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#4097720 - 02/19/21 11:23 AM Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices [Re: Original_Light]
2007CrownVic Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 11/19/11
Posts: 3102
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By Original_Light

The newer Chargers (2015+) don't have the suspension and brake issues the 2006-2014's did - however, the HEMI tick is still an issue. Idling does indeed hurt HEMI engines, since there isn't enough oil splash at low RPMs. The 4.6's in Vics, by comparison, are force-fed oil in these critical areas at idle, hence their near invincibility to idle hours. Not to mention near indestructible water pumps, which also happen to be easily accessible if/when they do fail.


Suspension changed for 2011 and is the same right up to current. The brakes changed around the same time.


Edited by 2007CrownVic (02/19/21 11:26 AM)

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#4097730 - 02/19/21 12:33 PM Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices [Re: 2011LX]
Dmblanch Offline
Member

Registered: 11/13/19
Posts: 136
Loc: Utah
Originally Posted By 2011LX


Just to be clear, the upper end failures with a lot of these modern engines (HEMI, LS, even the later iterations of the mod motors (3V, especially)) are a failure of the bearing in the roller followers/lifters. Those aren't force fed on ANY engine, including the 2V 4.6! They're all drip/splash lubed.

I personally don't believe it's common enough problem on any of them to be of concern.

I'm still suspicious of the real cause. It's interesting to me that, after decades of using roller cams without trouble, so many manufacturers developed the same types of problems with their roller parts right around the same time (mid-late 2000's).



You mean right around the time of VVT (2009) introduction and that's when the cam and lifter problems started for Chrysler's two hemis.

I can tell you its a common enough problem to be present (or suspected) in about 75% of all hemi Chargers coming to the auction market these days. It's pretty clear that the agencies just drive them until the tick turns into misfires and check-engine lights on, then they dump them. Whether that's at 75K miles or 150,000, it's the fate that awaits them all.
_________________________
1) 2002 CVPI - Utah Community College training vehicle with peeling white paint, 89K miles, no major defects, bought at auction $2000, sold for profit.
2) 2003 CVPI - Utah City Police black and white, 74K miles, repainted white (badly), no defects, bought at auction $976, sold for profit.
3) 2005 CVPI - Washington Fire Chief vehicle, immaculate condition, 54K miles, bought at auction with siren and lights intact $2025, sold for profit.
4) 2011 CVPI - Black California Sheriff vehicle, 79K miles, bought at auction $2000, rented as a movie prop, sold for profit.
5) 2008 CVPI - White Idaho sheriff vehicle, 95k miles, immaculate paint and interior, replaced interior with leather from a Sport model, bought at auction for $1400, keeping this one.
6) 2005 CVPI - University police vehicle, 74k miles, bought at auction for $2100, flipped for profit.
7) 2004 CVPI Detective's Model - From my hometown PD, 104K miles, bought at auction for $2009
8) 2004 LX Sport - 111K, local want ad find for $2500

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#4097746 - 02/19/21 12:54 PM Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices [Re: Dmblanch]
2011LX Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 08/31/13
Posts: 1368
Loc: SE WI
Originally Posted By Dmblanch
Originally Posted By 2011LX


Just to be clear, the upper end failures with a lot of these modern engines (HEMI, LS, even the later iterations of the mod motors (3V, especially)) are a failure of the bearing in the roller followers/lifters. Those aren't force fed on ANY engine, including the 2V 4.6! They're all drip/splash lubed.

I personally don't believe it's common enough problem on any of them to be of concern.

I'm still suspicious of the real cause. It's interesting to me that, after decades of using roller cams without trouble, so many manufacturers developed the same types of problems with their roller parts right around the same time (mid-late 2000's).



You mean right around the time of VVT (2009) introduction and that's when the cam and lifter problems started for Chrysler's two hemis.

I can tell you its a common enough problem to be present (or suspected) in about 75% of all hemi Chargers coming to the auction market these days.


Well, not surprising. Most of the junk at auction is near the end of it's useful life as a fleet car and/or needs a repair that's above the value of the car when repaired. That's why the auctions exist.


based on that logic: this is a forum based on the Crown Victoria. Since 90% of the tech sections are filled with repair questions, it's likely that all of these cars are problematic?

I was in the doctor's office yesterday and most of the people there were sick. Zombie apocalypse is on it's way?


There are hundreds of thousands of LS, Hemi, and 3V mod motors cruising the streets on factory engines that have never been opened. The vehicles displayed at the auction lot really aren't representative of all vehicles. They're only representative of auction vehicles.

And, the 3V mod motors roller followers are not an active part of a VVT system, yet they are still affected.
_________________________
2011 Crown Victoria LX - purchased @ 37k miles
currently @ 100k miles
Dark Toreador Red Metallic exterior
Medium Light Stone interior

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#4097894 - 02/19/21 08:11 PM Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices [Re: Tenevic_P71]
Dmblanch Offline
Member

Registered: 11/13/19
Posts: 136
Loc: Utah
I beg to differ.

The same "shot-out" rule does not apply to the Crown Vics, Explorers, Tahoes that I see coming to auction with similar usage histories. Many are posted at the 10 year 100000 mile mark of fleet replacement that are still rip roaring ready to go. Of these various brands and models, the Crown Vic is unquestionably the sturdiest and least problematic at that 10y/100k auction point, which is something we all acknowledge.

I'm sorry if you are sensitive that your hemi might one day also develop the dreaded tick. Let's hope it doesn't.

All I can tell you is what I see at auction and what I hear from the half dozen or so fleet managers that I talk with. All moan about hemi camshaft, dodge control arms, Ford ecoboost turbos, the usual. Does this acknowledged flaw represent all the Hemi cars and trucks in general, or just the ones starved of oil at idle (meaning police fleets)? I can't comment on that. But it's quite well known in Ram trucks as well as cop chargers.

Clearly I'm not making up the hemi tick cam/lifter problem. The internet is absolutely chock full of mechanics and owners bewailing the issue and speculating on its source. Some say oil starvation, others say soft metal (which others shoot down with their laboratory hardness test data).

A quick perusal of the current Chargers currently at auction reveals that 9/10 on publicsurplus are inoperative with tow-away "unknown" issues. Govdeals has almost 100 chargers, with a good dozen 2015 or newer with low miles, low idle hours V8's that still look good, However more than half the postings command bids under $1000 for cars of unknown or unlisted problems that aren't running. The list of "CEL on, engine misfires, needs engine work or simply "unknown" is super long.

I also find it curious that the sellers with decent cars feel the need to post videos of the running hemi engine bay to prove it has no tick. Not something that is common with Crown Vics. But Charger sellers know that if they don't prove the negative, someone will ask them if it's ticking.

One fleet manager in North Carolina felt the need to disclose this for both of his two hemi V8's, both with 100K and 10,000 hours:

"Common problems with Charger v8 repairs over the life of this vehicle: both fuel pumps replaced, suspension arms replaced, camshaft replacement and cooling fans replaced (and maybe radiator)." Like everyone knows this stuff.

When questioned about how both cars had their camshaft replaced prior to 100K miles, he replied:

"A: The Chargers are sequential VIN numbers. Both have had the same problems over the years and have had nearly identical repairs. This one (Car 506) had a shifter issue that the other did not. I cannot recall any other significant differences. (2/11/21 9:40 AM)"

And at the same time you can go to the dead last page of Crown Vic auctions, you'll see ratty 20 year old panthers with virtually no paint left, 230,000 miles and auction listing will still say, "Will start with a boost." I saw one '92 for auction with a 150K for a couple of hundred bucks, still ran great they said. There's one 2006 with 181k owned by the CA Dept of Forestry that's up for $1. Probably runs just fine.

Of course, they all have bad paint.

Am I really saying something everyone doesn't already know?
_________________________
1) 2002 CVPI - Utah Community College training vehicle with peeling white paint, 89K miles, no major defects, bought at auction $2000, sold for profit.
2) 2003 CVPI - Utah City Police black and white, 74K miles, repainted white (badly), no defects, bought at auction $976, sold for profit.
3) 2005 CVPI - Washington Fire Chief vehicle, immaculate condition, 54K miles, bought at auction with siren and lights intact $2025, sold for profit.
4) 2011 CVPI - Black California Sheriff vehicle, 79K miles, bought at auction $2000, rented as a movie prop, sold for profit.
5) 2008 CVPI - White Idaho sheriff vehicle, 95k miles, immaculate paint and interior, replaced interior with leather from a Sport model, bought at auction for $1400, keeping this one.
6) 2005 CVPI - University police vehicle, 74k miles, bought at auction for $2100, flipped for profit.
7) 2004 CVPI Detective's Model - From my hometown PD, 104K miles, bought at auction for $2009
8) 2004 LX Sport - 111K, local want ad find for $2500

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#4097898 - 02/19/21 08:57 PM Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices [Re: Tenevic_P71]
Tenevic_P71 Offline
Climber

Registered: 08/27/15
Posts: 966
Loc: US
@Dmblanch perfectly stated. I'm observing the same thing here regarding charger listings vs vics.
Didn't think this thread would turn into an argument over whether hemis are prone to ticking or not. That seems pretty well established at this point. I think someone is just being defensive. whistle


Edited by Tenevic_P71 (02/19/21 08:58 PM)
_________________________
2007 P71, 94k, 2700 hours, 3.27 traclock. #21040-Sold 10/'20
2009 P71, 129k, 1100 hours, 3.27 open. #138-Sold 11/'18
2007 P71, 156k, 6400 hours, 3.55 traclock. #3422-Sold 06/'17
2006 P71, 135k, 4800 hours, 3.55 traclock. #3375-Sold 12/'16
Ooh, trouble-free transmission

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#4097944 - 02/20/21 01:10 AM Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices [Re: Dmblanch]
2007CrownVic Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 11/19/11
Posts: 3102
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By Dmblanch
I beg to differ.

The same "shot-out" rule does not apply to the Crown Vics, Explorers, Tahoes that I see coming to auction with similar usage histories. Many are posted at the 10 year 100000 mile mark of fleet replacement that are still rip roaring ready to go. Of these various brands and models, the Crown Vic is unquestionably the sturdiest and least problematic at that 10y/100k auction point, which is something we all acknowledge.

I'm sorry if you are sensitive that your hemi might one day also develop the dreaded tick. Let's hope it doesn't.

All I can tell you is what I see at auction and what I hear from the half dozen or so fleet managers that I talk with. All moan about hemi camshaft, dodge control arms, Ford ecoboost turbos, the usual. Does this acknowledged flaw represent all the Hemi cars and trucks in general, or just the ones starved of oil at idle (meaning police fleets)? I can't comment on that. But it's quite well known in Ram trucks as well as cop chargers.

Clearly I'm not making up the hemi tick cam/lifter problem. The internet is absolutely chock full of mechanics and owners bewailing the issue and speculating on its source. Some say oil starvation, others say soft metal (which others shoot down with their laboratory hardness test data).

A quick perusal of the current Chargers currently at auction reveals that 9/10 on publicsurplus are inoperative with tow-away "unknown" issues. Govdeals has almost 100 chargers, with a good dozen 2015 or newer with low miles, low idle hours V8's that still look good, However more than half the postings command bids under $1000 for cars of unknown or unlisted problems that aren't running. The list of "CEL on, engine misfires, needs engine work or simply "unknown" is super long.

I also find it curious that the sellers with decent cars feel the need to post videos of the running hemi engine bay to prove it has no tick. Not something that is common with Crown Vics. But Charger sellers know that if they don't prove the negative, someone will ask them if it's ticking.

One fleet manager in North Carolina felt the need to disclose this for both of his two hemi V8's, both with 100K and 10,000 hours:

"Common problems with Charger v8 repairs over the life of this vehicle: both fuel pumps replaced, suspension arms replaced, camshaft replacement and cooling fans replaced (and maybe radiator)." Like everyone knows this stuff.

When questioned about how both cars had their camshaft replaced prior to 100K miles, he replied:

"A: The Chargers are sequential VIN numbers. Both have had the same problems over the years and have had nearly identical repairs. This one (Car 506) had a shifter issue that the other did not. I cannot recall any other significant differences. (2/11/21 9:40 AM)"

And at the same time you can go to the dead last page of Crown Vic auctions, you'll see ratty 20 year old panthers with virtually no paint left, 230,000 miles and auction listing will still say, "Will start with a boost." I saw one '92 for auction with a 150K for a couple of hundred bucks, still ran great they said. There's one 2006 with 181k owned by the CA Dept of Forestry that's up for $1. Probably runs just fine.

Of course, they all have bad paint.

Am I really saying something everyone doesn't already know?



You clearly have a biast against Dodges and Hemis. I've seen the auctions too and while there's a high number of Chargers with issues there's also a higher number of chargers out there then others. That 75% is a joke. Right now only a small number of Chargers on govdeals have problems related to the cam and lifter issue. I counted about 17% or so. A lot of the cars have no real problems at all. When you look at the other police vehicles about the same percentage have problems and the majority of them are tow away or have issues because of bad battery. Many of the cars on there say they have been out of service for almost a year. A lot of Crown Vics are listed with problems too but I'm not holding that against them because a lot of them have been sitting for a while or only used occasionally or might have even just been kept around to steal the odd part off of.

The service people complain about any common problem. With Chargers it's cams. With the Fords it's transmissions and AC issues. With Crown Vics it was brakes, intakes and spark plugs spitting out and a higher number of transmision problems then other cars. With Ford trucks it's the plugs and cam phaser problem. A lot of vehiles in the past 10 years seem to have higher cam failures and other engine problems then they ever did before.

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#4098352 - 02/22/21 10:09 AM Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices [Re: Tenevic_P71]
a_d_a_m Online   drunk

3 Orange Whips
Metroplectic

Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 27396
Loc: Cleveland, OH
_________________________
Apply Rule Three Today!

'91 LTD Country Squire (POTM Mar. '19) | '03 Marauder (POTM Nov. '10, Jul. '20) | 2010 P7B (POTM Feb. '21)
formerly: '02 MGM, '04 MGM, '04 MGM v2.0, '04 MM, '07 P71 (POTM Feb. '18), '04 CVLX (POTM Jun. '19 and the best car ever), '03 SAP P71

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#4098354 - 02/22/21 10:21 AM Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices [Re: a_d_a_m]
2011LX Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 08/31/13
Posts: 1368
Loc: SE WI
Originally Posted By a_d_a_m


LOL

He can ask whatever he wants. Actually selling the car is another thing!
_________________________
2011 Crown Victoria LX - purchased @ 37k miles
currently @ 100k miles
Dark Toreador Red Metallic exterior
Medium Light Stone interior

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#4098394 - 02/22/21 12:25 PM Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices [Re: a_d_a_m]
bluejay_32 Offline
Poobah

Registered: 08/28/16
Posts: 8890
Loc: wny
Originally Posted By a_d_a_m

rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl


Sorry, I'd go Arizona Beige before that. laugh
_________________________
2008 Grand Marquis - bought 7/29/16 - 60,210 mi
Inaugural CVNw POTM - December 2018 slug
CVN POTM - February 2019 joy


Originally Posted By JeffBoudah
That's about as savage as buttered white bread.

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#4098802 - 02/24/21 04:56 AM Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices [Re: a_d_a_m]
GRMN_CV Offline
n00b

Registered: 12/07/20
Posts: 20
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By a_d_a_m
[url=https://www.ebay.com/itm/1994-Ford-Crown-Victoria-POLICE-INTERCEPTOR/164716834620]BUY IT NOW! Only $5k.


You can bet your but still someone will buy it, Maaco paint it and sell it with profit. crazy2


Edited by GRMN_CV (02/24/21 04:59 AM)

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#4099386 - Yesterday at 08:25 PM Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices [Re: Tenevic_P71]
Dmblanch Offline
Member

Registered: 11/13/19
Posts: 136
Loc: Utah
Further to the ongoing debate about the over-priced nature of Vics on the market these days and the dumping of ratty Chargers with Cam issues, two more items just popped up on my auction radar.

1) A 2011 P71 from the Arizona Department of Transportation, not a good seller, one who dumps vehicles with virtually no inspection or disclosure, just sold on Publicsurplus for $5300. Granted the car had only 54K miles, but it was white, had holes for the push bumper in the front fascia, had NO rear seat and NO rear door panels.

That's absolutely ri-goddamn-diculous.

$5300 Crown Vic P71 at auction

2) The city of Logan Utah, a seller from whom I have bought cars at auction three times in the past, just posted a 2012 Dodge Charger hemi which sets the record for earliest Cam failure that I've seen so far at only 57,000 miles. Since I know the fleet manager and I called him and asked him a few questions. First he said that this unit has relatively low idle hours at only 3000, but second and more importantly he said that they are purging all their Dodges from their fleet, regardless of mileage or age. If one comes in with even a hint of the hemi tick or throwing any cylinder misfire codes, on the chopping block it goes because they know that the fix is $4000 and it won't fix it. If it fails at 57K, they know it can easily fail again at 114K.

What are they replacing it with? Interceptors and Tahoes.

Hemi Cam Lifter failure at only 57K miles 3000 hours

Which brings me to my "beef" with Hemi Chargers, alluded to by 2007CrownVic above. Actually he stated it better than I could have, in that these Hemi's are commonly failing with the cam/lifter issue. That is a $4000 repair, which ain't no weekend DIY job. That's a big boy shop repair and last I checked there is NO 'bulletproofing' solution for this design problem, unlike with the Ford crappy diesel 6.0 and 6.4 engines. Their secondary common failure issues are, in order of frequency, control arm tie rod strut issues on the front end (about an $800 repair when I had to do it on BOTH 3.6 Chargers I bought) and power steering pump failure (a $475 part, but at least you can fix it yourself). All expensive issues on old used cop cars that one might consider buying at auction.

In contrast, consider what commonly fails on Crown Vics. Here's the sum total of my repairs on all eight cars listed in my signature:

1) 2002 - Bad peelformance white paint that I touched up with rattle cans, lights out on the dashboard, glitch in the HVAC electrical that meant it didn't like being in OFF position, changed the front brake pads DIY $40.
2) 2003 - Bad black and white paint that I repainted. Fluids low had to top them off before driving home. Bad battery $125. $25 window switch.
3) 2005 - Absolutely nothing.
4) 2011 - Transmission flush and new filter service $300. Window motor burned out $45 DIY, touched up bad paint DIY.
5) 2008 - $80 to fix short in wiring due to police decommissioning, just paid $200 after 5000 miles of use to replace oil cooler feeder hoses and connections, paint perfect.
6) 2005 - $40 to balance the tires, DIY touch up of bad peelformance white paint.
7) 2004 - $80 on pads and rotors DIY fix, $85 on new front wheel bearings DIY fix, $40 tire balancing. No paint issues on this silver car.
8) 2004 Sport - Bad paint on the roof, another $45 window motor.

So there you have it. You can buy a 100K Crown Vic with rock solid engine and crappy paint for $2K and have no major issues...

... or you can gamble $4-6k on a newer charger and risk another $5K in serious suspension and engine issues that plague just about every car as they hit 100k miles.


Edited by Dmblanch (Yesterday at 08:30 PM)
_________________________
1) 2002 CVPI - Utah Community College training vehicle with peeling white paint, 89K miles, no major defects, bought at auction $2000, sold for profit.
2) 2003 CVPI - Utah City Police black and white, 74K miles, repainted white (badly), no defects, bought at auction $976, sold for profit.
3) 2005 CVPI - Washington Fire Chief vehicle, immaculate condition, 54K miles, bought at auction with siren and lights intact $2025, sold for profit.
4) 2011 CVPI - Black California Sheriff vehicle, 79K miles, bought at auction $2000, rented as a movie prop, sold for profit.
5) 2008 CVPI - White Idaho sheriff vehicle, 95k miles, immaculate paint and interior, replaced interior with leather from a Sport model, bought at auction for $1400, keeping this one.
6) 2005 CVPI - University police vehicle, 74k miles, bought at auction for $2100, flipped for profit.
7) 2004 CVPI Detective's Model - From my hometown PD, 104K miles, bought at auction for $2009
8) 2004 LX Sport - 111K, local want ad find for $2500

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#4099512 - Today at 10:05 AM Re: Inflated P71 Auction Prices [Re: Tenevic_P71]
2007CrownVic Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 11/19/11
Posts: 3102
Loc: Canada
The only real issue Charger wise is the high cost of the cam failure problem but if you do it yourself it can be done for well under $3,000 and surprisingly there are owners who've done little to no engine work before able to do it on their own. The majority of Chargers never have problems at all. Suspension problems also aren't that common in the 2011+ as they were earlier years. It happens but it also happens to other cars.

Back when Crown vics were the main police car at auctions there was about the same number of them going thru with bad transmissions, engine knocks or other major problems as there are Chargers with problems now. It goes with the territory being used as a police car.

There's a gamble buying a Charger at auction and honestly I wouldn't buy one unless you could absorb the potential repair cost into the price and still be ahead but I also wouldn't buy a a newer Interceptor either for the same reason. Crown Vics are a whole other animal. Of course they're the safer car to buy and cheaper to repair but they're a whole different generation of car with ancient engineering to car standards even when they were still being built. There's not going to be a car like them again especially police car wise.

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