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#4077656 - 09/14/20 11:10 PM 2004 CVPI Misfire - Guidance?
SportBikePilot Offline

n00b

Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 23
Loc: Southern California
Hello group! Long time since I've posted.

Still driving my '97 and he's doing well, just turned over 256k.

Decided I wanted a CVPI in our motor pool at the railway museum. Bought an all-white 2004 from a guy for $1k.

First off, I bought it with full knowledge of the issues with it.

Car has logged codes P0316, P0302 and P0300 and idles like crap. Rough on the getgo as well. Intermittent flashing check engine light at idle, otherwise on steady.

Doesn't seem to have much trouble getting to 90MPH+ (I can only afford so much for a speeding ticket) on the freeway though, and the flashing check engine light only appears to show up at idle. But it idles ROUGH, and kinda "chugs" up hills at slower speeds.

Not seeing any white smoke out of the tailpipe, not hearing any weird noises or smelling any strange smells or any of that.

This car was purchased with the intent of it living the rest of its life as an emergency response vehicle on a privately owned 110 acre railway museum, and would be non-op for street use, so it's not like I need it to be a high performance vehicle.

But I would sure like to get it to idle smoother and get rid of the misfire/crankshaft codes. Other than those codes it didn't have anything logged.

Previous owner claims he replaced the COPs.

Did the 2004's have the intake manifold issue? I remember when my '97 started misfiring, turned out to be the crap plastic intake manifold, then the misfiring caused a coil pack to fail. That all got replaced to much happiness.

Appreciate any educated replies. As the admin recently said, guesses and uneducated responses don't help anyone.

Thanks for the help.

Chris


Edited by MotoXkid (09/14/20 11:10 PM)
_________________________
Owner: 1997 CVPI "The Round"
Keeper: 2004 CVPI "The Polar Bear"

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#4077674 - 09/15/20 12:09 AM Re: 2004 CVPI Misfire - Guidance? [Re: SportBikePilot]
Davidzq Offline
Member

Registered: 01/19/15
Posts: 192
Loc: Seattle, WA
P0316 - Misfire at startup
P0302 - Misfire cylinder 2
P0300 - Multiple misfires

Given that it is only at idle, my first suspect is a dirty IAC valve. Clean it. Also clean the MAF and throttle body. Also replace the fuel and air filters.
Also cheap COPs have a habit of frequently being bad out of the box. Try swapping that #2 coil with another cylinder and see if the code moves.
Check for any coolant or oil in the spark plugs wells.

As for the intake manifold, all 96+ are subject to it. Plastic intake manifolds are cheaper, but only last around 150k miles.
Luckily they're cheap and easy. You can get a Ford replacement for $187 from Rascal, RockAuto, etc. I don't recommend getting the Doorman (or any of the other 20 brands that rebadge the Doorman), they tend to fail pretty quickly.
_________________________
David Hensley
Member of Northwest Panthers Car Club

2007 P71, Norsea Blue SAP
-Jmod
-Message Center cluster retrofit
-All interior lighting converted to blue
-Lincoln towncar seats, heated and power passenger
-Self installed Compustar remote start/security
-Full dynamat install
-Full interior swap from tan to charcoal
-Trailer hitch/light controller/AirLift assist bags
-Headlight relay mod

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#4077676 - 09/15/20 12:13 AM Re: 2004 CVPI Misfire - Guidance? [Re: SportBikePilot]
SportBikePilot Offline

n00b

Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 23
Loc: Southern California
David,

Much obliged for the reply. This gives me some good places to start. I'm really hoping the engine isn't shot... Whats the likelihood of that?

Chris
_________________________
Owner: 1997 CVPI "The Round"
Keeper: 2004 CVPI "The Polar Bear"

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#4077680 - 09/15/20 02:47 AM Re: 2004 CVPI Misfire - Guidance? [Re: SportBikePilot]
Davidzq Offline
Member

Registered: 01/19/15
Posts: 192
Loc: Seattle, WA
Given that the only symptom is a rough idle caused by misfires... The engine is not shot.
If the engine was shot, you wouldn't make it to 30mph,let alone 90!
_________________________
David Hensley
Member of Northwest Panthers Car Club

2007 P71, Norsea Blue SAP
-Jmod
-Message Center cluster retrofit
-All interior lighting converted to blue
-Lincoln towncar seats, heated and power passenger
-Self installed Compustar remote start/security
-Full dynamat install
-Full interior swap from tan to charcoal
-Trailer hitch/light controller/AirLift assist bags
-Headlight relay mod

Top
#4077704 - 09/15/20 09:57 AM Re: 2004 CVPI Misfire - Guidance? [Re: SportBikePilot]
SportBikePilot Offline

n00b

Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 23
Loc: Southern California
Excellent. Thanks for the reassurance, David!

I'll keep you posted on how I make out. I appreciate your help.

Best,

Chris
_________________________
Owner: 1997 CVPI "The Round"
Keeper: 2004 CVPI "The Polar Bear"

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#4077798 - 09/15/20 08:12 PM Re: 2004 CVPI Misfire - Guidance? [Re: SportBikePilot]
SportBikePilot Offline

n00b

Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 23
Loc: Southern California
Thus far I have swapped the COP from an adjacent cylinder and am still having the same issue. Unplugging and plugging in the Cyl #2 COP connector has no change in engine performance, still rough/missing. Plug appears to be OK visually.

Is there a way to meter the COP connector from the harness to see if it's even receiving voltage?
_________________________
Owner: 1997 CVPI "The Round"
Keeper: 2004 CVPI "The Polar Bear"

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#4077804 - 09/15/20 08:18 PM Re: 2004 CVPI Misfire - Guidance? [Re: SportBikePilot]
Davidzq Offline
Member

Registered: 01/19/15
Posts: 192
Loc: Seattle, WA
You should have constant power on the red wire (or was it white/red... 🤔) with key on.
PCM pulses a ground connection on the other wire to fire the coil.

Injectors work the same way, so check those too.

Red, or white/red... One is the power on coils, other is power on injectors, my brain is mixing them up right now. 😛
_________________________
David Hensley
Member of Northwest Panthers Car Club

2007 P71, Norsea Blue SAP
-Jmod
-Message Center cluster retrofit
-All interior lighting converted to blue
-Lincoln towncar seats, heated and power passenger
-Self installed Compustar remote start/security
-Full dynamat install
-Full interior swap from tan to charcoal
-Trailer hitch/light controller/AirLift assist bags
-Headlight relay mod

Top
#4077816 - 09/15/20 08:57 PM Re: 2004 CVPI Misfire - Guidance? [Re: SportBikePilot]
SportBikePilot Offline

n00b

Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 23
Loc: Southern California
OK. I was seeing the pulses and the steady +12VDC, so that's working. Injector (and the one adjacent to it) appeared to have a steady +12V across the two pins.

Definitely a dead hole, I can feel sucking on the exhaust pipe when I put my hand over either one.

The plug from the malfunctioning cylinder didn't look obviously screwed up, it was darkened but not oily or corroded or fouled or anything.

Additionally, I didn't see any sign of coolant in the two spark plug cavities I looked in.

I also pulled the crankshaft position sensor and cleaned it and put it in, no change though. Also no change when the connector was disconnected with the engine running. Should it make a difference?


Edited by MotoXkid (09/15/20 08:59 PM)
_________________________
Owner: 1997 CVPI "The Round"
Keeper: 2004 CVPI "The Polar Bear"

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#4077820 - 09/15/20 09:22 PM Re: 2004 CVPI Misfire - Guidance? [Re: SportBikePilot]
Davidzq Offline
Member

Registered: 01/19/15
Posts: 192
Loc: Seattle, WA
Yeah, no difference generally means that cylinder is dead. Engine should get worse with it unplugged.

You can pull the plug out, hook it up to the coil (still plugged in). Ground out the base of the spark plug, and watch to see if it's sparking.
If it is, start looking at the injector.
_________________________
David Hensley
Member of Northwest Panthers Car Club

2007 P71, Norsea Blue SAP
-Jmod
-Message Center cluster retrofit
-All interior lighting converted to blue
-Lincoln towncar seats, heated and power passenger
-Self installed Compustar remote start/security
-Full dynamat install
-Full interior swap from tan to charcoal
-Trailer hitch/light controller/AirLift assist bags
-Headlight relay mod

Top
#4077826 - 09/15/20 09:34 PM Re: 2004 CVPI Misfire - Guidance? [Re: Davidzq]
SportBikePilot Offline

n00b

Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 23
Loc: Southern California
You don't think this could be a compression or valve issue, do you? The engine can be run with the spark plug out of it for testing against a ground?
_________________________
Owner: 1997 CVPI "The Round"
Keeper: 2004 CVPI "The Polar Bear"

Top
#4077830 - 09/15/20 09:59 PM Re: 2004 CVPI Misfire - Guidance? [Re: SportBikePilot]
Davidzq Offline
Member

Registered: 01/19/15
Posts: 192
Loc: Seattle, WA
It could be, which is why we're going to test.
First we'll rule out ignition, then fuel, then we'll check compression.

No harm will come from having the plug out.
Unplug the injector just to be safe.
_________________________
David Hensley
Member of Northwest Panthers Car Club

2007 P71, Norsea Blue SAP
-Jmod
-Message Center cluster retrofit
-All interior lighting converted to blue
-Lincoln towncar seats, heated and power passenger
-Self installed Compustar remote start/security
-Full dynamat install
-Full interior swap from tan to charcoal
-Trailer hitch/light controller/AirLift assist bags
-Headlight relay mod

Top
#4077834 - 09/15/20 10:05 PM Re: 2004 CVPI Misfire - Guidance? [Re: SportBikePilot]
SportBikePilot Offline

n00b

Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 23
Loc: Southern California
OK. I'll give it a whack tomorrow after work and report back. Is there anything else you'd like me to test while I'm in there? Let me know!

If it's valve/compression related, is that a huge deal to fix? We'll be working on this ourselves, no dealer/shop involved unless absolutely necessary. We've got some good mechanical guys at the museum.
_________________________
Owner: 1997 CVPI "The Round"
Keeper: 2004 CVPI "The Polar Bear"

Top
#4078334 - Yesterday at 10:46 AM Re: 2004 CVPI Misfire - Guidance? [Re: SportBikePilot]
SportBikePilot Offline

n00b

Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 23
Loc: Southern California
So after some major investigation into this, it appears something is bad wrong with either the piston or rings or associated parts. There were tiny metal shavings under the valve cover, and the cylinder had ZERO compression. We brought the engine to TDC and pressurized it and found it was leaking somewhere, audibly, but not out of the intake or exhaust, no bubbles in the radiator and no gurgling in the oil filler.

Trying to remove the head proved a waste of time as we don't have the necessary tools to do it properly. After hitting the point of diminishing returns and having ripped most of the engine apart to get to the head, we decided screw it, lets just replace the engine since this is getting stupid very quickly.

Found a crashed 2004 Crown Vic LX with an engine in it for $400. Best part is I was able to bring one of our engine guys out and he read all the advanced (Mode 6) codes out of the engine and we were able to start it and hear it run, etc. before it was removed from the crashed vehicle.

So that's what we're doing. Putting the LX engine into the CVPI. Any issues with that? They are the same model year...

Thanks,

Chris
_________________________
Owner: 1997 CVPI "The Round"
Keeper: 2004 CVPI "The Polar Bear"

Top
#4078352 - Yesterday at 12:52 PM Re: 2004 CVPI Misfire - Guidance? [Re: SportBikePilot]
Davidzq Offline
Member

Registered: 01/19/15
Posts: 192
Loc: Seattle, WA
Bummer! Looks like it turned out to be worst case scenario after all. A compression test was the next thing to do on the list.

And yeah, usually when the engine loses compression, it is not worth fixing, as a used 4.6 is cheap and easy to find.

In terms of the motor swap, there is absolutely no difference between the LX and P71 motor.
The only things you will need to do is swap the oil cooler/filter adapter (as the LX does not have the attachments for the oil cooler), or delete the oil cooler.
You may also need to swap the flex plate, as the P71 uses a 11.25" torque converter, while the LX has a 12", which have different bolt patterns. I believe it wasn't until 05 that they started using flexplates drilled for both. But I recommend installing a new flex plate anyways, as they do wear out and eventually crack/break.
_________________________
David Hensley
Member of Northwest Panthers Car Club

2007 P71, Norsea Blue SAP
-Jmod
-Message Center cluster retrofit
-All interior lighting converted to blue
-Lincoln towncar seats, heated and power passenger
-Self installed Compustar remote start/security
-Full dynamat install
-Full interior swap from tan to charcoal
-Trailer hitch/light controller/AirLift assist bags
-Headlight relay mod

Top
#4078354 - Yesterday at 01:04 PM Re: 2004 CVPI Misfire - Guidance? [Re: SportBikePilot]
SportBikePilot Offline

n00b

Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 23
Loc: Southern California
OK. While I'm sure we'll see it when the time comes, how does the oil cooler swap over? Is it just an extension of the filter, or ?

This vehicle isn't going anywhere but on our 110 acre private property, it'll never hit over 30mph, so we aren't going for the high score with replacing parts. Especially since this all coming out of my personal pocket smile

I just threw up my hands with our crew trying to remove the head off of the failed bank, and told everyone "we're just going to replace this". Happens a guy in the next town over had a wrecked LX with the engine we apparently needed, and it was great to hear it run and pull the codes. Only thing wrong with it was a broken valve cover, and a replacement is included.

Tell me a bit more about what we need to swap over?

Thanks,

Chris
_________________________
Owner: 1997 CVPI "The Round"
Keeper: 2004 CVPI "The Polar Bear"

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