4051762 - 03/12/20 09:50 AM Re: The Boxy Box Wagon [Re: Bellwestern80]
BigMerc96 Offline

I know nothing
Posting Addict

Registered: 06/05/10
Posts: 19872
Loc: I can see Detroit from here!
Originally Posted By Bellwestern80
I’d say age and power cycles coupled with environmental factors will affect longevity.
Pretty much, at least for electrolytic caps. There is also the load its under, caps that deal with an oscillating signal, especially high frequency/high voltage (like in a switch mode power supply), are going to fail more quickly, they heat up and that kills them. Now if you go real old, where you're dealing with caps that have paper in them, the paper becomes acidic and causes resistance across the cap which is not supposed to be there pretty much regardless of how the cap was used/stored. Of course the initial quality of the caps is also a factor, a cheap product is going to have lower quality caps that will fail early. That almost certainly isn't the case of a ECU, they were made by Motorola and expense would not have been spared, they would have used the best components available to them at the time. That is proven by the fact that they are still functioning 30+ years later, even if there certainly are some that are starting to fail.
_________________________
-Steve

2006 Audi A6 ~132k miles, stock.
1998 Mercury Grand Marquis LS HPP ~100k miles, slowly acquiring modifications.
1997 Town Car Cartier ~145k miles, Ported Plenum, Gutted Airbox, Contour E-fan Retrofit, Dual exhaust with Magnaflows, cats deleted, MSD Ignition, KYB Gas-A-Justs, P71 front bar, air ride reinstated, Projector retrofit, Caddy 4-note horn retrofit, Wood rim steering wheel retrofit, holistic weight reduction as the parts fall off..
1996 Mercury Grand Marquis GS 117,485mi. R.I.P. 7/14/12 frown

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#4051908 - 03/12/20 11:44 PM Re: The Boxy Box Wagon [Re: Bellwestern80]
Bellwestern80 Offline

CVN Discord: Edsel
Over the Hill

Registered: 07/01/11
Posts: 4125
Loc: Evans, Georgia
After getting some pointers on GMN and re-reading the instructions with the rockers (missed the very important supplemental second page), I got the pre-load fixed on the rockers. Cylinder 6's exhaust rocker only had a quarter of a turn before being at the correct torque. Crane and everyone else states on the use of pedestal rockers like ours, proper pre-load is found by starting at zero lash and then having the rocker bolt hit the correct torque within 1/2 to 1 turn. A few of mine needed a very thin shim, otherwise most went on without any trouble.

Fired it up, and no more clackity-clack! It is idling a bit high, around 850 in park and 650 in drive. Probably need to adjust base idle and adjust the TPS to compensate. I also need to do a slight TV cable adjustment, as it's going into O/D around 45 vs 50. Not a terribly big deal, just the shifts are little softer. I did check to make sure it wasn't engaging O/D extremely early, and found the lowest it would go into O/D was about 43 MPH with barely any throttle input. Any lower than that, I might be more concerned to immediately make an adjustment.

Needless to say, it runs a hell of a lot smoother than the LoPo with a lot of HO upper equipment. Wonder if the fuel mileage might get a little bit better too. Ever since it got the heads and intake, it was a real dog on mileage, and would barely break 17 MPG on the highway as where with the full LoPo dress, it would do 21 MPG. It certainly has nicer pickup in general driving.

As far as really getting it, there's not much to report for off the line punches. It launches like a nPI Aero with 2.73s, however once you get it up above 1800 RPM, then the cam starts doing its thing and it pulls right up to about 4800 RPM. I do need to get the HO shift governor since the AOD wants to kneecap the shifts at the LoPo standard 4K. When doing the AOD-shuffle, you can get it to really shine. It pulled easily up to 80, but I decided going further than that probably wasn't worth the jail time. smile

I'm going to cruise it the next few days and see if I have any problems during the initial shake down.
_________________________

My Cars:
-1964 Mercury Comet 202 (116K Miles | 170 I6) - Restoration Project
-1986 Dodge D-150 Royale SE (112K Miles | 360 V8) - Waiting on a TorqueFlite
-1987 Mercury Colony Park LS (330K Miles | H.O. 302) - March 2017, November 2019, & September 2021 POTM Winner
-1997 Mercury Grand Marquis LS (230K Miles | nPI 4.6) - The Daily Workhorse & April 2013 POTM Winner

Top
#4052620 - 03/17/20 12:25 AM Re: The Boxy Box Wagon [Re: Bellwestern80]
Bellwestern80 Offline

CVN Discord: Edsel
Over the Hill

Registered: 07/01/11
Posts: 4125
Loc: Evans, Georgia
The short summary is all of my driveability issues I've had for months all up and disappeared. It's great.

Drove the car up to Columbia to see how it did on the interstate, and it did very well. Plenty of passing power when requested, otherwise it cruised fine. Definitely handled hills better and never really lost any speed on climbs. The LoPo stick made it wheezy on steeper or longer grades and it didn't like having to pick up past 75, but now that's old news.

The best way I can describe it is not power that tosses you into your seat, but just general pulling power that's there when you ask, much like a 4.6 car but with more torque. It reminds me much of the '97 of just being able to call for speed and steadily moving out. It's just having to wait for the AOD to respond is the only difference. laugh

I did find some information regarding idle speeds, and acceptable idle speeds for the Mark VII are higher than the Marquis listing. Ford had acceptable idle speed in drive between 550-700 RPM on the Mark VII. Once the engine is warmed up and you draw up to a stoplight, it'll idle at right under 700, and then slowly creep down to about 600-550, but doesn't drop off beyond that.

Regarding my old driveability issues, I had a few "cold" problems. The first issue was on a cold start, the initial giving it any throttle it would usually bog, then come back to life. Everything was adjusted right, it just did that. Second was hunting idle when cold. It would try idling up to 800 from 600 in drive and keep doing that, so I'd have to pop it in neutral at red lights since it was a very annoying hitching sensation. Third was once it was warm and you stopped for a light, it would idle at about 600, then drop under 500 and it would stumble and felt like it was misfiring. The dash would flicker with the engine speed jumping around. It would immediately stop the moment it received any gas. I dealt with that for months. It's quite nice not dealing with the wacky quirks. I suspect the LoPo PCM didn't jive all that well with the HO upper equipment and E7 heads. Maybe just a bit too much air. I know the HO upper works fine, and I think someone ran E7s with a LoPo upper, but I don't know if anyone ran my setup on a LoPo.
_________________________

My Cars:
-1964 Mercury Comet 202 (116K Miles | 170 I6) - Restoration Project
-1986 Dodge D-150 Royale SE (112K Miles | 360 V8) - Waiting on a TorqueFlite
-1987 Mercury Colony Park LS (330K Miles | H.O. 302) - March 2017, November 2019, & September 2021 POTM Winner
-1997 Mercury Grand Marquis LS (230K Miles | nPI 4.6) - The Daily Workhorse & April 2013 POTM Winner

Top
#4052644 - 03/17/20 07:34 AM Re: The Boxy Box Wagon [Re: Bellwestern80]
Old_Guy_Stu Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 04/28/19
Posts: 2796
Loc: Cleveland, OH
So... do it all or don't do anything. Gotcha.

Were there any power improvements with the half-HO setup to make up for the poor driveability ?
_________________________

1988 CVLX Formal Roof (Love Boat) POTM July 2019, Aug 2020, & Oct 2021, 58K
E-code lights w/ relays, LEDs w/ switchbacks, 15x8 Ansen slots w/ 255/60 BFG's, Kenwood stereo, various hacks.
This, of course, was merely the semi-delirious notion of a fever-patient, but I remember that it struck me at the time as being eminently practical and feasible.

Top
#4052980 - 03/18/20 05:58 PM Re: The Boxy Box Wagon [Re: Old_Guy_Stu]
Bellwestern80 Offline

CVN Discord: Edsel
Over the Hill

Registered: 07/01/11
Posts: 4125
Loc: Evans, Georgia
Originally Posted By Old_Guy_Stu
So... do it all or don't do anything. Gotcha.

Were there any power improvements with the half-HO setup to make up for the poor driveability ?

Better throttle response.

So many folks say tossing the HO upper intake and TB usually help out on the LoPo for letting it breath a bit better.

If I had to guess, the extra air flow through the intake and heads may have mildly upset the speed density system.
_________________________

My Cars:
-1964 Mercury Comet 202 (116K Miles | 170 I6) - Restoration Project
-1986 Dodge D-150 Royale SE (112K Miles | 360 V8) - Waiting on a TorqueFlite
-1987 Mercury Colony Park LS (330K Miles | H.O. 302) - March 2017, November 2019, & September 2021 POTM Winner
-1997 Mercury Grand Marquis LS (230K Miles | nPI 4.6) - The Daily Workhorse & April 2013 POTM Winner

Top
#4053066 - 03/19/20 08:00 AM Re: The Boxy Box Wagon [Re: Bellwestern80]
Old_Guy_Stu Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 04/28/19
Posts: 2796
Loc: Cleveland, OH
So you can use the HO upper with the lo-po lower? Reason I ask, I gotta do valve cover gaskets soon. And if the upper has to come off to do that, might as well upgrade. Mustang upper & throttle body bolt on?

EDIT: Looks like a Mustang throttle body has the wrong throttle lever (because it's mounted on the passenger side), and it's pressed on. How do you get around that?

Told ya, dumbass questions.


Edited by Old_Guy_Stu (03/19/20 08:15 AM)
_________________________

1988 CVLX Formal Roof (Love Boat) POTM July 2019, Aug 2020, & Oct 2021, 58K
E-code lights w/ relays, LEDs w/ switchbacks, 15x8 Ansen slots w/ 255/60 BFG's, Kenwood stereo, various hacks.
This, of course, was merely the semi-delirious notion of a fever-patient, but I remember that it struck me at the time as being eminently practical and feasible.

Top
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