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#4056550 - 04/05/20 09:09 PM Re: Jerry's Crown Victorias [Re: av8or1]
Blu Offline
Climber

Registered: 11/27/07
Posts: 600
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
I actually pulled that water pump info from CVN.

The FRPP pump was either from ADTR or AM. IDR it was a long time ago. https://www.americanmuscle.com/ford-racing-oil-pump.html $81.99 + free shipping right now, you'll need to notch the oil pan baffle
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#4056552 - 04/05/20 09:46 PM Re: Jerry's Crown Victorias [Re: av8or1]
Blu Offline
Climber

Registered: 11/27/07
Posts: 600
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
So the MOTORCRAFT PW423 is the long body version. Ive been looking for a motorcraft unit, short body big impeller. Still looking.. Seems like 'navi pump' mod is a really 'navi pump and pulley' job.
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#4056584 - 04/06/20 01:06 AM Re: Jerry's Crown Victorias [Re: BigMerc96]
av8or1 Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 10/18/17
Posts: 1632
Loc: TX
Originally Posted By BigMerc96
The reason for the supposed "incompatibility" is because there are 2 lengths for Modular pumps. '91-'01 engines all used a "long" pump, however in mid-'01 they began phasing in a newer "short" pump. More than likely the short pumps came to exist because of a change elsewhere in the Modular world of vehicles, didn't the Mustang get a mid-gen refresh in '01? Either way, from then on, the cars all got the short pump. Most trucks retained the long pump because they kept their mechanical fans and the longer pump housing offers more support for the extra weight hanging off of it.

I want to say the '01ish Cobras with the DOHC used a short length pump with the updated impeller design. That was the origin of that design of impeller. The DOHC Navigator and all 3v trucks used that same impeller design, but they were the longer pump because they used mechanical fans. I would imagine a 3v Mustang does too, and would just use the same "short" pump as the earlier DOHC. So for me and my '98, I used the Navigator/3v pump. So what if I have threads on it for a fan clutch I won't have? For you and your '06, you would need the cobra DOHC pump. However, I believe at some point all of the Modular engines had the updated impeller, so it might not even matter as it might be what your car already has.

All of this ultimately doesn't really matter because the pumps actually interchange completely. The only thing you need to change is the pulley so the belt stays aligned. So if you get the "long" pump, you need the "domed" pulley that goes with that pump type. If you get a "short" pump, you need the "dished" pulley that goes with that pump. Or just get a pump that works with the pulley you have. All Modular V8's and even the V10 all used the same pump mounting flange so it doesn't matter if its a 2v/3v/4v, the pumps physically fit the same on the block.

FWIW, here's my '98s original pump next to the upgraded/updated pump (from a 3v F150):


You can see the huge difference in impeller design. I didn't do it as a pre-planned upgrade, it was because I needed a new pump and decided to get the better one while I'm at it. I didn't have any overheating issues before, and I still don't after, can't say I really noticed a difference other than it not seeping antifreeze. I would expect its pretty much the same reason you would do it.

BigMerc-

Great information, thanks! So in the end you're recommending a Cobra DOHC pump, along with a check to see which pulley type I'll need, or else replace the pulley on the new pump for the one I have now if they don't match, correct? I think what would be interesting would be to source one of these Cobra DOHC pumps and compare it to what I have now to see if indeed the later models all received the same upgraded pump. That might be valuable information. If so, I could just replace it with a stock pump from that same year model (or later, I doubt they changed thereafter) and call it good.

And you're correct, the primary reason I am investigating a water pump upgrade is simply because I want to replace the existing one with new. So while I'm doing that, I might as well see if there's an upgrade that can be had. Same idea with the oil pump, though I am coming up empty on that front at present. TBD.

Ok. I'll have to table it for now, but will *definitely* revisit this in the near future.

Thanks again!
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2010 CVPI (Former TEXAS Highway Patrol vehicle) POTM April 2020 POTM June 2021 double thumbs
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#4056586 - 04/06/20 01:08 AM Re: Jerry's Crown Victorias [Re: Blu]
av8or1 Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 10/18/17
Posts: 1632
Loc: TX
Originally Posted By Blu
I actually pulled that water pump info from CVN.

The FRPP pump was either from ADTR or AM. IDR it was a long time ago. https://www.americanmuscle.com/ford-racing-oil-pump.html $81.99 + free shipping right now, you'll need to notch the oil pan baffle

Ah I see. Well that pump is only good through 2004, so it won't work for me. Not interested in notching anything, so I'll pass. I have enough on my plate. If there isn't a bolt-on replacement that is considered an upgrade, I'll just replace with the old one with a new stock pump.

Thanks!
_________________________
2010 CVPI (Former TEXAS Highway Patrol vehicle) POTM April 2020 POTM June 2021 double thumbs
2006 LX Sport air ride delete (2)
2006 F450 SD 6.0L PSD CC LWB flatbed 4x4
1985 Mazda RX7 GSL-SE
1970 Plymouth Road Runner A383 pistol grip tick-tock buckets

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#4056590 - 04/06/20 01:13 AM Re: Jerry's Crown Victorias [Re: av8or1]
av8or1 Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 10/18/17
Posts: 1632
Loc: TX
Had a little time to futz around in the workshop tonight, so I decided to perform some additional cleaning chores. I decided to revisit the rear cover quickly to do just a little better job of cleaning the oil staining than I did last night. It came out better:


However the primary focus of tonight would be the front cover. Also made of aluminum, this cover is appreciably larger. I began by taking pictures of each and every location on this cover where I found RTV. The idea being to duplicate that when I put it back together. The essence is straightforward: you apply the RTV wherever there is a union of different components, such as the cover to the block and the cover to the oil pan. However documentation is good, and thus I kicked things off tonight with just that.
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2010 CVPI (Former TEXAS Highway Patrol vehicle) POTM April 2020 POTM June 2021 double thumbs
2006 LX Sport air ride delete (2)
2006 F450 SD 6.0L PSD CC LWB flatbed 4x4
1985 Mazda RX7 GSL-SE
1970 Plymouth Road Runner A383 pistol grip tick-tock buckets

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#4056592 - 04/06/20 01:16 AM Re: Jerry's Crown Victorias [Re: av8or1]
av8or1 Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 10/18/17
Posts: 1632
Loc: TX
Although not extremely dirty, it's seen better days:


The inside was oil stained just as the rear cover was:


No big whoop. I did find a swirl mark on the front, pax (or RH) side of this cover. Some material had been removed in the process. Not sure how that happened, but it didn't seem like it would affect the ability of the front cover to perform its duties, so I pressed ahead.
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2010 CVPI (Former TEXAS Highway Patrol vehicle) POTM April 2020 POTM June 2021 double thumbs
2006 LX Sport air ride delete (2)
2006 F450 SD 6.0L PSD CC LWB flatbed 4x4
1985 Mazda RX7 GSL-SE
1970 Plymouth Road Runner A383 pistol grip tick-tock buckets

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#4056594 - 04/06/20 01:18 AM Re: Jerry's Crown Victorias [Re: av8or1]
av8or1 Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 10/18/17
Posts: 1632
Loc: TX
The end result was a cleaner front cover than when it went into the parts washer, and that is acceptable for this build:


The outcome of the inside cleaning was acceptable as well:
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2010 CVPI (Former TEXAS Highway Patrol vehicle) POTM April 2020 POTM June 2021 double thumbs
2006 LX Sport air ride delete (2)
2006 F450 SD 6.0L PSD CC LWB flatbed 4x4
1985 Mazda RX7 GSL-SE
1970 Plymouth Road Runner A383 pistol grip tick-tock buckets

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#4056596 - 04/06/20 01:22 AM Re: Jerry's Crown Victorias [Re: av8or1]
av8or1 Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 10/18/17
Posts: 1632
Loc: TX
One curious phenomenon that I observed (and that was unexpected) about the front cover was that immediately adjacent to the middle mounting hole, on the inside of the cover, along the top/center of the "V" shape someone had applied a noticeable amount of RTV/sealant:


And:
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2010 CVPI (Former TEXAS Highway Patrol vehicle) POTM April 2020 POTM June 2021 double thumbs
2006 LX Sport air ride delete (2)
2006 F450 SD 6.0L PSD CC LWB flatbed 4x4
1985 Mazda RX7 GSL-SE
1970 Plymouth Road Runner A383 pistol grip tick-tock buckets

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#4056598 - 04/06/20 01:23 AM Re: Jerry's Crown Victorias [Re: av8or1]
av8or1 Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 10/18/17
Posts: 1632
Loc: TX
And for a closeup:


And:
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2010 CVPI (Former TEXAS Highway Patrol vehicle) POTM April 2020 POTM June 2021 double thumbs
2006 LX Sport air ride delete (2)
2006 F450 SD 6.0L PSD CC LWB flatbed 4x4
1985 Mazda RX7 GSL-SE
1970 Plymouth Road Runner A383 pistol grip tick-tock buckets

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#4056600 - 04/06/20 01:25 AM Re: Jerry's Crown Victorias [Re: av8or1]
av8or1 Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 10/18/17
Posts: 1632
Loc: TX
This confused me. These do nothing, as can be seen once the RTV was removed. Thus:


And:


So what the heck? Why was this RTV/sealant there at all? Does anyone have any ideas? I'll replicate it during re-installation, but would like to know why...
_________________________
2010 CVPI (Former TEXAS Highway Patrol vehicle) POTM April 2020 POTM June 2021 double thumbs
2006 LX Sport air ride delete (2)
2006 F450 SD 6.0L PSD CC LWB flatbed 4x4
1985 Mazda RX7 GSL-SE
1970 Plymouth Road Runner A383 pistol grip tick-tock buckets

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#4056602 - 04/06/20 01:27 AM Re: Jerry's Crown Victorias [Re: av8or1]
av8or1 Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 10/18/17
Posts: 1632
Loc: TX
I mean, none of its identical neighbors have RTV/sealant on them:


And:


So what gives? My only thought was that these were/are adjacent to the water pump and so they could use a little "extra" sealer. 'Seems like a stretch though...might be the cylinder heads...


Edited by av8or1 (04/06/20 04:02 AM)
_________________________
2010 CVPI (Former TEXAS Highway Patrol vehicle) POTM April 2020 POTM June 2021 double thumbs
2006 LX Sport air ride delete (2)
2006 F450 SD 6.0L PSD CC LWB flatbed 4x4
1985 Mazda RX7 GSL-SE
1970 Plymouth Road Runner A383 pistol grip tick-tock buckets

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#4056604 - 04/06/20 01:29 AM Re: Jerry's Crown Victorias [Re: av8or1]
av8or1 Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 10/18/17
Posts: 1632
Loc: TX
Hmmmmmmm...well I would have to table that for the time being, as I needed to remove the front seal:


Funny, but I don't even remember the rear seal during the removal. That thing must have just flown out by comparison to this front seal. It didn't want to budge. lol

However with a mere twisting of its arm with a strong set of pliers, out it came:


Edited by av8or1 (04/06/20 01:31 AM)
_________________________
2010 CVPI (Former TEXAS Highway Patrol vehicle) POTM April 2020 POTM June 2021 double thumbs
2006 LX Sport air ride delete (2)
2006 F450 SD 6.0L PSD CC LWB flatbed 4x4
1985 Mazda RX7 GSL-SE
1970 Plymouth Road Runner A383 pistol grip tick-tock buckets

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#4056606 - 04/06/20 01:34 AM Re: Jerry's Crown Victorias [Re: av8or1]
av8or1 Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 10/18/17
Posts: 1632
Loc: TX
Has a metal support ring inside too:


Both seals are on the list that I sent to the parts fellas, naturally. It doesn't appear to me that the rear seal has a retaining ring. If anyone knows differently, let me know. However it appears that the rear seal remains put all by its lonesome. I've seen some with this same design that do require a retainer. However I don't see it in the parts diagram for the 4.6 and don't recall one during disassembly, so that'll be my operating understanding for the time being.

I hope to hear something from the parts department tomorrow. TBD.

Anyway thanks!
_________________________
2010 CVPI (Former TEXAS Highway Patrol vehicle) POTM April 2020 POTM June 2021 double thumbs
2006 LX Sport air ride delete (2)
2006 F450 SD 6.0L PSD CC LWB flatbed 4x4
1985 Mazda RX7 GSL-SE
1970 Plymouth Road Runner A383 pistol grip tick-tock buckets

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#4056610 - 04/06/20 01:48 AM Re: Jerry's Crown Victorias [Re: av8or1]
bluejay_32 Offline
Grand Poobah

Registered: 08/28/16
Posts: 11157
Loc: wny
Is that where the head meets the block?
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Originally Posted By BigNSlow
Stop watching Scotty Kilmer, he reverses evolution.

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#4056620 - 04/06/20 02:29 AM Re: Jerry's Crown Victorias [Re: bluejay_32]
av8or1 Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 10/18/17
Posts: 1632
Loc: TX
Originally Posted By bluejay_32
Is that where the head meets the block?

Yeah that's it:


And when you look closely, you can actually see the RTV protruding up through the join of the front cover to the block:


Somehow I envisioned the cylinder heads meeting the front cover in a different location ... and maybe I'm conjuring up things to think/obssess about since I am in a holding pattern waiting on parts! lol

And disregard the text in the second picture. It's no longer a mystery. Duh. biggrin


Edited by av8or1 (04/06/20 02:40 AM)
_________________________
2010 CVPI (Former TEXAS Highway Patrol vehicle) POTM April 2020 POTM June 2021 double thumbs
2006 LX Sport air ride delete (2)
2006 F450 SD 6.0L PSD CC LWB flatbed 4x4
1985 Mazda RX7 GSL-SE
1970 Plymouth Road Runner A383 pistol grip tick-tock buckets

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