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#4113448 - 06/24/21 07:03 PM Re: Dim/Flickering Odometer Fix [Re: GM_Guy]
GM_Guy Offline
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Registered: 12/17/00
Posts: 18663
Loc: London, Ontario Canada
mini-update:
Original cvpi cluster replaced with an mgm message center cluster. No problems since, and a suspicion I have had for some time about the erratic fuel guage being cluster related and not fuel sender related is confirmed. At least in my case (insert usual caveats here).
With the cluster swap I have a fuel guage that moves steadily with fuel consumption. And will intantly react when you fillup.

My stand on this; if all you got is a dim or flickering odometer, do the original outlined resoldering in this thread. It'll bring that to life.

If you have other issues such as gauges that are erratic, odometer randomnly just goes dark (unrelated to the original fix) along with every other indicator light (except turn signals as that is direct signal from the lcm) do a hot air resolder of the main processor IC. If that does not work, or you end up with a brick like I did, find a replacement cluster & if you opt for the message center cluster you might want the center trim strip with the 4 switches--you will have to add three wires to the new cluster to hook up the switch array. Or roll your own with some momentary switches and appropriate resistors.

BEFORE you do that (the soldering/hot airing the processor), get forscan and make note of the instrument cluster data while the original cluster is still in the car. You will need to write this to the new cluster you get, regardless of what kind of car it came out of. If you don't you will have false warning lights for options you do not have, or no warnings for options you do have. It'll be a grand total of 2 sets of 4 hex digits, the 2nd set usually being all zeros. Ie: A800 0000 (thats a pi cluster, with hour meter, tpms
warning disabled, no traction control).

-It matters not what options the car you pull the cluster from has. Forscan will take care of that for you when you write your original data to it.
-MGM or CV matters not. Pointers will be white with the lights off on an mgm cluster. If you like red pointers, swap the mgm pointers for the ones from your original cluster.
-no idea about the town car cluster, it'll probably work, as its also canbus, but that is an experiment for you to undertake on your own. Same thing; gotta write your original cvpi cluster data to the tc cluster with forscan. I suggest getting your hands on a tc evtm and compare it to the cvgm.
-2007-2011; canbus cars.
-you will enable the hour meter (starts at zero) on a message center cluster when you write your original cluster data to it with forscan if your car had an hour meter.
Or, you can eliminate the hour meter entirely if you want by modifying the cluster data appropriately.
-mileage and hours are stored in the cluster. You will get whatever mileage is on the donor cluster. Legally (check your locals, what the rules are for me may not be the same for you). Sticker on your door with original cluster mileage and hours + date, and mileage hours on your replacement cluster.



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#4113454 - 06/24/21 07:35 PM Re: Dim/Flickering Odometer Fix [Re: GM_Guy]
Davidzq Offline
Climber

Registered: 01/19/15
Posts: 566
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By GM_Guy

-no idea about the town car cluster, it'll probably work, as its also canbus, but that is an experiment for you to undertake on your own. Same thing; gotta write your original cvpi cluster data to the tc cluster with forscan. I suggest getting your hands on a tc evtm and compare it to the cvgm.


The Towncar cluster is physically identical, just with a different gauge face glued on. However, the Towncar cluster will disable your AC compressor.
I've done a small bit of experimenting with this, including changing As-Built data, but have this far been unable to determine the cause or the fix. Seems to be something in the firmware related to the CANBUS communication.
Those who want the look of the TC cluster are encouraged to get both a TC and Vic/MGM message center cluster and simply swap the gauge face and needles.
_________________________
David Hensley
Member of Northwest Panthers Car Club

2008 P71, Norsea Blue SAP
-Message Center cluster retrofit
-Towncar Signature L heated power seats
-Long overhead console
-Compustar remote start/security

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#4113502 - 06/25/21 02:30 PM Re: Dim/Flickering Odometer Fix [Re: GM_Guy]
GM_Guy Offline
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Registered: 12/17/00
Posts: 18663
Loc: London, Ontario Canada
Interesting fact about the a/c. Does the TC have in in-cab temperature sensor thats tied in with the hvac? (is the eatc the same as the cvgm's with eatc, or something fancier?)
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#4113524 - 06/25/21 07:57 PM Re: Dim/Flickering Odometer Fix [Re: GM_Guy]
Davidzq Offline
Climber

Registered: 01/19/15
Posts: 566
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By GM_Guy
Interesting fact about the a/c. Does the TC have in in-cab temperature sensor thats tied in with the hvac? (is the eatc the same as the cvgm's with eatc, or something fancier?)


Yes, it has the same temp sensor as civilian Vic/Grand Marquis with EATC.
Though the Towncar EATC (and the entire HVAC system) is completely different (Towncars have electric mode doors and dual zone temperature control).

The instrument cluster controls the MS-CAN network, and serves as the bridge between the MS-CAN and HS-CAN.
Because of this, I assume there must be some specific uneditable firmware programming in the TC cluster to support the different EATC system (which is a MS-CAN module). The signal from the EATC to PCM to command the AC is done via the MS/HS-CAN network on Towncars.
However, on Vic/MGM, the EATC/Manual controls provide power to the AC cycling (pressure) switch to command the AC. The EATC is part of the MS-CAN network, but manual controls are not networked at all.
SO even though the Towncar system is different, I don't see why it should be affecting the AC on other panthers, and yet it does.
_________________________
David Hensley
Member of Northwest Panthers Car Club

2008 P71, Norsea Blue SAP
-Message Center cluster retrofit
-Towncar Signature L heated power seats
-Long overhead console
-Compustar remote start/security

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#4113570 - 06/26/21 12:18 PM Re: Dim/Flickering Odometer Fix [Re: GM_Guy]
GM_Guy Offline
Posting Addict

Registered: 12/17/00
Posts: 18663
Loc: London, Ontario Canada
You wouldn't have a pinout for the ltc instrument cluster connector would you? See if theres a pin thats populated on the tc that doesn't exist on the cvgm.
And for curiosity sake, what did you program the tc instrument cluster to (hex data)?


Edited by GM_Guy (06/26/21 12:20 PM)
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#4113578 - 06/26/21 01:24 PM Re: Dim/Flickering Odometer Fix [Re: GM_Guy]
Davidzq Offline
Climber

Registered: 01/19/15
Posts: 566
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By GM_Guy
You wouldn't have a pinout for the ltc instrument cluster connector would you? See if theres a pin thats populated on the tc that doesn't exist on the cvgm.
And for curiosity sake, what did you program the tc instrument cluster to (hex data)?


Pinout is identical, asside from the following additional on TC:
24 - Parking Aid Enable
25 - Parking Aid Disable
28 - Compass Data -
29 - Compass Data +


I tried a few different As-Built configurations from LX/MGM, all resulted in the same AC inoperable.

I was working on further deciding of As-Built data, but ETIS went down a couple months ago, which has really hindered my efforts.
I've found that many TCs have bit 5 enabled, but many do not, and base MGMs (non-message center) also have it enabled.
Bit 39 is enabled in all TC, but only in non-MC Vic/MGM (including P71).
Bits 33-40 otherwise seem to be randomly enabled/disabled across all panthers, with no visible correlation to options.


Edited by Davidzq (06/26/21 01:34 PM)
_________________________
David Hensley
Member of Northwest Panthers Car Club

2008 P71, Norsea Blue SAP
-Message Center cluster retrofit
-Towncar Signature L heated power seats
-Long overhead console
-Compustar remote start/security

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#4113592 - 06/26/21 07:40 PM Re: Dim/Flickering Odometer Fix [Re: GM_Guy]
GM_Guy Offline
Posting Addict

Registered: 12/17/00
Posts: 18663
Loc: London, Ontario Canada
Whats the latest hex data you flashed to the cluster?

What does your car have? ie traction control, tpms. And wether you want tpms warning on or not if you got it.

Want an active hour meter? Flash this to it 0A80 0000 No tc, no tpms and see what happens with the a/c.

How are you getting bits 39 & 40? At most there is 32 bits in the IC string, with only the first batch of 4 hex digits usually being populated, and the remaining three usually zero's.
ie 0A80 0000 0000 0000 + two hex digits for the checksum (which I don't change).

Give me the last hex you wrote to it. I'll see if what info I have jives with what you got.
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#4113598 - 06/26/21 09:17 PM Re: Dim/Flickering Odometer Fix [Re: GM_Guy]
Davidzq Offline
Climber

Registered: 01/19/15
Posts: 566
Loc: Seattle, WA
The cluster As-Built is blocks of 4, 4, and 2.
For a total of 40 bits.

This was many months ago that I played with the As-Built, I don't even have a LTC cluster anymore to play with.
As such, I don't remember exactly what the As-Built I programmed in was, but there were at least three attempts using 07+ LX/LS As-Builts, representing a pool of options (air suspension, TPMS, etc). I have a few spreadsheets with various VINs/As-Built/options, do I'm able to customize to suit whatever needs I may have None of the known bits should have any affect on the AC issue, and it seems none of the unknown bits had an effect either.

My recent As-Built decoding work was actually focused on the TC Driver Door Module, as they will usually (but not always 🤷🏼‍♂️) cause issues with the door ajar sensors and lock functions in other panthers. And with nine strings of 48 bits each, there's plenty of opportunity for differences.
_________________________
David Hensley
Member of Northwest Panthers Car Club

2008 P71, Norsea Blue SAP
-Message Center cluster retrofit
-Towncar Signature L heated power seats
-Long overhead console
-Compustar remote start/security

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#4113638 - 06/27/21 10:50 AM Re: Dim/Flickering Odometer Fix [Re: GM_Guy]
GM_Guy Offline
Posting Addict

Registered: 12/17/00
Posts: 18663
Loc: London, Ontario Canada
Okay, 40,I'm new to counting. =-) but I don't include the checksum since it doesn't control an option status. I let the car do what it wants with that, never been able to write a checksum without forscan complaining even if its verbatim from another cars as built data.

Ultimately, it is only the first batch of four hex digits that are of any use to us, everything else is 0000's in every car I looked at. Ultimately, 16 binary bits to work with.
ie 0A80 0000 0000 0000 0000 1f including the two for checksum.
0A80 is all we got to work with, which ultimately is 16 binary bits we have to toggle.
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