Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure! registry | CVN on Facebook | tech | news | email login Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure!


Welcome to CVN - Your Panther platform headquarters!


Custom Search


Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 >
Topic Options
#4104074 - 04/05/21 02:00 PM Cooling The Transmission Hard Use
Traffic22 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/14/12
Posts: 115
Loc: CA
So for anyone who has looked at my profile, you already know I am racing a 2011 CV P7 in the 24 hours of Lemons series. Over Easter weekend we had our first race, finishing 50 out of 132 entries. Actually a great finish considering we are running a stock 4.6, with stock transmission, and stock suspension and open diff 3.27.

We are now in the process of getting the car ready for race 2 in late may.

During our first race, we saw trans temps consistently in the 230-250 range, with a high of 264. We did a fluid change to Valvoline Mercon LV on Sat night, and Sunday we ran cooler at 230-240 most of the day.

Our plan is to do a flush and fill with either Valvoline or Amsoil Mercon LV. They both seem a little more resistant to heat build up.

Also, we are planning on ditching the Trans cooler that is part of the condenser and going with a stand alone B&M 10 row cooler. We hope this will bring out temps down further.

I am soliciting advice on additional ways to bring our temps down.

Just an FYI, we run the car with the OD off, as this keeps the car in a better rev range for racing.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Chuck

Top
Links
#4104076 - 04/05/21 02:06 PM Re: Cooling The Transmission Hard Use [Re: Traffic22]
Old_Guy_Stu Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 04/28/19
Posts: 2562
Loc: Cleveland, OH
You're on the right track (so to speak). See what the temp is during the next race with the B&M. Might even need a bigger cooler. Running 230-250 for 24 hours is asking for trouble.
_________________________

1988 CVLX Formal Roof (Love Boat) POTM July 2019 & Aug 2020, 56K
E-code lights w/ relays, LEDs w/ switchbacks, 15x8 Ansen slots w/ 255/60 BFG's, Kenwood stereo, various hacks.

Top
#4104094 - 04/05/21 05:58 PM Re: Cooling The Transmission Hard Use [Re: Traffic22]
RF_Overlord Offline

Poobah

Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 7677
Loc: MA
Put a fan or the B&M cooler unless you're mounting it in front of the radiator, in which case nevermind. biggrin

A finned aluminium trans pan may help.

J-mod. Say it with me: J-MOD

Now on to one of my pet peeves. Valvoline like to play word games with their ATFs. In this case their DEX6/Mercon LV is licensed for DEX6 but is only "recommended for use in" Mercon LV. Why isn't it also licensed? Will this cause your transmission to immediately kerplode? Of course not, but I'm always uncomfortable with fluids that aren't licensed/approved by the manufacturer.

/rant
_________________________
'03 Mercury Marauder (The Blackbird)
Trilogy Motorsports supercharged #61
Too many mods to list / Driveway Queen

'04 Grand Marquis LS Limited Edition (Spruce Green)
Daily Driver (Thanks, Adam!)

'00 Grand Marquis GS (Silver)
Rotted frame and broken transmission crossmember
Being resurrected...slowly.

Top
#4104098 - 04/05/21 06:48 PM Re: Cooling The Transmission Hard Use [Re: Traffic22]
ironmarinebill64 Offline
Rookie

Registered: 01/30/21
Posts: 54
Loc: New York, USA
50 out of 132 in the 24 Hours of Lemons: You are my hero.

I agree that a full size extra cooler will help, but given that you're essentially running a truly stock car into the ground on purpose, I don't know if I'd pay the extra $$ for a B&M. You might be able to find a lower priced alternative on Ebay or Amazon.

But, there's also the question of whether adding that much more surface area affects line pressure and changes the shift characteristics (not a transmission expert, just spit-ballin possibilities)

Curious: What's the sustained range of the RPMs you're typically running? I ask because you write that you keep it in OD Off, and it's truly a testament to the 4.6's durability to beat it like that.
_________________________
2005 Lincoln Town Car Signature Limited
5.4 liter throttle body; PI oil cooler, intake tube & air box; Mark VIII aluminum driveshaft; Trac-Lok limited slip; Richmond Gear axle shafts; J-Mod with Sonnax valves; Limo rear control arms and a great sounding stereo that won't ever automatically remember my Bluetooth settings

1999 Mercury Grand Marquis (gave that to youngest son, and he's now a converted true believer)

Top
#4104122 - 04/05/21 10:09 PM Re: Cooling The Transmission Hard Use [Re: Traffic22]
dixiebandit69 Offline
5.4 Club
Member

Registered: 01/17/12
Posts: 327
Loc: Texas
DO NOT PAY EXTRA FOR A B&M COOLER. THEY BUY THEIR COOLERS FROM LONG, AND PUT IT IN A B&M BOX.

I can't say this enough, after paying over $100 for a cooler I could have had for less.

I did a writeup about installing one on my MGM, but all the pictures got lost in the infamous site crash of 2017.
I should probably repost those.
Anyway, this is what you want:
https://www.amazon.com/Long-Tru-Cool-Transmission-Cooler-4590/dp/B005XZX8RY

This is just the first one I found in a quick search, but Long Coolers make much larger oil coolers than this, you just have to find them. I've seen them on small power equipment like forklifts an skid-steers. It's really worth looking into.
_________________________
2007 Grand Marquis LS: 5.4 swap, 9.9:1 compression ratio, Comp XE268s, NPI pistons, PI heads ported by me, Accufab upper plenum, 75mm DBW throttle body, Factory PI intake with Chinese spacers, CVPI dual exhaust, CVPI torque converter, CVPI air-box and zip tube, J-Mod, 3.55 gears, FMS Trac-Loc differential
17" Dorman CVPI steelies, BFG Comp T/A 255/45 R17s

Top
#4104134 - 04/05/21 11:16 PM Re: Cooling The Transmission Hard Use [Re: Traffic22]
dixiebandit69 Offline
5.4 Club
Member

Registered: 01/17/12
Posts: 327
Loc: Texas
_________________________
2007 Grand Marquis LS: 5.4 swap, 9.9:1 compression ratio, Comp XE268s, NPI pistons, PI heads ported by me, Accufab upper plenum, 75mm DBW throttle body, Factory PI intake with Chinese spacers, CVPI dual exhaust, CVPI torque converter, CVPI air-box and zip tube, J-Mod, 3.55 gears, FMS Trac-Loc differential
17" Dorman CVPI steelies, BFG Comp T/A 255/45 R17s

Top
#4104136 - 04/06/21 03:15 AM Re: Cooling The Transmission Hard Use [Re: Traffic22]
Traffic22 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/14/12
Posts: 115
Loc: CA
Thank you all for all the feedback.

I will for certain check out the Long coolers. We plan to ditch the factory condenser/cooler combo, and run the aftermarket trans cooler as just that, a trans cooler.

I’ve already contacted 88 Grand Marq and am working on rebuilding the valve body, and doing the J-mod, I believe these two streps will help immensely. (And I kind of knew we should have J-moded the trans before)

We’re also going to try a full fill of the Valvoline for the next race. (I’m an Amsoil guy) but the Valvoline has already proven itself (10 degrees cooler between sat and sun) so we’ll roll with it this next time around.

With all do respect to @ironmarinebill64, we are not “running the car into the ground on purpose” in fact, I have 8k and 200+ hours into the build and preparation of this car, not for just one race, but for many Lemons races. (We go to Thunder Hill at the end of May.) And, we have plans for suspension mods in the near future to improve the handling.

It’s kind of hard to say how high our sustained RPMs were. Sonoma is a very up and down track, with a lot of on/off partial throttle. But we did beat the motor pretty hard. Cool side note: Engine temp hummed along between 191-205 all day long, and spent most of the day below 195. Amazing motor (durability wise).

If anyone is interested, here is a link to our Sunday in car cam...recorded the whole 8 hours, including pit stops, fuel dumps, etc. (I apologize for any harsh language in the heat of battle.) You can see the craziness that is Lemons, and some of our good, and bad driving.

https://youtu.be/mhOnM2dMPdc

Top
#4104144 - 04/06/21 09:17 AM Re: Cooling The Transmission Hard Use [Re: Traffic22]
2008interceptor Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 09/02/02
Posts: 3280
Loc: Pennsylvania
Very cool build I think that standalone trans cooler will help. I was surprised the p71 got a separate power steering cooler. Yet kept the standard production trans condenser setup. I agree it does not seem like you're trying to run down on purpose. If the pressure changed with the cooler you could likely adjust that with a tune. Could probably alter the function of the od button as well. Have it still lockup but not shift into od when off then normal when on. That way you'd still be keeping od from engaging. Yet trans temps would drop + less power loss due to the mechanical connection.
_________________________
2008 Ford Crown Victoria Police Interceptor P71 with street appearance package.

Top
#4104150 - 04/06/21 10:42 AM Re: Cooling The Transmission Hard Use [Re: 2008interceptor]
Traffic22 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/14/12
Posts: 115
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By 2008interceptor
Very cool build I think that standalone trans cooler will help. I was surprised the p71 got a separate power steering cooler. Yet kept the standard production trans condenser setup. I agree it does not seem like you're trying to run down on purpose. If the pressure changed with the cooler you could likely adjust that with a tune. Could probably alter the function of the od button as well. Have it still lockup but not shift into od when off then normal when on. That way you'd still be keeping od from engaging. Yet trans temps would drop + less power loss due to the mechanical connection.


This is a very interesting idea. We had never planned to tune, because the appeal of the CV is it’s extreme durability in stock configuration. We do plan a rear end rebuild at some point with a move to 3.73 and a limited slip, so we can avoid one legging it around the track. That of course will require a programming of the ECU for the new gears. This could be a possible solution to our heat build up, if the other steps don’t work. (Thank you very much, this is a very clever idea.)

On a side note, I don’t want to come off hyper sensitive, but we are not running down the car, or abusing it. Yes, we are driving it hard. Yes we are subjecting it to extreme conditions. But that’s racing.

We actually take very good care of the car. In fact, we’re 48 hours post race, and in the process of fixing a leaky PS line, re-flushing the PS, changing the oil, rebuilding the valve body and changing the ATF again. We’ve also conducted a full inspection of all the suspension components (discovered a cracked front sway bar bushing.) full inspection of the engine, both visual and OBD code read, and full brake inspection.

We love this car and care for it as such. I want to make it clear, we’re not trying to kill the car or break it.

Top
#4104176 - 04/06/21 02:18 PM Re: Cooling The Transmission Hard Use [Re: Traffic22]
2008interceptor Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 09/02/02
Posts: 3280
Loc: Pennsylvania
Thanks and sorry I didn't mean to infer you were abusing the car knowingly or not. You can usually tell right away by what people are asking what their plan is. Not to mention it'd be rather odd to do endurance races in something you're not taking care of. Properly maintained as you're doing is much better than what some would consider good care (over babying or underuse). By that I mean low miles low maintenance so say fluids don't get up to temp or changed on time rather by miles. As most often drivers ignore the time part and only pay attention to miles for fluids. Like a weekend babied car with 3 year old oil and 10 year old coolant all the hoses just waiting to blow. Because "I don't put many miles on it."


Edited by 2008interceptor (04/06/21 02:22 PM)
_________________________
2008 Ford Crown Victoria Police Interceptor P71 with street appearance package.

Top
#4104196 - 04/06/21 03:59 PM Re: Cooling The Transmission Hard Use [Re: 2008interceptor]
Traffic22 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/14/12
Posts: 115
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By 2008interceptor
Thanks and sorry I didn't mean to infer you were abusing the car knowingly or not. You can usually tell right away by what people are asking what their plan is. Not to mention it'd be rather odd to do endurance races in something you're not taking care of. Properly maintained as you're doing is much better than what some would consider good care (over babying or underuse). By that I mean low miles low maintenance so say fluids don't get up to temp or changed on time rather by miles. As most often drivers ignore the time part and only pay attention to miles for fluids. Like a weekend babied car with 3 year old oil and 10 year old coolant all the hoses just waiting to blow. Because "I don't put many miles on it."


No offense taken. And I apologize is I came off as a hyper sensitive D-bag. I am a Panther platform lover. Drove a Marauder for a couple years, and when it came time to do a Lemons build really never considered another car.

As a Panther enthusiast, my goal is to respect the platform. With guys cutting up our cars to turn them into F100, good examples are going to get scarce soon.

My car started as a San Joaquin County Dog car. If I didn't "rescue" it from the auction house, it was headed to a parts yard.

Sorry if it seemed like I lashed out, I really appreciate the help everyone has directly and indirectly supplied over the course of our build, and the last thing I want to do is piss anyone here off. Couldn't have made it this far without you guys. Our victories are your victories too.

Stay tuned for more pics and updates in my build thread...Tranny cooling upgrades, and suspension upgrades coming soon. grin

Top
#4104208 - 04/06/21 07:08 PM Re: Cooling The Transmission Hard Use [Re: Traffic22]
ironmarinebill64 Offline
Rookie

Registered: 01/30/21
Posts: 54
Loc: New York, USA
You really are my hero now!

Just watched some of the in-car camera footage on youtube.

Bravo! And from everything I watched, both the car and your ability as a driver are top notch.
_________________________
2005 Lincoln Town Car Signature Limited
5.4 liter throttle body; PI oil cooler, intake tube & air box; Mark VIII aluminum driveshaft; Trac-Lok limited slip; Richmond Gear axle shafts; J-Mod with Sonnax valves; Limo rear control arms and a great sounding stereo that won't ever automatically remember my Bluetooth settings

1999 Mercury Grand Marquis (gave that to youngest son, and he's now a converted true believer)

Top
#4104246 - 04/06/21 09:44 PM Re: Cooling The Transmission Hard Use [Re: Traffic22]
88grandmarq Offline

4R70W rebuilder
Poobah

Registered: 07/10/02
Posts: 6846
Loc: Indiana
Originally Posted By Traffic22
So for anyone who has looked at my profile, you already know I am racing a 2011 CV P7 in the 24 hours of Lemons series. Over Easter weekend we had our first race, finishing 50 out of 132 entries. Actually a great finish considering we are running a stock 4.6, with stock transmission, and stock suspension and open diff 3.27.

We are now in the process of getting the car ready for race 2 in late may.

During our first race, we saw trans temps consistently in the 230-250 range, with a high of 264. We did a fluid change to Valvoline Mercon LV on Sat night, and Sunday we ran cooler at 230-240 most of the day.

Our plan is to do a flush and fill with either Valvoline or Amsoil Mercon LV. They both seem a little more resistant to heat build up.

Also, we are planning on ditching the Trans cooler that is part of the condenser and going with a stand alone B&M 10 row cooler. We hope this will bring out temps down further.

I am soliciting advice on additional ways to bring our temps down.

Just an FYI, we run the car with the OD off, as this keeps the car in a better rev range for racing.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Chuck


here are my thoughts;

1) keep the factory trans cooler and plumb in a large Auxiliary cooler. Personally I like the 8000 series coolers from Derale. part number 13503 should work well. https://derale.com/product-footer/fluid-...-53-27471243954

2) Go away from the Mercon LV fluid and use normal Mercon/Dextron fluid. The LV stands for light viscosity, which means it's really thin fluid and does not handle heat well. plus you can buy a Gallon jug of normal Mercon fluid at walmart for $12-$14.

3) Install a Dorman transmission pan that has a drain plug. pull the plug and do a simple drain and fill on the fluid as often as possible. You might even consider an aftermarket cast aluminum deep pan that will hold 2 qts more fluid. the down side the large pan is it is much lower than the crossmember and will be first thing that hits pavement, if you bottom the car out.

4) Make sure all the factory plastic deflectors are in place on the front of the car. They are there for a reason and direct air flow into the cooling system. The core support cover is very important and I have personally measured 10 degree high trans fluid temps with it missing.
_________________________
2011 P7B - retired Jay county Indiana Sheriffs car
2003 Lincoln Town Car Signature - 3.27 RAR, dual exhaust and J-mod - SOLD 09/2011
89 Crown Victoria LX- HPP Box - SOLD 09/2010
88 Grand Marquis LS - The original - Totaled 5/2006

I rebuild AODE/4R70W/4R75E Transmissions, check out my Facebook page for my latest project; https://www.facebook.com/Ford-transmission-repairs-Jmod-348414635312478/

Top
#4104314 - 04/07/21 12:17 PM Re: Cooling The Transmission Hard Use [Re: 88grandmarq]
Traffic22 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/14/12
Posts: 115
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By 88grandmarq
Originally Posted By Traffic22
So for anyone who has looked at my profile, you already know I am racing a 2011 CV P7 in the 24 hours of Lemons series. Over Easter weekend we had our first race, finishing 50 out of 132 entries. Actually a great finish considering we are running a stock 4.6, with stock transmission, and stock suspension and open diff 3.27.

We are now in the process of getting the car ready for race 2 in late may.

During our first race, we saw trans temps consistently in the 230-250 range, with a high of 264. We did a fluid change to Valvoline Mercon LV on Sat night, and Sunday we ran cooler at 230-240 most of the day.

Our plan is to do a flush and fill with either Valvoline or Amsoil Mercon LV. They both seem a little more resistant to heat build up.

Also, we are planning on ditching the Trans cooler that is part of the condenser and going with a stand alone B&M 10 row cooler. We hope this will bring out temps down further.

I am soliciting advice on additional ways to bring our temps down.

Just an FYI, we run the car with the OD off, as this keeps the car in a better rev range for racing.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Chuck


here are my thoughts;

1) keep the factory trans cooler and plumb in a large Auxiliary cooler. Personally I like the 8000 series coolers from Derale. part number 13503 should work well. https://derale.com/product-footer/fluid-...-53-27471243954

2) Go away from the Mercon LV fluid and use normal Mercon/Dextron fluid. The LV stands for light viscosity, which means it's really thin fluid and does not handle heat well. plus you can buy a Gallon jug of normal Mercon fluid at walmart for $12-$14.

3) Install a Dorman transmission pan that has a drain plug. pull the plug and do a simple drain and fill on the fluid as often as possible. You might even consider an aftermarket cast aluminum deep pan that will hold 2 qts more fluid. the down side the large pan is it is much lower than the crossmember and will be first thing that hits pavement, if you bottom the car out.

4) Make sure all the factory plastic deflectors are in place on the front of the car. They are there for a reason and direct air flow into the cooling system. The core support cover is very important and I have personally measured 10 degree high trans fluid temps with it missing.


Thank you so much for the information.
1) I'll take a look at that trans cooler.
2) Excellent info on the fluid, thank you.
3) Done, Dorman pan installed pre-race, and we did a drain and fi on Satruday before the Sunday session. It' helped quite a bit, ran 5-10 degrees cooler all day Sunday. (Still too hot though.)
4)They are there, we didn't remove them.

Thanks for all the help. Dropping pan and valve body today. Assuming no large metal chunks in the pan, valve body will be headed your way soon.

Chuck

Top
#4104370 - 04/07/21 04:54 PM Re: Cooling The Transmission Hard Use [Re: Traffic22]
Traffic22 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/14/12
Posts: 115
Loc: CA
Well, today was a good news day in my little world.

First, when I pulled the tranny pan, it was shockingly clean. In fact, there was not even fuzz on the magnet. (We has found some tiny fuzzy shavings on the magnet when we serviced the trans pre-race. (It was cleaner than that.)

The fluid did not smell too bad, and was remarkably clean. On top of all that, the stuff that fell out of the valve body was perfectly clean.

Our valve body is on it's way to @88Grandmq for him to work his magic.

Now to just figure out which route we want to go with the cooler.

Top
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 >

Who's Online
5 registered (lance54r, Dmblanch, derekghs, Colt604, bobb), 96 Guests and 120 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Shout Box

Top Posters (30 Days)
bluejay_32 102
Armada Master 92
JeffBoudah 86
Old_Guy_Stu 80
Moby_Vic 57
Dmblanch 55
SocalSam 50
a_d_a_m 50
jmlock 48
DudeAbides 43
Member Spotlight
Member Since: 11/30/01
Posts: 9558





Copyright 2000-2015 by Crownvic.net and Steve Spaulding. All Rights Reserved.
The photographs, graphics and data contained in this Web site are the properties of the contributors, or Crownvic.net and may not be used without expressed written consent.
Crownvic.net is not affiliated with the Ford motor company.

Happily consuming the fuel saved by Prius owners!