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#4127352 - 11/10/21 05:45 AM Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices [Re: Tenevic_P71]
Moby_Vic Online   content

Cynical Idealist
Metroplectic

Registered: 01/27/02
Posts: 62279
Loc: Central Florida
Not auction related, but I had a guy (driving a 392 Hemi Charger) offer me $6K for my car while I was stopped at a traffic light! He noticed the boost gauge on my A pillar and started asking me about the car.
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#4127362 - 11/10/21 09:57 AM Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices [Re: Dmblanch]
Armada Master Offline
Banned
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Registered: 11/14/04
Posts: 19523
Loc: Houston, TX
Originally Posted By Dmblanch

Those are my thoughts anwyay. Now we wait for the poobahs to tell me I'm wrong on each and every count.



I've had slightly different experiences from working fleet but I agree with the V8 Chargers having problems.

They forced us into Exploraceptor hybrids this last batch of cars we got instead of our usual Tahoe PPVs. We got an order of about ten of them, & 7 or 8 had to go immediately back to the dealership for stupid problems where they sat for months waiting on parts. The Tahoes we started running after the demise of the CVPI, were relatively bulletproof until about the 2015 model year change, now those we are randomly having to replace motors in for no good reason, probably due to cylinder deactivation (VVT), full of oil...then they start ticking & missing. After the Exploraceptor hybrid issues we had out of the last bunch, we're going back to Tahoes on our next order.

I drove a 2021 V6 Charger last week that I had to go pick up as a "trip" car for my Captain since the Explorer hybrids are unreliable [censored]. I really tried to not like this car but it rides so much better & drives so much better than the miserable Exploraceptor hybrids & too-tall Tahoes.

If they'd take the hybrid/start/stop tech off the Exploraceptors, they'd probably edge out the Tahoes, they're a lot easier to get into & out of, with better visibility vs. the Tahoe. But with that start/stop/hybrid tech on them, they're less than reliable & miserable to drive.

I've seen V6 Chargers with 200k-300k miles at recent auctions, but they seem to dump the V8 Chargers early due to the problems you mentioned. I'd be real tempted to look into a V6 one after all the Vics disappear for good.


Edited by Armada Master (11/10/21 10:00 AM)
_________________________
2004 Ford CVPI 130k miles
1993 Chevy Caprice 5.0 V8 150k miles
2003 Ford CVPI 110k miles
2007 Ford CVPI 100k miles
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#4127382 - 11/10/21 11:38 AM Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices [Re: Tenevic_P71]
Dmblanch Offline
Climber

Registered: 11/13/19
Posts: 640
Loc: Utah
Well, surprise surprise!

I'm not going to disagree with anything Armada just said, in fact I'm going to confirm most of it.

The fleet managers I've talked to all, to a T, hate any ExplorerCeptor with Hybrid and Ecoboost. The added complexity fails too frequently for police use. Early on one local fleet manager told me in no uncertain terms to NEVER buy a used police Interceptor (either version) with Ecoboost or hybrid. He said the turbos don't last for squat on the former in police hands. But the naturally aspirated normal ones are pretty good and nice to drive ... as long as you keep your eye on the dreaded waterpump/timing chain issue!

And most managers and LEO's of my acquaintance say the same thing Armada says about the Tahoe. They love it for the room and it was reliable, if too big, but then VVT issues have started to creep in.

I think the operative thing with the fleet manager feedback is the "trickle down" accumulation of problems that take a while to seep into their consciousness and build up towards resentment. I buy and look at a lot of police cars at auction and every time I get a fleet manager I pepper him with questions about his cars and what he's doing for as long as he'll talk to me. They expect issues and its their job to fix problems and a normal amount of problems seem to fall under their "tolerable" category. Like the Explorerceptor waterpump timing chain flaw. They know they all fail, they know it's an issue, so if the car ever comes in for a major service around 75K they'll replace the pump for preventative maintenance. They don't freak out about it. But when they see every single car fail for the same thing, too early and too often, then they start to get resentful.

Regarding the V6 chargers, I think too many departments simply overlooked buying them in favor of the hemi's because they thought they were underpowered. Everybody bought hemi's. But the V6's seemed plenty zippy to me and they just keep going, like Armada said. Right now, the movie company I work with is looking to replace/add a couple of 2015 to current chargers and I've convinced the owner to look for v6's, which are indistinguishable from the outside. He was only convinced after I showed him dozens upon dozens of auctions for V8 hemi's, page after page of ticking cars with check engine lights on or disclaimers of "bad motors" that had only 80, 100, 110k miles and were shot out. Both of the 2015 hemi's he owns have the death tick, but he's driving them till they drop and the movies don't put much mileage on them.


Edited by Dmblanch (11/10/21 11:45 AM)
_________________________

1) 2002 White P71 - 89K miles. 2) 2003 B&W P71 - 74K. 3) & 6) & 11) 2005 White P71 - 54K, 74k, 115K. 4) 2011 Black P7B - 79K. 5) 2008 White P71 - 95k. 7) 2004 Silver P71 - 104K. 8) 2004 DT Red LX Sport - 111K. 9) & 10) 2010 White P7B SAP - 104K & 106K. 12) 2006 White P71 - scrapped. 13) 2007 Gray LX Sport - 125k. 14) 2006 White MGM LS Premium - 93k.

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#4127404 - 11/10/21 03:58 PM Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices [Re: Tenevic_P71]
GM_Guy Offline
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Registered: 12/17/00
Posts: 18773
Loc: London, Ontario Canada
Back in the old days, they made engines with a margin of built in reliability keeping all the "working at the edge of design capabilities" out of the picture. Seems just about everything these days is built to that design limit rather than leave a good amount of room for error.
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#4127436 - 11/10/21 06:33 PM Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices [Re: GM_Guy]
Ponyguy Offline

Grand Poobah

Registered: 08/07/03
Posts: 12384
Loc: Oswego, IL
Originally Posted By GM_Guy
Back in the old days, they made engines with a margin of built in reliability keeping all the "working at the edge of design capabilities" out of the picture. Seems just about everything these days is built to that design limit rather than leave a good amount of room for error.


Agreed, heartily!

Back in the good old days, you could usually eke out a few more ponies and a little more torque by judicious adjustments of the carburetor, ignition timing, and valve lash. No more... it's all electronically tuned to the fraction of a whisker.

And, a "hot car" would occasionally sneak out of the factory... an otherwise ordinary car where the tolerances stacked up just right, the clearances just a bit closer to perfect, and it just ran a little bit better and a little bit faster than all the rest of the model's production...

Not any more...
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#4127744 - 11/14/21 01:56 PM Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices [Re: Tenevic_P71]
Tenevic_P71 Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 08/27/15
Posts: 1142
Loc: US
Here's another one for you guys from Knoxville.
2011 54k mile K9 unit

Body looks pretty straight, low mileage except the dash is lit up like a christmas tree. Curious of the idle hours.
Every ex-K9 car I've seen in person had a stench which would knock you down from 20 feet away. I could not buy one of these cars for personal use.
_________________________
2006 P71 119k miles, 3.55 traclock

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#4127816 - 11/15/21 09:34 AM Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices [Re: Dmblanch]
Armada Master Offline
Banned
Posting Addict

Registered: 11/14/04
Posts: 19523
Loc: Houston, TX
Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Well, surprise surprise!

I'm not going to disagree with anything Armada just said, in fact I'm going to confirm most of it.

The fleet managers I've talked to all, to a T, hate any ExplorerCeptor with Hybrid and Ecoboost. The added complexity fails too frequently for police use. Early on one local fleet manager told me in no uncertain terms to NEVER buy a used police Interceptor (either version) with Ecoboost or hybrid. He said the turbos don't last for squat on the former in police hands. But the naturally aspirated normal ones are pretty good and nice to drive ... as long as you keep your eye on the dreaded waterpump/timing chain issue!

And most managers and LEO's of my acquaintance say the same thing Armada says about the Tahoe. They love it for the room and it was reliable, if too big, but then VVT issues have started to creep in.

I think the operative thing with the fleet manager feedback is the "trickle down" accumulation of problems that take a while to seep into their consciousness and build up towards resentment. I buy and look at a lot of police cars at auction and every time I get a fleet manager I pepper him with questions about his cars and what he's doing for as long as he'll talk to me. They expect issues and its their job to fix problems and a normal amount of problems seem to fall under their "tolerable" category. Like the Explorerceptor waterpump timing chain flaw. They know they all fail, they know it's an issue, so if the car ever comes in for a major service around 75K they'll replace the pump for preventative maintenance. They don't freak out about it. But when they see every single car fail for the same thing, too early and too often, then they start to get resentful.

Regarding the V6 chargers, I think too many departments simply overlooked buying them in favor of the hemi's because they thought they were underpowered. Everybody bought hemi's. But the V6's seemed plenty zippy to me and they just keep going, like Armada said. Right now, the movie company I work with is looking to replace/add a couple of 2015 to current chargers and I've convinced the owner to look for v6's, which are indistinguishable from the outside. He was only convinced after I showed him dozens upon dozens of auctions for V8 hemi's, page after page of ticking cars with check engine lights on or disclaimers of "bad motors" that had only 80, 100, 110k miles and were shot out. Both of the 2015 hemi's he owns have the death tick, but he's driving them till they drop and the movies don't put much mileage on them.


Ironically, after I posted this the other day, we got turned on our ear for our next Tahoe order.

So long story short, our fleet purchaser spoke to their GM person, & they cannot fill our Tahoe order for the foreseeable future thanks to the chip shortage. They did not cancel it per-se, but said it would essentially be on back order until an "unknown date" while they catch up on other production. We've heard grumblings that GM wants out of the Tahoe PPV business, because they aren't making that much money selling them to us at $35k vs. dressing them up & selling them to the general public for $50k+, now I am starting to believe it.

Ford on the other hand is ramping up police vehicle production so now we are getting our next order reluctantly from them (again). Only caveat is we did change our K9 units to non-hybrid Explorers instead.
_________________________
2004 Ford CVPI 130k miles
1993 Chevy Caprice 5.0 V8 150k miles
2003 Ford CVPI 110k miles
2007 Ford CVPI 100k miles
1989 C1500 185k miles

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#4127830 - 11/15/21 12:11 PM Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices [Re: Tenevic_P71]
Dmblanch Offline
Climber

Registered: 11/13/19
Posts: 640
Loc: Utah
Originally Posted By Tenevic_P71
Here's another one for you guys from Knoxville.

Body looks pretty straight, low mileage except the dash is lit up like a christmas tree. Curious of the idle hours.
Every ex-K9 car I've seen in person had a stench which would knock you down from 20 feet away. I could not buy one of these cars for personal use.


This is an interesting case study, I'm glad Tenevic brought it up. Is this car a case for salvage/flipping or not?

On the positive side it has only 54k miles and it's a 2011. That means that if it were clean and pretty and whole, it would be a $5k car. But what would it take to get it clean and pretty and whole? That's where this becomes interesting.

Here's the methodology I use:
  • Ignore the dirty paint, sticker residue scum under the light bar etc. ALL OF THAT WILL COME OFF with washing and policshing.
  • Ignore the missing lights. $120 gets you a whole new set. But upon closer inspection, many other parts are missing.
  • Is there any major dent damage? No, so you can work with that.
  • How are the tires. Okay, can live with them.
  • How bad is the front seat? Decent. That's good.
  • What about those dash lights? ABS and brake lights are all going to go away by changing front wheel bearings discs and rotors, and that's maybe gonna be $200 in parts.
  • Check engine lights are unknown and unusual, maybe the worst red flag. Why is it bad? Because 99 times out of 100 on other P71's you DON'T even have to deal with check engine lights. Ignore the tire lights, everyone else always does. If you want to pay $70 a sensor, be my guest, I just pump my tires up.
  • Dog cage is bad, dog stink is worse. If you take EVERYTHING out and de-stinkify with a carpet shampooer and then run the ozone machine for a couple of days, it'll pass, but that's a lot of work. But you need two machines to do this work which cost about $200 to buy. I have them, but most don't, and a lot of elbow grease. Knowing the amount of work involved, I'm starting to back away.
  • Vinyl rear seats aren't hard to find and may cost $100.

So what you've got is a car that could be saved and would need probably about $500-$750 more investment in it plus a bunch of your own labor to save it in order to get a decent car out of it. I'd have to buy it well under $2000 for it to be worth my trouble and even then I'd hesitate. Why? Because so many other Vics don't need this much work in order to resurrect.

Then there is the fear factor. This car has been neglected shunted aside and its carcass picked over. Why? What's the underlying reason why this low mileage car was shunted to the bone yard? That big unknown would cause me to pass this car by even at the $1000 price it sits at now.


Edited by Dmblanch (11/15/21 12:57 PM)
_________________________

1) 2002 White P71 - 89K miles. 2) 2003 B&W P71 - 74K. 3) & 6) & 11) 2005 White P71 - 54K, 74k, 115K. 4) 2011 Black P7B - 79K. 5) 2008 White P71 - 95k. 7) 2004 Silver P71 - 104K. 8) 2004 DT Red LX Sport - 111K. 9) & 10) 2010 White P7B SAP - 104K & 106K. 12) 2006 White P71 - scrapped. 13) 2007 Gray LX Sport - 125k. 14) 2006 White MGM LS Premium - 93k.

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#4127832 - 11/15/21 02:53 PM Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices [Re: Ponyguy]
2011LX Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 08/31/13
Posts: 1459
Loc: SE WI
Originally Posted By Ponyguy
Originally Posted By GM_Guy
Back in the old days, they made engines with a margin of built in reliability keeping all the "working at the edge of design capabilities" out of the picture. Seems just about everything these days is built to that design limit rather than leave a good amount of room for error.


Agreed, heartily!

Back in the good old days, you could usually eke out a few more ponies and a little more torque by judicious adjustments of the carburetor, ignition timing, and valve lash. No more... it's all electronically tuned to the fraction of a whisker.

And, a "hot car" would occasionally sneak out of the factory... an otherwise ordinary car where the tolerances stacked up just right, the clearances just a bit closer to perfect, and it just ran a little bit better and a little bit faster than all the rest of the model's production...

Not any more...


Everything was a little "overbuilt" back then because manufacturing processes wouldn't allow for anything less. Look at the engine castings of your classic Chevy/ford/mopars small blocks, for instance. You don't know what you've got until you magnaflux and sonic test. One engine will take a .060 bore, the next one will expose a pinhole after .020. None of them would take 1000hp without modifications like V8s from the big 3 today.

By contrast, today's castings are all uniform and consistent.

I disagree that old engines weren't built with a significant "margin of reliability. If they could have made cuts, they would have.
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#4127854 - 11/15/21 06:41 PM Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices [Re: Tenevic_P71]
GM_Guy Offline
Posting Addict

Registered: 12/17/00
Posts: 18773
Loc: London, Ontario Canada
Engine wise you can apply it 2v vs 4v for the cop cars, 2v; adequate horsepower and gets you there.
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#4127856 - 11/15/21 06:46 PM Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices [Re: Dmblanch]
Tenevic_P71 Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 08/27/15
Posts: 1142
Loc: US
Originally Posted By Dmblanch
This is an interesting case study, I'm glad Tenevic brought it up. Is this car a case for salvage/flipping or not?

Body looks good in this case. I don't care about ABS either. CEL+wrench light is definitely concerning, however would not keep me from buying this car.
That dog cage is the hangup, I just couldn't do it. K9 cars are basically parts/derby cars in my eyes. I don't see how you could get the smell out, short of stripping the entire interior. Even then the stink will linger somehow. Just look at the giant mat of hair in the rear package tray. Puke.
Maybe it would be worth it if you could clean it up and sell to someone who can't smell.


Edited by Tenevic_P71 (11/15/21 06:47 PM)
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2006 P71 119k miles, 3.55 traclock

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#4127858 - 11/15/21 07:18 PM Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices [Re: Dmblanch]
Bellwestern80 Offline

CVN Discord: Edsel
Over the Hill

Registered: 07/01/11
Posts: 4125
Loc: Evans, Georgia
Originally Posted By Dmblanch

Those are my thoughts anwyay. Now we wait for the poobahs to tell me I'm wrong on each and every count.



Nah, that's pretty on point.

The current going stuff besides the cam and lifters is cooling fans (which occasionally break apart enough to kill the radiator), water pumps, electric/hydraulic power steering pump, and the front end components.

They're quite tired by 70K and usually will have most of that stuff swapped by that time.

Do they drive nice new? Yes. Got power? Yes. Long term reliability? No.

The 5.7 cam/lifter issue is honestly the worst sticking point. I don't think I haven't heard one over 100K with a few thousand idle hours on it that doesn't rattle like a sumbitch on start-up.


Allegedly the V8 coupled to the AWD system is abusive to it and is why the AWD option is only now offered with the V6 engine. The AWD does get in the way of some easier front end part replacements on the RWD cars.
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#4127874 - 11/15/21 09:56 PM Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices [Re: Armada Master]
bluejay_32 Offline
Grand Poobah

Registered: 08/28/16
Posts: 10223
Loc: wny
Originally Posted By Armada Master
We've heard grumblings that GM wants out of the Tahoe PPV business, because they aren't making that much money selling them to us at $35k vs. dressing them up & selling them to the general public for $50k+, now I am starting to believe it.

Ford on the other hand is ramping up police vehicle production so now we are getting our next order reluctantly from them (again). Only caveat is we did change our K9 units to non-hybrid Explorers instead.

Last time I was on a lot I didn't see one under 70k and that was before COVID and the chip shortage.

For what it's worth I've seen a ton of New York State Troopers lately and every single one has been a Charger. Don't now it they're V6s or V8s but that's all they have patrolling the 90 looking for speeders. Any town cars I've seen lately have been Exploriceptors in any part of New York. I can't remember the last time I saw a Tahoe. May have been the one that pulled me over early in COVID.
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Originally Posted By Rob Gordon
NOW GET YOUR PATCHOULI STINK - OUTTA MY STORE! MOVE IT, LARD-ASS!

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#4127884 - 11/15/21 10:55 PM Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices [Re: Tenevic_P71]
Dmblanch Offline
Climber

Registered: 11/13/19
Posts: 640
Loc: Utah
Originally Posted By Tenevic_P71

Body looks good in this case. I don't care about ABS either. CEL+wrench light is definitely concerning, however would not keep me from buying this car.
That dog cage is the hangup, I just couldn't do it. K9 cars are basically parts/derby cars in my eyes. I don't see how you could get the smell out, short of stripping the entire interior. Even then the stink will linger somehow. Just look at the giant mat of hair in the rear package tray. Puke.
Maybe it would be worth it if you could clean it up and sell to someone who can't smell.

It can be done, but here's the work that would have to go into it:
  • remove the cage and all the seats. Remove the whole back shelf, preferably throw it away and replace with another used junkyard shelf.
  • Thorough vacuum and clean with anti-pet odor chemicals, touching every interior surface. Pray you don't have carpet. Clean out of all vents.
  • Then there's the headliner. Replacement preferred, but an upside down carpet shampoo vac with anti-pet chemicals is your next step. This is going to be the worst of it.
  • The front seats have to be similarly shampooed with the machine and chemicals about 3 times. This is easier to do while stretched over the cushions, I don't recommend pulling them off and washing them.


After all this is done, you put all the pieces back in and then you run the ozone ionizer inside the closed car for about 24 hrs, two or three times.

This will have a huge impact but will make the car smell "metallic" or like industrial chemicals. So you have to put a new pleasant smell back in, take your pick, then you'll be okay.

If that sounds like a lot of work, it is. A detailer would need a week and would probably charge you about a grand for that service, not to mention the cost of parts.

Hence the reason why I never buy k-9 cars.


Edited by Dmblanch (11/15/21 10:57 PM)
_________________________

1) 2002 White P71 - 89K miles. 2) 2003 B&W P71 - 74K. 3) & 6) & 11) 2005 White P71 - 54K, 74k, 115K. 4) 2011 Black P7B - 79K. 5) 2008 White P71 - 95k. 7) 2004 Silver P71 - 104K. 8) 2004 DT Red LX Sport - 111K. 9) & 10) 2010 White P7B SAP - 104K & 106K. 12) 2006 White P71 - scrapped. 13) 2007 Gray LX Sport - 125k. 14) 2006 White MGM LS Premium - 93k.

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#4127932 - 11/16/21 05:02 PM Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices [Re: Tenevic_P71]
GM_Guy Offline
Posting Addict

Registered: 12/17/00
Posts: 18773
Loc: London, Ontario Canada
Recording the k9 car vin, make it another one of those to see if it pops up on a reseller site sometime; 2FABP7BV8BX125828
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