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#4111714 - 06/05/21 07:14 AM Re: Cooling The Transmission Hard Use [Re: Traffic22]
Old_Guy_Stu Online   drunk

Over the Hill

Registered: 04/28/19
Posts: 2421
Loc: Cleveland, OH
I'm gonna guess here, and say that endurance racing with an automatic is something even the guys at Ford Racing don't have much experience with. 99% of race automatics are used in drag racing, where it's all over in 12 seconds.

Further guesswork, heat comes from slippage. You're running at or near full throttle all the time and the converter doesn't lock up in that situation. And the converter puts a lot of heat into the system. Maybe a toggle switch (or a tune?) can force lockup? Which may kill throttle response and acceleration, but would let the trans live.

Might be time to think about a manual swap.

As for pans, my Trick Flow pan holds one quart extra:

It's just an RCH lower than the crossmember, and still above the exhaust. You should be able to use a +2 qt pan without bottoming out, but I don't know how much it will really help.
_________________________

1988 CVLX Formal Roof (Love Boat) POTM July 2019 & Aug 2020, 56K
E-code lights w/ relays, LEDs w/ switchbacks, 15x8 Ansen slots w/ 255/60 BFG's, Kenwood stereo, various hacks.
1988 CVLX (Destroyer) 1998-2001 driven to death 202K
1988 Squire (Chris Craft) 1996-1998 junkyard rescue driven to death 199K

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#4111722 - 06/05/21 10:01 AM Re: Cooling The Transmission Hard Use [Re: Traffic22]
Lance01 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/02/18
Posts: 489
Loc: Pa
Yea, guys mostly use Fords for drag racing but Ford Racing does have experience in road racing. I can go back to 1993 where Ford racing produced the 1993 Cobra R. If you bought that car new I believe you were required to race it to some extent. The 1993 cobra R was a pure track car.

Basically all the mustang cobras were designed for track use with the 2000 and 2003/04 being the most desirable. Guys just take them to the drag strip as that's the American way of flexing muscle I suppose.

The 2020 Shelby gt500 which is at the top of the food chain now is an automatic. The 2020 shelby gt500 is actually a track car also even though it can rip a 10 sec quarter mile. If they can keep that transmission cool during track use (that has 750 ponies in front of it) our crown vics should be a cakewalk.


I get your point though about automatics. Maybe they know something we don't know. It's worth a shot to see what they say.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.roadand...utch-automatic/


Edited by Lance01 (06/05/21 10:13 AM)

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#4111724 - 06/05/21 10:30 AM Re: Cooling The Transmission Hard Use [Re: Traffic22]
Lance01 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/02/18
Posts: 489
Loc: Pa
I failed to mention the OP could also hit up Saleen. They probably have more direct knowledge with endurance racing for more than anyone else come to think of it.

https://www.saleen.com/contact/

Back in the 90s the Saleen Mustangs were all the rage and they put out automatic Saleens as well.

To this day I still want a 1994 screaming yellow Saleen s-351R! I saw one in my life. I was on the 710 freeway in California and I thought I heard a flash thunderstorm or something. Looked to my left while I'm in my towtruck and a yellow Saleen s-351r flys by me in the fast lane. Man that supercharged pushrod engine was so loud and sounded so good!! Only thing close to that rush/sound is the new Hellcats that can sound real mean and nasty.

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#4111788 - 06/06/21 02:43 AM Re: Cooling The Transmission Hard Use [Re: Traffic22]
Traffic22 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/14/12
Posts: 111
Loc: CA
I want to thank everyone for their help and responses. My team and I do really appreciate all the help.

Since my post a few days ago, I’ve been talking with Eric (88GrandMarq) and Hans (hkerekes) quite a bit.

I need to take some measurements to see if we can make it fit, but the leading candidate is the Ford 6.0 Powerstroke diesel trans cooler. It is about 34”x17”x1.5”. In addition to being huge, it is stacked plate. From what I gather by my research, this is the most efficient design for a radiator.

We are also going to run the factory fan full time. After blowing out the module, it just makes more sense to wire it through a relay to a switch on the dash.

This is also presenting its own challenges, because the fan has to turn off with the kill switch. I’m a little afraid to pull that much amperage through the switch. We’re trying to figure out if we can pull from an alternate source. (Like some of the stray police wiring or something left over from when we gutted the car.) I won’t really know until I measure the amp draw at the switch currently.

I never thought about contacting Ford performance. That is an excellent idea, (Thanks Lance01) I’ve contacted them in the past and they are great.

And thank you Old_guy_stu….I didn’t even realize Trick Flow made a pan. Might be a good upgrade over the Dorman, but less likely to be an issue than the LPW.

The semi-permanent locking of the torque converter is actually something Eric and I discussed. It would require some custom tuning to get there, but it is doable. (Since we’re going to do a 3.55 and LSD soon, the lock up may be on the table too) Another team at last weeks race have an older CV, mid-late 90’s I believe, and they run locked in 2, 3, 4.

It’s a work in progress for sure. There are no bad ideas at this point, I, open to any and all suggestions.

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#4111832 - 06/06/21 09:58 PM Re: Cooling The Transmission Hard Use [Re: Traffic22]
hkerekes Offline
Member

Registered: 09/19/20
Posts: 100
Loc: NC
If you want to wait and see if the derale cooler i bought works, you can use that as a data point for your setup.


We have a race on july 17th at charlotte motorspeedway ROVAL. 3 hour friday night, 4 hour saturday, and a 10 hour on sunday. Its going to be hot ( probably 95+) and will definitely be put to the test.
As we make the car quicker, i have a feeling that anything infront of the radiator is going to be an issue for engine cooling.



Edited by hkerekes (06/06/21 09:59 PM)

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#4111914 - 06/08/21 01:42 AM Re: Cooling The Transmission Hard Use [Re: hkerekes]
Traffic22 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/14/12
Posts: 111
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By hkerekes
If you want to wait and see if the derale cooler i bought works, you can use that as a data point for your setup.


We have a race on july 17th at charlotte motorspeedway ROVAL. 3 hour friday night, 4 hour saturday, and a 10 hour on sunday. Its going to be hot ( probably 95+) and will definitely be put to the test.
As we make the car quicker, i have a feeling that anything infront of the radiator is going to be an issue for engine cooling.



Thanks for the offer. I’ll text you after the race to see how it goes. Derale was very helpful. They recommended the 40 row, and said using the factory fan to pull was a good set-up.

The Ford 31 row 6.0 diesel trans cooler was a no go. Way too many things in the way. Even with some creative cutting, too much needed support structure is in the way.

I have two cardboard templates (little arts and crafts projects) for both the Ford 26 row stacked plate, which is the replacement for the 31 row. It’s 25x14x1.5. That may actually slide right in front of the radiator perfectly. It’s also 12” wider than the Derale.

According to the 6.0 and 7.3 diesel guys, it’s equally efficient as compared to the 31 row.

It’s a tough decision but we’ll see what things look like after checking fitment with the templates.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know the outer and inner diameter of the trans lines?

I need to order some SS line and want to get the correct size.


Edited by Traffic22 (06/08/21 01:52 AM)

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#4111996 - 06/08/21 07:25 PM Re: Cooling The Transmission Hard Use [Re: Traffic22]
hkerekes Offline
Member

Registered: 09/19/20
Posts: 100
Loc: NC
a 3/8 rubber hose fits over the factory hard lines.

IF it was me...... i would and am going to switch everything over to AN lines once we verify our new setup works and we wont ever have to worry about leaks or hose clamps. If you go with the ford cooler you can run an lines up to it and have a AN to hose barb fitting with a really short rubber line to the cooler.

SS line probably will be just as expensive as AN lines and is going to be a pain to bend. 6 AN is fairly cheap and is bendy.

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#4112144 - 06/10/21 01:54 PM Re: Cooling The Transmission Hard Use [Re: hkerekes]
Traffic22 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/14/12
Posts: 111
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By hkerekes
a 3/8 rubber hose fits over the factory hard lines.

IF it was me...... i would and am going to switch everything over to AN lines once we verify our new setup works and we wont ever have to worry about leaks or hose clamps. If you go with the ford cooler you can run an lines up to it and have a AN to hose barb fitting with a really short rubber line to the cooler.

SS line probably will be just as expensive as AN lines and is going to be a pain to bend. 6 AN is fairly cheap and is bendy.


Thanks. Yes I meant braided SS lines, no hard lines. 3/8" info is helpful thanks.

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#4112148 - 06/10/21 02:07 PM Re: Cooling The Transmission Hard Use [Re: Traffic22]
Old_Guy_Stu Online   drunk

Over the Hill

Registered: 04/28/19
Posts: 2421
Loc: Cleveland, OH
If it was me, I'd ditch the factory hard lines, go with -6 hose all the way. You're gonna beat that car for 24 hours and don't want a cooler line to crack. The hose is the least expensive part of AN lines anyway, and if you run it all the way you eliminate fittings and adapters as potential failure points.

Just for God's sake don't jam NPT fittings in the trans. They're inverted flare, most likely 5/8-18 thread.
_________________________

1988 CVLX Formal Roof (Love Boat) POTM July 2019 & Aug 2020, 56K
E-code lights w/ relays, LEDs w/ switchbacks, 15x8 Ansen slots w/ 255/60 BFG's, Kenwood stereo, various hacks.
1988 CVLX (Destroyer) 1998-2001 driven to death 202K
1988 Squire (Chris Craft) 1996-1998 junkyard rescue driven to death 199K

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#4112150 - 06/10/21 02:19 PM Re: Cooling The Transmission Hard Use [Re: Traffic22]
2011LX Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 08/31/13
Posts: 1399
Loc: SE WI
Cracking a tube?

Cooler pressure does not equal line pressure. Pressure is very low in the cooler circuit. I can't imagine how a steel cooler line could crack.

That said, regular steel tube should be more than enough.
_________________________
2011 Crown Victoria LX - purchased @ 37k miles
currently @ 100k miles
Dark Toreador Red Metallic exterior
Medium Light Stone interior

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#4112182 - 06/10/21 09:10 PM Re: Cooling The Transmission Hard Use [Re: Traffic22]
Old_Guy_Stu Online   drunk

Over the Hill

Registered: 04/28/19
Posts: 2421
Loc: Cleveland, OH
Not so hard to imagine: Say you transitioned from steel line to AN using a tube adapter just after the elbow at the trans. That steel line is now supporting the AN line, unless you tie it up somewhere. Then beat on it around a track for 24 hours, hopping curbs, etc. It may not fail at all, but why take the chance? If you're gonna go AN, do it all the way.
_________________________

1988 CVLX Formal Roof (Love Boat) POTM July 2019 & Aug 2020, 56K
E-code lights w/ relays, LEDs w/ switchbacks, 15x8 Ansen slots w/ 255/60 BFG's, Kenwood stereo, various hacks.
1988 CVLX (Destroyer) 1998-2001 driven to death 202K
1988 Squire (Chris Craft) 1996-1998 junkyard rescue driven to death 199K

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#4112320 - 06/13/21 12:50 AM Re: Cooling The Transmission Hard Use [Re: Old_Guy_Stu]
Traffic22 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/14/12
Posts: 111
Loc: CA
I like the idea of running AN line the entire way. The fewer the connections the better.

Interestingly, I’ve been doing quite a bit of research on heat transfer, heat resistant materials, and how to dissipate heat.

I’ve actually decided to go with Silicone line for now. Pegasus Racing Supply sells a 3/8” 250 psi, oil resistant silicone hose by the foot. It is rated to 300 degrees.

We’re going to give it a try.

The game plan seems to change regularly when better information comes along, but as of now:

1) Fan has been wired through a 50 AMP relay, and thanks to some left over cop wiring, is on a circuit protected by a 50 amp fuse in the BJB. (It’s actually pretty cool to hear the fan come on full blast with the flip of a switch.)
2) Derale 40 row stacked plate cooler.
3) silicone lines running from the hard lines under the engine to the cooler, with no thermostat. (Maybe ditch the hard lines altogether down the road.)
4) front grill, and headlights are out to allow more air through the front.
5) I’m going to try and fabricate a better air deflector to push more air to the radiator area. (This was a suggestion in an earlier post and a really good one.)
6) found an old post that said pulling the rubber seal at the top of the hood helps high pressure air at the base of the windshield get pushed under the hood. Can’t hurt, we’ll try it.
7) We’re going to cut away a lot of the under hood support to drop weight, when we do that, we’ll chop a vent hole in the hood, and put some generic grill material in there. We’ll likely mimic the pattern used by Ford for the optional cop heat escape hood vent.
8) 100% synthetic trans fluid.

If all this doesn’t work, the only real option left is remotely located coolers with an attached fan.

Once it’s all in, I hope to get some open track time to test it all out.

Thank you everyone for all the suggestions and help, especially 88GrandMarq. (He’s answered way more questions, and given way more advice than I deserve, and he’s been friendly, patient and cool the entire time.)

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#4112502 - 06/15/21 09:06 AM Re: Cooling The Transmission Hard Use [Re: Traffic22]
Lance01 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/02/18
Posts: 489
Loc: Pa
Traffic, they make hood vents for the hoods of these cars that look pretty cool. I believe they're called Runcool hood louvers.

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#4112508 - 06/15/21 09:57 AM Re: Cooling The Transmission Hard Use [Re: Traffic22]
AlleyG Offline
Climber

Registered: 04/28/14
Posts: 574
Loc: Raleigh, NC
Not crazy about #3, silicone hose. I would stick with rubber hose approved for transmission fluid.

Al
_________________________
2004 CVPI - 85k miles
1997 T-Bird LX - 85k miles
1994 Supra Turbo - 107k miles
Previous Fords:
1988 T-Bird, 1995 T-Bird, 1996 Cougar

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#4112936 - 06/18/21 06:34 PM Re: Cooling The Transmission Hard Use [Re: AlleyG]
Traffic22 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/14/12
Posts: 111
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By AlleyG
Not crazy about #3, silicone hose. I would stick with rubber hose approved for transmission fluid.

Al


I made sure to select a hose that was safe with trans fluid. This is actually what we are going with. It supposed to dissipate heat better than basic runner hose.

We’ll see….

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=3290

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