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#4109666 - 05/19/21 09:39 AM [02 MGM LS] A/C takes time to kick in
SpitShine_PL Offline
Member

Registered: 01/08/19
Posts: 164
Loc: Poznan, Poland
Gentlemen, what am I looking at here?

The A/C (I got EATC) takes its sweet time to kick in. I think I'd need to check the refrigerant pressure, but it seems to be OK, because when it does kick in, the air blows hella cold.

The symptoms to clear things up:
1. EATC works, save for the dead backlighting. It can randomly switch between Celsius and Fahrenheit.
2. The vent diverter flaps work, reach every direction as commanded (floor, vents, windshield, closed cycle).
3. When turned on, the A/C will not blow for a long time. Note this: IT DOES NOT blow hot air from the heater core, it blows fresh air when running in any mode other than Max A/C (in the latter case, it will recycle the cabin air).
4. After a longer time, it starts blowing freezing cold air - as it should when the interior is hot.

I tested it today in these conditions:
Outdoor temp 64 F, cabin temp 72 F (the car sat in the sun). Wouldn't blow cold air from the A/C, just the cooler air from the outside (and recycle air in Max A/C). After 3-4 minutes of driving and fiddling with the EATC controls (blower speed, vent selection, Max A/C, turning it off and on again) I left in Max A/C, only then did it start blowing cold A/C air (after 1 more minute or so). When it blows cold air, it's hella cold, so I think the A/C charge is OK. The temp sensors read from the PCM read OK.

Is it the A/C pressure sensor, the EATC going out (bad solder somewhere), or the cabin air temp/sunlight sensor?
_________________________
"Gassy Grandma" (has dual fuel gas/LPG): '02 Mercury Grand Marquis LS HPP, Silver Frost: runs, drives and currently with mods in progress (headlight relay and wiring upgrade, H1 projector headlights, Bilsteins B6 all around, Arnott HD air springs in the rear, CHE Performance stiff tube rear control arms and Watts link)

'96 Chrysler Grand Voyager LE 3.3 V6

'15 Volvo V40 D5 Ocean Race trim coal smoker (least favorite but hella fast DD - former street appearance police car from La Spezia, Italy).

"You obviously have not been introduced to the ASTM Guidance for Profanity Gauging of Technical Services, Addendum#1, American English to Polish Scale Conversion, by which a repair done at a rate of 35 kurwas per 5 minutes means normal performance."

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#4111470 - 06/02/21 11:01 AM Re: [02 MGM LS] A/C takes time to kick in [Re: SpitShine_PL]
SpitShine_PL Offline
Member

Registered: 01/08/19
Posts: 164
Loc: Poznan, Poland
Huh. No one graced me with a suggestion, so I'll post a little update here.

Outside temp 76 F, cabin at just about the same, fired her up first time this day.
The A/C compressor took 10 minutes (!) to kick in; then it was blowing hella cold air, so I guess there's no coolant leak.
Left the car for 10 mins on a parking lot, went back, fired it up, the same happened. This time it took the A/C compressor 2-3 minutes to kick in.
Each time it happened I was switching between Max A/C, Normal A/C, and Auto, to no effect, until the compressor "felt like it".

Ran the EATC self diagnostic routine, no codes.

Do I need to go and have the refrigerant charge verified, or something?
_________________________
"Gassy Grandma" (has dual fuel gas/LPG): '02 Mercury Grand Marquis LS HPP, Silver Frost: runs, drives and currently with mods in progress (headlight relay and wiring upgrade, H1 projector headlights, Bilsteins B6 all around, Arnott HD air springs in the rear, CHE Performance stiff tube rear control arms and Watts link)

'96 Chrysler Grand Voyager LE 3.3 V6

'15 Volvo V40 D5 Ocean Race trim coal smoker (least favorite but hella fast DD - former street appearance police car from La Spezia, Italy).

"You obviously have not been introduced to the ASTM Guidance for Profanity Gauging of Technical Services, Addendum#1, American English to Polish Scale Conversion, by which a repair done at a rate of 35 kurwas per 5 minutes means normal performance."

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#4111566 - 06/03/21 11:22 AM Re: [02 MGM LS] A/C takes time to kick in [Re: SpitShine_PL]
Lance01 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/02/18
Posts: 459
Loc: Pa
You need a set of manifold gauges to measure the performance of your system. https://www.harborfreight.com/ac-r134a-manifold-gauge-set-60806.html


If you're not mechanically inclined take it to a shop and they will determine if your system needs a recharge.

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#4111578 - 06/03/21 01:01 PM Re: [02 MGM LS] A/C takes time to kick in [Re: SpitShine_PL]
SpitShine_PL Offline
Member

Registered: 01/08/19
Posts: 164
Loc: Poznan, Poland
I'll take it to the shop. As much as I love Harbor Freight, I can only windowshop it... Online. I'm not in the States, but approximately 4000 mi to the east. wink

What's the correct charge weight for our cars? 1.4 lbs?
_________________________
"Gassy Grandma" (has dual fuel gas/LPG): '02 Mercury Grand Marquis LS HPP, Silver Frost: runs, drives and currently with mods in progress (headlight relay and wiring upgrade, H1 projector headlights, Bilsteins B6 all around, Arnott HD air springs in the rear, CHE Performance stiff tube rear control arms and Watts link)

'96 Chrysler Grand Voyager LE 3.3 V6

'15 Volvo V40 D5 Ocean Race trim coal smoker (least favorite but hella fast DD - former street appearance police car from La Spezia, Italy).

"You obviously have not been introduced to the ASTM Guidance for Profanity Gauging of Technical Services, Addendum#1, American English to Polish Scale Conversion, by which a repair done at a rate of 35 kurwas per 5 minutes means normal performance."

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#4111584 - 06/03/21 01:44 PM Re: [02 MGM LS] A/C takes time to kick in [Re: SpitShine_PL]
Lance01 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/02/18
Posts: 459
Loc: Pa
Originally Posted By SpitShine_PL
I'll take it to the shop. As much as I love Harbor Freight, I can only windowshop it... Online. I'm not in the States, but approximately 4000 mi to the east. wink

What's the correct charge weight for our cars? 1.4 lbs?


https://www.crownvic.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=4013288#Post4013288

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#4111804 - 06/06/21 09:29 AM Re: [02 MGM LS] A/C takes time to kick in [Re: SpitShine_PL]
SpitShine_PL Offline
Member

Registered: 01/08/19
Posts: 164
Loc: Poznan, Poland
Thanks.

From what I see and been told, this issue might related to a wrong compressor clutch gap. Oh, gotta take a feeler gauge to it, then, and update this thread as it goes.
_________________________
"Gassy Grandma" (has dual fuel gas/LPG): '02 Mercury Grand Marquis LS HPP, Silver Frost: runs, drives and currently with mods in progress (headlight relay and wiring upgrade, H1 projector headlights, Bilsteins B6 all around, Arnott HD air springs in the rear, CHE Performance stiff tube rear control arms and Watts link)

'96 Chrysler Grand Voyager LE 3.3 V6

'15 Volvo V40 D5 Ocean Race trim coal smoker (least favorite but hella fast DD - former street appearance police car from La Spezia, Italy).

"You obviously have not been introduced to the ASTM Guidance for Profanity Gauging of Technical Services, Addendum#1, American English to Polish Scale Conversion, by which a repair done at a rate of 35 kurwas per 5 minutes means normal performance."

Top
#4112096 - 06/10/21 01:25 AM Re: [02 MGM LS] A/C takes time to kick in [Re: SpitShine_PL]
SpitShine_PL Offline
Member

Registered: 01/08/19
Posts: 164
Loc: Poznan, Poland
Okay, took a feeler gauge to the clutch plate on the A/C compressor. Read ~0.3-3.5 mm at every 120 deg. point around the circle, and the service manual says the gap setting should be within 0.35-0.75 mm, so I guess it's OK.

I'm now leaning to an electrical control issue. It's like something is not commanding to energize the A/C compressor clutch magnet to run, as if there was a feedback missing from one of the sensors in the A/C system or the EATC isn't running the compressor until it does.

Given that my EATC has developed a 'homesick syndrome' (switching from Celsius to Fahrenheit by itself), should I suspect that there's a PCB solder going bad in it and POSSIBLY causing this compressor run delay? As in, the EATC needs to stay tickled with power until it starts responding to what the A/C system sensors tell it and turn on the compressor?

And if not, what sensor outputs EXACTLY make the EATC resolve that the A/C compressor should run or not? I'll repeat - the A/C kicks in when the compressor is 'told' to kick in, and it is told with a HUGE delay - like, 10 minutes of driving at 80 F outside and 80-85 F in the cabin, when I start the car that sat for hours in the sun (and in this case the EATC blows air into the cabin, just without the A/C until the compressor kicks in).
_________________________
"Gassy Grandma" (has dual fuel gas/LPG): '02 Mercury Grand Marquis LS HPP, Silver Frost: runs, drives and currently with mods in progress (headlight relay and wiring upgrade, H1 projector headlights, Bilsteins B6 all around, Arnott HD air springs in the rear, CHE Performance stiff tube rear control arms and Watts link)

'96 Chrysler Grand Voyager LE 3.3 V6

'15 Volvo V40 D5 Ocean Race trim coal smoker (least favorite but hella fast DD - former street appearance police car from La Spezia, Italy).

"You obviously have not been introduced to the ASTM Guidance for Profanity Gauging of Technical Services, Addendum#1, American English to Polish Scale Conversion, by which a repair done at a rate of 35 kurwas per 5 minutes means normal performance."

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#4112184 - 06/10/21 09:15 PM Re: [02 MGM LS] A/C takes time to kick in [Re: SpitShine_PL]
2008interceptor Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 09/02/02
Posts: 3243
Loc: Pennsylvania
Does it come on at minimum fan speed then switch to high speed as the cool air starts. My old deville had a temp sensor in the vents. If it detected it was over x temp it would not blow much of anything for a little while. Then when it was able to quickly cool without blowing much hot vent air it would start up. I don't know what the system did exactly but it worked. But if a sensor somewhere was getting a false reading it would cause it to delay far longer than normal.
_________________________
2008 Ford Crown Victoria Police Interceptor P71 with street appearance package.

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#4112194 - 06/10/21 11:50 PM Re: [02 MGM LS] A/C takes time to kick in [Re: SpitShine_PL]
SpitShine_PL Offline
Member

Registered: 01/08/19
Posts: 164
Loc: Poznan, Poland
It might be so. Then again, when the EATC initializes to the control settings, it must be reading the temps OK because the blower starts running strong when the cabin is hot, as if trying to ventilate it with cold air... which is missing the 'cold' in it.

I consulted Gadget73 on GrandMarq and he suggested a bad solder on a leg of the power relay which commands the A/C compressor to run. An uncommon flaw, but not unheard of, and with the EATC display switching between Cs and Fs on its own, I think there's a goblin living on the PCB, up to no good.

I don't know if the EATC test routinge you can key in with the control panel buttons would detect this or a funky sensor, so I guess it's EATC removal time. Might drop in new backlighting bulbs in the process.


Edited by SpitShine_PL (06/10/21 11:52 PM)
_________________________
"Gassy Grandma" (has dual fuel gas/LPG): '02 Mercury Grand Marquis LS HPP, Silver Frost: runs, drives and currently with mods in progress (headlight relay and wiring upgrade, H1 projector headlights, Bilsteins B6 all around, Arnott HD air springs in the rear, CHE Performance stiff tube rear control arms and Watts link)

'96 Chrysler Grand Voyager LE 3.3 V6

'15 Volvo V40 D5 Ocean Race trim coal smoker (least favorite but hella fast DD - former street appearance police car from La Spezia, Italy).

"You obviously have not been introduced to the ASTM Guidance for Profanity Gauging of Technical Services, Addendum#1, American English to Polish Scale Conversion, by which a repair done at a rate of 35 kurwas per 5 minutes means normal performance."

Top
#4112628 - 06/16/21 11:17 AM Re: [02 MGM LS] A/C takes time to kick in [Re: SpitShine_PL]
SpitShine_PL Offline
Member

Registered: 01/08/19
Posts: 164
Loc: Poznan, Poland
Backprobed the A/C low pressure switch, harness side, as follows:
1. The car was sitting hot in the sun (since the morning).
2. Started the engine and proceeded to backprobe both wires of the switch on the dryer/accumulator as follows: first the violet one, which feeds power from the EATC relay, then the other one which goes to the A/C high pressure switch (followed by the PCM and the A/C clutch relay).
3. Both wires read 11.5 VDC, which I assume is OK and the A/C low pressure switch passed power to the A/C high pressure switch.

SURPRISE, SURPRISE - I took the backprobes from the wiring and resealed the insulation that I'd pierced for this test. A minute later -- not five, or 10 minutes from starting the vehicle - the A/C clutch field coil kicked in nicely, spinning up the compressor.

Now I wonder should I probe the harnesses downstream of the A/C low pressure switch, and downstream the A/C hi pressure switch, and finally, at the A/C clutch field coil? This tells me something's wrong electrical-wise.
_________________________
"Gassy Grandma" (has dual fuel gas/LPG): '02 Mercury Grand Marquis LS HPP, Silver Frost: runs, drives and currently with mods in progress (headlight relay and wiring upgrade, H1 projector headlights, Bilsteins B6 all around, Arnott HD air springs in the rear, CHE Performance stiff tube rear control arms and Watts link)

'96 Chrysler Grand Voyager LE 3.3 V6

'15 Volvo V40 D5 Ocean Race trim coal smoker (least favorite but hella fast DD - former street appearance police car from La Spezia, Italy).

"You obviously have not been introduced to the ASTM Guidance for Profanity Gauging of Technical Services, Addendum#1, American English to Polish Scale Conversion, by which a repair done at a rate of 35 kurwas per 5 minutes means normal performance."

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#4112994 - 06/19/21 02:23 AM Re: [02 MGM LS] A/C takes time to kick in [Re: SpitShine_PL]
SpitShine_PL Offline
Member

Registered: 01/08/19
Posts: 164
Loc: Poznan, Poland
UPDATE:
Welp, stumbled upon elves, fairies, unicorns, and all that weird tharmaturgy (or magic) that comes with electrical wiring systems on 19-year old cars.
I proceeded with reseating the connectors and relays. Before I got to the harness connector on the compressor field coil, I reseated the A/C cut-out relay within one minute from starting the engine and... BANG, the A/C kicked in instantly, cooling your truly with its best performance. A blessing at 90 F outside!

Ah, the mysteries of FoMoCo electrical engineering. The issue seems to be solved for now, tho I will take it to a shop for a refrig charge checkup.
_________________________
"Gassy Grandma" (has dual fuel gas/LPG): '02 Mercury Grand Marquis LS HPP, Silver Frost: runs, drives and currently with mods in progress (headlight relay and wiring upgrade, H1 projector headlights, Bilsteins B6 all around, Arnott HD air springs in the rear, CHE Performance stiff tube rear control arms and Watts link)

'96 Chrysler Grand Voyager LE 3.3 V6

'15 Volvo V40 D5 Ocean Race trim coal smoker (least favorite but hella fast DD - former street appearance police car from La Spezia, Italy).

"You obviously have not been introduced to the ASTM Guidance for Profanity Gauging of Technical Services, Addendum#1, American English to Polish Scale Conversion, by which a repair done at a rate of 35 kurwas per 5 minutes means normal performance."

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#4113070 - Yesterday at 09:08 AM Re: [02 MGM LS] A/C takes time to kick in [Re: SpitShine_PL]
SpitShine_PL Offline
Member

Registered: 01/08/19
Posts: 164
Loc: Poznan, Poland
Oh boy, this thing is back to pester me again.

No compressor run for 5 minutes from a 'cold' start at 92 F oustide. This time I got onto something:

Started the car again at a mall parking lot, no heat, despite the sunload sensor in the sun and the ambient temp of 92 F. I popped the hood this instant and what do I see?

The A/C compressor pulley STUTTERING to start spinning.

Like, half a spin, stop, half a spin, stop, etc. It did so ten odd times, and each stop was shorter, until it spun right up.

Am I guessing correctly that there's some sort of interruption in electrical wiring right ahead of the A/C compressor clutch?
The belt was running nicely and without slipping, the tensioner wasn't kicking back or anything to suggest a slip.
I think the clutch is worn out and might not be pulling in all the way on the first try, or there's something wrong with the voltage between the high pressure switch and the A/C compressor clutch field coil.

Time to break out the multimeter and take it to the clutch connector for starters, I guess.
_________________________
"Gassy Grandma" (has dual fuel gas/LPG): '02 Mercury Grand Marquis LS HPP, Silver Frost: runs, drives and currently with mods in progress (headlight relay and wiring upgrade, H1 projector headlights, Bilsteins B6 all around, Arnott HD air springs in the rear, CHE Performance stiff tube rear control arms and Watts link)

'96 Chrysler Grand Voyager LE 3.3 V6

'15 Volvo V40 D5 Ocean Race trim coal smoker (least favorite but hella fast DD - former street appearance police car from La Spezia, Italy).

"You obviously have not been introduced to the ASTM Guidance for Profanity Gauging of Technical Services, Addendum#1, American English to Polish Scale Conversion, by which a repair done at a rate of 35 kurwas per 5 minutes means normal performance."

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#4113072 - Yesterday at 10:20 AM Re: [02 MGM LS] A/C takes time to kick in [Re: SpitShine_PL]
Rootintootin Offline
Climber

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 638
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By SpitShine_PL
there's something wrong with the voltage between the high pressure switch and the A/C compressor clutch field coil.

What that switch does is open the circuit to the cycling switch when discharge pressure exceeds about 400-445 psi. If that fails and pressures exceed the limit, the pressure relief valve in the manifold takes over so you don't damage the compressor or lose all your charge.

The cycling switch is what energizes the clutch field coils.

Put a manifold gauge set on and watch the numbers to find out what is really happening.

Sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt your monologue.


Edited by Rootintootin (Yesterday at 10:23 AM)
_________________________
97 CVPI, 143K miles, small trans fluid leak from front seal area, water leaks to inside from evaporator housing and drivers side A pillar, cold weather glitch with wiper motor, headliner covering starting to flake off, tear in drivers seat bottom. Flickering, blinking radio display, What's next?

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#4113086 - Yesterday at 01:06 PM Re: [02 MGM LS] A/C takes time to kick in [Re: SpitShine_PL]
SpitShine_PL Offline
Member

Registered: 01/08/19
Posts: 164
Loc: Poznan, Poland
I'll take any advice, so don't be sorry!

The voltage is there, I tested it.

Aaaand I think I found the issue.
I took a small steel mallet to the clutch plate/hub and gave it some good banging (tee-hee) all around the circumference. Started the car (it was sitting for several hours in the sun) and the compressor started like champ in less than a minute.
I think it's time to take the clutch hub apart, take off the pulley, and regrease the inner splines, the shaft and the shims. I might sponsor this fat lady a new clutch and pulley assembly next month...

As for the pressure gauge test, I'll just take it to a shop 300 yards down the road, they don't charge much for these tests out here. It's a good idea to check if the charge is right.


Edited by SpitShine_PL (Yesterday at 01:07 PM)
_________________________
"Gassy Grandma" (has dual fuel gas/LPG): '02 Mercury Grand Marquis LS HPP, Silver Frost: runs, drives and currently with mods in progress (headlight relay and wiring upgrade, H1 projector headlights, Bilsteins B6 all around, Arnott HD air springs in the rear, CHE Performance stiff tube rear control arms and Watts link)

'96 Chrysler Grand Voyager LE 3.3 V6

'15 Volvo V40 D5 Ocean Race trim coal smoker (least favorite but hella fast DD - former street appearance police car from La Spezia, Italy).

"You obviously have not been introduced to the ASTM Guidance for Profanity Gauging of Technical Services, Addendum#1, American English to Polish Scale Conversion, by which a repair done at a rate of 35 kurwas per 5 minutes means normal performance."

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