#564380 - 10/22/04 09:28 AM
K&N filter results
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Rookie
Registered: 09/03/04
Posts: 55
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Hey all, I installed a K&N filter last night to try and help MPG and HP. I have read several post here and it was about 50/50 on doind it. But since I have a friend at the local AutoZone who gave me a good deal I figured why not. So I installed it (which was very easy) and took it out for a test run. I noticed it seemed to have more HP than it did with the stock setup (the filter might have needed changing). I did notice the growl everybody talked about which was OK but I really was not looking for that. It seams to be running good through acceleration but at idle it is a little rough. I talked to the guy at AutoZone and he said it might take a couple of miles for the computer to adjust. I also cleaned my MAF and EGR at the same time I did the filter. I know I said a lot but is all of this pretty normal for what I have done to the car?????? 
_________________________
2004 P71 Black/Dark Charcole 89000 miles
K&N FIPK Gen II
Pro copper console
Bearcat BC350A scanner
Motorola VHF Police radio
2 power supplies with 8 strobe heads
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#564381 - 10/22/04 10:59 AM
Re: K&N filter results
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Over the Hill
Registered: 08/11/03
Posts: 1592
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good choice dude K&N is the way to go!
_________________________
Sct Xcalibrator II
Mercury Marauder 80 mm MAF+Airbox
Ford Racing Underdrive Pulleys/3.55 Gear
Ford Racing Wire Set, Muffler Deleted
TransGo Shift Kit
Knn Air Filter,
17'' ASA LS1 Wheels with 245/45/17 Dayton Daytona ,Mobil 1 oil,Hi flow cats,x pipe ,Ractive 3 3/8 10,000 rpm Tachometer
180 Thermostat
22c plugs
in some weeks:
Comp Modular Camshaft
PI Intake
04 Zip Tube
70 mm Ford Racing TB
Adtr Ported Upper Plenum
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#564382 - 10/22/04 11:16 AM
Re: K&N filter results
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Member
Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 252
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did you get the FIPK or just the panel filter?
_________________________
Can't spell Grand Marquis without Grandma
2003 Grand Marquis LS
K&N FIPK
2 1/4" dual exhaust w/ magnaflows
SCT Big Air MAF
Excal-2
Steeda u/d
180* thermostat
Steeda Underdrive pulleys
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#564383 - 10/22/04 11:24 AM
Re: K&N filter results
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Over the Hill
Registered: 03/20/02
Posts: 4160
Loc: Wakefield, Massachusetts
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It's good for MAYBE 1 horsepower on a NA Crown Vic.
BUT it quickly fouls the MAF, causing a whole littany of unwanted issues.
My advice, return it and put in a plain old cheapy air filter. Better to save your money for a mod that actually has beneficial results.
_________________________
1995 Mercury Grand Marquis LS HPP - 114k miles - TOTALED by Box truck in June of 2005
Current: 2008 Honda Civic SI 2-door
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#564384 - 10/22/04 11:38 AM
Re: K&N filter results
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Over the Hill
Registered: 04/19/03
Posts: 3156
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_________________________
I'm Dark, I'm Dan....I'm Darkdan.  98 CVPI With A Black Grill! Southern MN's Cheapest (and 2nd worst) window tinter! 3M Paint Protection Film!
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#564385 - 10/22/04 11:58 AM
Re: K&N filter results
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Tech Admin
Grand Poobah
Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 13025
Loc: Socialist state of MN
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You really should reset the KAM after cleaning the MAF.
A new clean K&N panel air filter will net you somewhere between -1 and 0 RWHP over a dirty stock paper filter. I know, I dyno tested K&N against my old dirty filter.
_________________________
- 2004 Mercury Grand Marquis (GMQ) GS - aka "Data"
Save MILLIONS, vote to outsource our Executives!
What happeded to "government by the people, of the people and for the people"?
RIP Ronald W. Reagan "The Great #40"
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#564386 - 10/22/04 12:01 PM
Re: K&N filter results
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Rookie
Registered: 09/03/04
Posts: 55
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How do you reset the KAM???
_________________________
2004 P71 Black/Dark Charcole 89000 miles
K&N FIPK Gen II
Pro copper console
Bearcat BC350A scanner
Motorola VHF Police radio
2 power supplies with 8 strobe heads
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#564387 - 10/22/04 12:19 PM
Re: K&N filter results
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Tech Admin
Grand Poobah
Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 13025
Loc: Socialist state of MN
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Pull the neg battery cable, or the Keep Alive power fuse for the PCM/EEC.
_________________________
- 2004 Mercury Grand Marquis (GMQ) GS - aka "Data"
Save MILLIONS, vote to outsource our Executives!
What happeded to "government by the people, of the people and for the people"?
RIP Ronald W. Reagan "The Great #40"
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#564388 - 10/22/04 04:20 PM
Re: K&N filter results
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Climber
Registered: 01/09/04
Posts: 565
Loc: Dawg Pound
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http://home.usadatanet.net/~jbplock/ISO5011/SPICER.htm Fair enough, but before I changed to the K&N from a motorcraft I would see 13 mpg average in my 98PI. After the K&N install, I now see upwards of 16.5 pure city driving. Can't beat that, and no problems with vibration. I have yet to clean the MAF though, because I can't find a tool with the security dimple.
_________________________
98 CVPI .jpg)
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#564389 - 10/22/04 05:16 PM
Re: K&N filter results
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Over the Hill
Registered: 04/19/03
Posts: 3156
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Keep in mind flow and filteration are inversely proportional.
_________________________
I'm Dark, I'm Dan....I'm Darkdan. 98 CVPI With A Black Grill! Southern MN's Cheapest (and 2nd worst) window tinter! 3M Paint Protection Film!
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#564390 - 10/22/04 07:55 PM
Re: K&N filter results
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Over the Hill
Registered: 08/31/04
Posts: 3645
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people on this site are going to ABSOLUTELY CRINGE, but I just cut a slot in the top of the security torx with a dremel, removed them with a screwdriver and replaced them with regular torx. I know it's hacking but now it's done.
_________________________
1993 GM LS
243k miles
29.5mm PI front bar(ENS greaseable poly bushings),21mm HPP rear bar(ENS poly bushings/endlinks),Mechanical Stewart-Warner oil pressure gauge. Black steelies/center caps...K&N filter
1994 Lincoln Mark VIII
144k miles
All airbags switched to coils/struts, junk tranny, motor donor car
Mercury Owners Group
This is a disclaimer:
This post is the opinion of the person in question. It is presented as nothing more than that. Furthurmore, this opinion is is not necessarily the opinion of CVN, any of its affiliates, or anyone else on Earth.
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#564391 - 10/22/04 08:00 PM
Re: K&N filter results
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Over the Hill
Registered: 04/13/03
Posts: 1896
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#564393 - 10/23/04 02:08 PM
Re: K&N filter results
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Climber
Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 702
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I saw absoultely NO improvements in MPG on my Beast nor any of the other five V-8 vehicles I've had K&N's on cause I beat the dawgsh*t out of em'.  I like K&N's and as I apply the oil as you are supposed to do, I have NEVER had a problem with MAF fouling. I haven't dyno'ed my car but my ass-o-meter and highly scientific acceleration testing (racing 'em) tells me it helped my car and my wife's Vic as well. As far as the MAF screws go, I also just cut slots in 'em and put in relugar headed screws. Me be cheap, me no want buy expensive tool. Just my two cents.
_________________________
*01 P.I., my new Beasty. K & N FIPK, 16x7 steelies and dog dishes with new 245-50-16's, wellfare Flowmaster (V-Force mufflers, they sound pretty close)2-chambers with turndowns, Alpine CD Deck. More soon!
*94 P.I. My old patrol car. (Sold and sorely missed)
When I got issued my new (01) P.I., I bought my old beasty. Jasper trans with shift kit, K&N, 2 1/4" Exhaust with X-pipe and turned-down 2-Chamber Flowmasters. 16x7 steelies. SOLD AND MISSED
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#564394 - 10/23/04 03:18 PM
Re: K&N filter results
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Climber
Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 798
Loc: Middle of Minnesota
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^^This guy is awsome, I totally agree with you man.
_________________________
1997 Mercury Grand Marquis LS/SS *Goodbye old friend* 2003 Mercury Grand Marquis GS 
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#564395 - 10/23/04 04:42 PM
Re: K&N filter results
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Tech Admin
Grand Poobah
Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 13025
Loc: Socialist state of MN
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Um changing an air filter CANNOT (as in it is physically impossible) increase or decrease fuel economy. Why? Fuel economy is determined by a few things:
-Drag (cannot change that much)
-HEGOs, either they work or they do not, if not, replace them
-Driving style, the more power you demand, the lower your economy
-Fuel, Oxygenated fuels return lower economy
-MAF, a dirty MAF may slightly increase economy because the EEC will calculate load lower than it really is. Very small effect.
Nothing here on filtration, becaue it DOES NOT MATTER.
_________________________
- 2004 Mercury Grand Marquis (GMQ) GS - aka "Data"
Save MILLIONS, vote to outsource our Executives!
What happeded to "government by the people, of the people and for the people"?
RIP Ronald W. Reagan "The Great #40"
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#564396 - 10/23/04 05:10 PM
Re: K&N filter results
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Over the Hill
Registered: 04/19/03
Posts: 3156
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I'm pretty sure air has a big part to play in the air/fuel ratio. =)
Less air, means less fuel used, which means less power made, which means inefficieny, which means less fuel economy.
Of course, more air doesn't mean more fuel economy.
If you don't believe me go put duct tape over half your air filter.
_________________________
I'm Dark, I'm Dan....I'm Darkdan. 98 CVPI With A Black Grill! Southern MN's Cheapest (and 2nd worst) window tinter! 3M Paint Protection Film!
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#564397 - 10/23/04 06:03 PM
Re: K&N filter results
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Tech Admin
Grand Poobah
Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 13025
Loc: Socialist state of MN
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Nope, nothing.
The HEGO sensors report the AFR to the EEC, and THAT is what controls AFR, not the amout of air entering the engine.
These cars are NOT carburated where less air (at the same pressure) will enrichen the AFR.
_________________________
- 2004 Mercury Grand Marquis (GMQ) GS - aka "Data"
Save MILLIONS, vote to outsource our Executives!
What happeded to "government by the people, of the people and for the people"?
RIP Ronald W. Reagan "The Great #40"
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#564398 - 10/23/04 10:30 PM
Re: K&N filter results
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Over the Hill
Registered: 04/19/03
Posts: 3156
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1.) Air enters the engine
2.) goes through the combustion process
3.) exhaust gases exit the engine and the HEGO reads it
What's step one in this process?
Of course, engines only need so much air for a certain RPM range and most paper filters are well capable of flowing enough air for the engine. Only when the filter actually becomes a bottleneck does it begin to matter.
I didn't mean to imply the air filter dictates the air / fuel ratio. I meant it to come across as the air filter dictates the volume of air for the air/fuel ratio to be used to calculate the fuel that needs to be used. Thus, more air needs more fuel (using the air/fuel ratio) and therefore more power.
_________________________
I'm Dark, I'm Dan....I'm Darkdan. 98 CVPI With A Black Grill! Southern MN's Cheapest (and 2nd worst) window tinter! 3M Paint Protection Film!
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#564400 - 10/24/04 01:00 AM
Re: K&N filter results
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Tech Admin
Grand Poobah
Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 13025
Loc: Socialist state of MN
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You CANNOT improve your power (airflow) by replacing even a dirty standard paper filter with a "free flowing" K&N (or any other) panel air filter.
I am the ONLY person to have DYNO PROOF that K&N panel (factory replacement) filters offer ABSOLUTELY ZERO improvement. Not marketing crap, not wishful thinking, not "theory", but dyno proven results.
_________________________
- 2004 Mercury Grand Marquis (GMQ) GS - aka "Data"
Save MILLIONS, vote to outsource our Executives!
What happeded to "government by the people, of the people and for the people"?
RIP Ronald W. Reagan "The Great #40"
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#564401 - 10/24/04 01:15 AM
Re: K&N filter results
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Poobah
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 7781
Loc: Timbuk3, MI
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Quote:
JohnG - You CANNOT improve your power (airflow) by replacing even a dirty standard paper filter with a "free flowing" K&N (or any other) panel air filter.
I am the ONLY person to have DYNO PROOF that K&N panel (factory replacement) filters offer ABSOLUTELY ZERO improvement. Not marketing crap, not wishful thinking, not "theory", but dyno proven results.
There you go clouding the issue with facts. 
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#564402 - 10/24/04 02:11 AM
Re: K&N filter results
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Climber
Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 702
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Me not use panull filtur me use konikull filtur.
Me not unnerstand sy-inss.
Me juss stupid gearhead Po-leece what like K&N.
Me borded, lets see if me can make more argumints happin about filturrz.
Funny how K&N's are worthless but everybody and their brother uses them.
Funny how other people with access to dyno's say they do improve over stock systems.
I don't really care one way or another, I like 'em, I've been using them for years, they offer an improvement I can feel and see, and I'll continue to use 'em.
I'm just bustin' yer chops JonG so don't throw me out of the club OK?. HA HA HA
_________________________
*01 P.I., my new Beasty. K & N FIPK, 16x7 steelies and dog dishes with new 245-50-16's, wellfare Flowmaster (V-Force mufflers, they sound pretty close)2-chambers with turndowns, Alpine CD Deck. More soon!
*94 P.I. My old patrol car. (Sold and sorely missed)
When I got issued my new (01) P.I., I bought my old beasty. Jasper trans with shift kit, K&N, 2 1/4" Exhaust with X-pipe and turned-down 2-Chamber Flowmasters. 16x7 steelies. SOLD AND MISSED
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#564403 - 10/24/04 07:17 AM
Re: K&N filter results
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Over the Hill
Registered: 04/19/03
Posts: 3156
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Obviously if you're already getting enough air putting on a filter that flows 1900 cfm isn't going to improve airflow.
I've been a long time advocate of telling kids they aren't going to get 15 hp from their intake.
What I'm saying is as far as the blanket statement, "CANNOT improve fuel ecomony" is wrong.
Don't believe me. Go put duct tape over half your air filter and dyno it again.
_________________________
I'm Dark, I'm Dan....I'm Darkdan. 98 CVPI With A Black Grill! Southern MN's Cheapest (and 2nd worst) window tinter! 3M Paint Protection Film!
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#564404 - 10/24/04 12:27 PM
Re: K&N filter results
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Tech Admin
Grand Poobah
Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 13025
Loc: Socialist state of MN
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Quote:
What I'm saying is as far as the blanket statement, "CANNOT improve fuel ecomony" is wrong.
Dan,
What I'm saying, is FACT. There is absolutely NO WAY a plugged, clean, or NO air filter CAN have any affect on economy on a Modern Fuel Injected engine , and it's a documented fact.
It takes "X" Hp to move a given vehicle at 60 MPH under any given atmospheric conditions. Assuming everything else is the same, the amount of FUEL it takes to attain "X" Hp does NOT CHANGE, nor does the required amount of air. For some cars, this is as little as 15 Hp, for others as much as 50. Both of these numbers are WELL below the "peak" numbers for our cars (1/10 to 1/3). Furthermore, as I stated above, economy is determined by the amount of fuel burned over a given distance. This is determined by the power (work) required over that distance. If two cars, one having a dirty air filter, and one having a "free flowing" filter travel the exact same course after having been warmed up fully, and they are functionally identicle in every measureable was EXCEPT for the air filter, how would it be possible for one to use more/less fuel than the other? They both have EXACTLY the same work to do (power requirement), so they will burn exactly the same amount of fuel do do it (within measurement error). The AFR which you suggest is somehow affected by the air filter, I don't see whay you think so, is EEC controlled from HEGO input, so if you injest less air, less fuel will be added to maintain command AFT, it really is that simple.
Argue all you want, the FACTS ARE that a dirty air filter cannot posibally affect economy on a modern fuel injected engine.
_________________________
- 2004 Mercury Grand Marquis (GMQ) GS - aka "Data"
Save MILLIONS, vote to outsource our Executives!
What happeded to "government by the people, of the people and for the people"?
RIP Ronald W. Reagan "The Great #40"
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#564405 - 10/24/04 01:02 PM
Re: K&N filter results
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Over the Hill
Registered: 04/19/03
Posts: 3156
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Cars don't only go 60 mph.
_________________________
I'm Dark, I'm Dan....I'm Darkdan. 98 CVPI With A Black Grill! Southern MN's Cheapest (and 2nd worst) window tinter! 3M Paint Protection Film!
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#564407 - 10/24/04 02:45 PM
Re: K&N filter results
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Climber
Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 525
Loc: Behind you
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Quote:
Originally posted by JohnG
Um changing an air filter CANNOT (as in it is physically impossible) increase or decrease fuel economy. Why? Fuel economy is determined by a few things:
-Drag (cannot change that much)
-HEGOs, either they work or they do not, if not, replace them
-Driving style, the more power you demand, the lower your economy
-Fuel, Oxygenated fuels return lower economy
-MAF, a dirty MAF may slightly increase economy because the EEC will calculate load lower than it really is. Very small effect.
Nothing here on filtration, becaue it DOES NOT MATTER.
John, if this is true, why was there a different number on my trip odometer at the end of a gas tank back when I switched to a K&N filter?
That's interesting aboot oxygenated fuels. Does that mean the ethanol that I'm forced to use because I live in a socialist state actually causes me to pollute the air more? Wow, I thought it was bad enough that it takes far more energy to create ethanol than the amount of energy created when it's burned (and where does that extra energy come from? Fossil fuels...).
Quote:
You CANNOT improve your power (airflow) by replacing even a dirty standard paper filter with a "free flowing" K&N (or any other) panel air filter.
Explain to me this situation: In '98, I went to the auto parts store and got a K&N filter. I put it in, replacing the old paper filter, which was clogged and nasty. I did nothing else to the car. When I started the car, and stepped on the gas, the car went faster. I suppose a car can get up and go faster without an increase in horsepower or torque, but I must have missed that lesson in physics class.
Quote:
What I'm saying, is FACT. There is absolutely NO WAY a plugged, clean, or NO air filter CAN have any affect on economy on a Modern Fuel Injected engine , and it's a documented fact.
It takes "X" Hp to move a given vehicle at 60 MPH . . . the amount of FUEL it takes to attain "X" Hp does NOT CHANGE, nor does the required amount of air . . . so if you injest less air, less fuel will be added to maintain command AFT, it really is that simple.
Did I miss something? If it takes a set amount of fuel to yield the amount of horsepower that is required to move a vehicle at 60 mph, and the amount of air (and therefore fuel) is changed, how can the same horsepower be yielded? By this same logic, if my engine is sucking in air through a McDonalds straw and nothing else, the PCM, gathering info from the O2 sensors, will only allow a very small amount of fuel to be burned in order to keep the air-to-fuel ratio optimal. Well, since this still gives me the same amount of horsepower, I'm going to save a buttload of gas! Methinks I spy my next modification. McDonalds, here I come!
Quote:
Originally posted by darkdan
Cars don't only go 60 mph.
LMAO!!!
_________________________
'93 P71 | Diseased 281 | 4R70W | Rusty as a cow's ass | AMSOIL EaA49 Air Filter | AMSOIL Lubes
Recently retired: AMSOIL TS49 Air Filter (goodbye oiled filters!)
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#564408 - 10/24/04 04:44 PM
Re: K&N filter results
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Tech Admin
Grand Poobah
Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 13025
Loc: Socialist state of MN
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OK,
If some of you shoose to believe the TOTAL BULLSH.T that the marketing departments have drummed up, I really cannot educate you to the facts.... you have been brainwashed by bullsh.t and are happy to have been.
DO NOT pass that same BS off as fact.
The amount of AIR entering the engine has, contrary to popular belief, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with AFR. Until you accept that fact, any attempt at further explanation is uttery pointless.
Even my 3yr old understands that the amount of milk in the glass has nothing whatsoever to do with how "chocolaty" it is, it is the RATIO that matters.
_________________________
- 2004 Mercury Grand Marquis (GMQ) GS - aka "Data"
Save MILLIONS, vote to outsource our Executives!
What happeded to "government by the people, of the people and for the people"?
RIP Ronald W. Reagan "The Great #40"
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#564409 - 10/24/04 04:58 PM
Re: K&N filter results
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Over the Hill
Registered: 08/31/04
Posts: 3645
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I'm not an expert, just someone who is interested in this subject, and likes to discuss mechanical things. I always thought it was like Squeek said: the PCM matches the fuel distribution rate with intake air(amount and temp)so that the motor is neither too rich nor too lean at all times(optimally), using other inputs such as from the O2 sensors, and other info. If there is more air flowing in, then the PCM would call for a matching increase in fuel, therefore for a certain compression stroke, there would be MORE A/F mixture to explode, therefore a bigger explosion and more power. I think that the whole reason people went to multiple carbs and such was to increase the AMOUNT of combustable mixture. Now, I KNOW we are not talking about carbs here, but I would think that the basic priciple would be the same, whether it is a tractor trailer motor or a weedwacker: more A/F mix, the more powerful the explosion, and more power. Maybe you need a hotter spark to fully take advantage of this, maybe this logic applies more towards turboed or S/C motors, instead of N/A. Maybe I don't know wtf I am talking about...........just an interesting discussion is all. Maybe some of you guys who have a little more experience can explain to me why my thinking is wrong, it might prevent me from looking like an idiot at a later date.
_________________________
1993 GM LS
243k miles
29.5mm PI front bar(ENS greaseable poly bushings),21mm HPP rear bar(ENS poly bushings/endlinks),Mechanical Stewart-Warner oil pressure gauge. Black steelies/center caps...K&N filter
1994 Lincoln Mark VIII
144k miles
All airbags switched to coils/struts, junk tranny, motor donor car
Mercury Owners Group
This is a disclaimer:
This post is the opinion of the person in question. It is presented as nothing more than that. Furthurmore, this opinion is is not necessarily the opinion of CVN, any of its affiliates, or anyone else on Earth.
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#564410 - 10/24/04 05:01 PM
Not at all..
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Over the Hill
Registered: 04/14/01
Posts: 1083
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"but I just cut a slot in the top of the security torx with a dremel, removed them with a screwdriver and replaced them with regular torx. I know it's hacking but now it's done."
I don't see a problem with this technique.
A-Train
_________________________
AED Supercharged 4.6L 1995 T-Bird
Lot's of goodies...
325 RWHP and 380 RWTQ
12.739 best e.t. & 109.45 best mph
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#564411 - 10/24/04 05:23 PM
Re: Not at all..
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Tech Admin
Grand Poobah
Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 13025
Loc: Socialist state of MN
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1BAD,
You are basically correct about the PCM matching the fuel to the air entering the engine. That is EXACTLY how you CANNOT affect AFR (and consequently economy) by changing your air filter.
Now, with our cars (non-MM), the air box is the cork, unless you remove the cork, the best flowing air filter in the WORLD (heck, even NO air filter) will not add even 1 hp. How? The stock filter flows more air dirty than the engine can injest anyway (in CFM at a given pressure drop). The fact is, you cannot ad Hp by mearly changing your air filter on these cars. I'm not saying that on NO CAR can it add power. I was VERY specific about referring to panthers with PANEL air filters. You will add power if you change to a conical, but then even a lowly inexpensive paper filter will give an improvement.
_________________________
- 2004 Mercury Grand Marquis (GMQ) GS - aka "Data"
Save MILLIONS, vote to outsource our Executives!
What happeded to "government by the people, of the people and for the people"?
RIP Ronald W. Reagan "The Great #40"
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#564412 - 10/24/04 05:31 PM
Re: K&N filter results
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Grand Poobah
Registered: 09/01/04
Posts: 13888
Loc: Sacramento-ish
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#564413 - 10/24/04 06:30 PM
Re: K&N filter results
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Over the Hill
Registered: 04/19/03
Posts: 3156
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Quote:
I didn't mean to imply the air filter dictates the air / fuel ratio. I meant it to come across as the air filter dictates the volume of air for the air/fuel ratio to be used to calculate the fuel that needs to be used. Thus, more air needs more fuel (using the air/fuel ratio) and therefore more power.
I also mentioned whether or not the air filter was the bottle neck as far as improving performance.
I live in Owatonna. Go duct tape your air filter and drive down here and record your mileage. Take the duct tape off and go home. Record your mileage again.
We all know adding a K&N isn't going to give 15 hp. We aren't that brainwashed. But comparing a dirty filter to a clean K&N does help fuel economy.
Heck, even Ford says so in the manual (well, not K&N specifically).
_________________________
I'm Dark, I'm Dan....I'm Darkdan. 98 CVPI With A Black Grill! Southern MN's Cheapest (and 2nd worst) window tinter! 3M Paint Protection Film!
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#564414 - 10/24/04 11:14 PM
Re: K&N filter results
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Tech Admin
Grand Poobah
Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 13025
Loc: Socialist state of MN
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Dan,
Stop lying to people.
Based on your completely WRONG ideas of what affects economy, we should all remove our air filters and get better mileage.
I have posted the FACTs, not opinion, not ideas or theories, but FACTS.
If you failed to understand that my EXAMPLE of 60 MPH was exactly that, an example, then that would explain your complete failure to grasp the other facts as I have born them out.
_________________________
- 2004 Mercury Grand Marquis (GMQ) GS - aka "Data"
Save MILLIONS, vote to outsource our Executives!
What happeded to "government by the people, of the people and for the people"?
RIP Ronald W. Reagan "The Great #40"
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#564415 - 10/24/04 11:18 PM
Re: K&N filter results
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Climber
Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 525
Loc: Behind you
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Quote:
Originally posted by JohnG
Fuel economy is determined by a few things:
-Drag (cannot change that much)
-HEGOs, either they work or they do not, if not, replace them
-Driving style, the more power you demand, the lower your economy
-Fuel, Oxygenated fuels return lower economy
-MAF, a dirty MAF may slightly increase economy because the EEC will calculate load lower than it really is. Very small effect.
Contradiction:
Quote:
You are basically correct about the PCM matching the fuel to the air entering the engine. That is EXACTLY how you CANNOT affect AFR (and consequently economy) by changing your air filter.
Why are you talking aboot air-to-fuel ratio if it's not in your list of things that make a difference in fuel economy? Oh wait, it looks like you changed your mind. Kerry.
Quote:
What I'm saying, is FACT. There is absolutely NO WAY a plugged, clean, or NO air filter CAN have any affect on economy on a Modern Fuel Injected engine , and it's a documented fact.
It takes "X" Hp to move a given vehicle at 60 MPH . . . the amount of FUEL it takes to attain "X" Hp does NOT CHANGE, nor does the required amount of air . . . so if you injest less air, less fuel will be added to maintain command AFT, it really is that simple.
I'm still waiting to hear the explanation of your logic here. If the engine takes in less air, horsepower is decreased. By your own explanation.
Quote:
If some of you shoose to believe the TOTAL BULLSH.T that the marketing departments have drummed up, I really cannot educate you to the facts.... you have been brainwashed by bullsh.t and are happy to have been.
Are you saying then, that the extra kick that I felt after changing to K&N was simply a result of brainwashing by the K&N Marketing Department? That's rich. No pun intended.
Quote:
If two cars, one having a dirty air filter, and one having a "free flowing" filter travel the exact same course after having been warmed up fully, and they are functionally identicle in every measureable was EXCEPT for the air filter, how would it be possible for one to use more/less fuel than the other? They both have EXACTLY the same work to do (power requirement), so they will burn exactly the same amount of fuel do do it (within measurement error).
Let's examine your hypothetical situation:
Car 1 is sucking air through a McDonald's straw. In order to avoid the engine running rich, the air-to-fuel ratio is adjusted to allow less fuel to be burned. Car 1 is heading to point B from point A.
Car 2 has no air filter whatsoever. In order to avoid the engine running lean, the air-to-fuel ratio is adjusted to inject more fuel. Car 2 is heading to point B from point A.
Car 1 is sucking in 14 fluid ounces of air per second, and the PCM is matching that with 1 fluid ounce of fuel per second.
Car 2 is sucking in 28 fluid ounces of air per second, and the PCM is matching that with 2 fluid ounces of fuel per second.
JohnG, you are absolutely right. Car 1 and Car 2 have the exact same air-to-fuel ratio. They both travel the same distance. Therefore, they will burn the same amount of fuel.
But what aboot the time it takes to travel that distance? Since Car 1 only drinks half the gas as Car 2 (assuming the same RPM), it will take twice as long to get to point B.
You see, the flaw in your argument lies in your apparent misunderstanding of the term power. Energy is created by fuel, and that energy creates work. But power is the ratio of work to time. Therefore, in this example, the restriction of airflow cuts the power in half. For Car 1 to cover the same distance in the same period of time, twice as much fuel must be used. It really is that simple.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are just a few sites that would fool us silly consumers into thinking that air filters have anything to do with fuel economy:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/maintain.shtml
http://www.vioc.com/pages/gassaving.asp
http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/cars/gas-save/gas.htm
http://www.diynet.com
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/list/top10/103164/article.html
_________________________
'93 P71 | Diseased 281 | 4R70W | Rusty as a cow's ass | AMSOIL EaA49 Air Filter | AMSOIL Lubes
Recently retired: AMSOIL TS49 Air Filter (goodbye oiled filters!)
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#564416 - 10/24/04 11:23 PM
Re: K&N filter results
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Climber
Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 525
Loc: Behind you
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JohnG, I'm not saying that the results from your dyno test (which I'm sure wasn't cheap) are false or useless.
My simple point is that I agree with darkdan--you can't make a blanket statement based on one dyno test. I'm curious as to what the results would be from his suggestion of covering half the filter with duct tape. Let me know if you dyno it. 
_________________________
'93 P71 | Diseased 281 | 4R70W | Rusty as a cow's ass | AMSOIL EaA49 Air Filter | AMSOIL Lubes
Recently retired: AMSOIL TS49 Air Filter (goodbye oiled filters!)
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#564417 - 10/25/04 12:26 AM
Re: K&N filter results
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Tech Admin
Grand Poobah
Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 13025
Loc: Socialist state of MN
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Since you cannot comprehend...... Quote:
Why are you talking aboot air-to-fuel ratio if it's not in your list of things that make a difference in fuel economy? Oh wait, it looks like you changed your mind. Kerry.
Duh, HEGO = Heated Exhaust Gas Oxygen sensor, sends AFR data to the PCM, therefore the PCM can match command with actual AFR.
Quote:
I'm still waiting to hear the explanation of your logic here. If the engine takes in less air, horsepower is decreased. By your own explanation.
And your point is?
Quote:
Are you saying then, that the extra kick that I felt after changing to K&N was simply a result of brainwashing by the K&N Marketing Department? That's rich. No pun intended.
The extra kick was indeed the fact that you believe the BS, little more than if you had changed to a decent paper filter. I give you the courtesy of assuming you are referring to a panel air filter.
Quote:
Let's examine your hypothetical situation:
Car 1 is sucking air through a McDonald's straw. In order to avoid the engine running rich, the air-to-fuel ratio is adjusted to allow less fuel to be burned. Car 1 is heading to point B from point A.
Car 2 has no air filter whatsoever. In order to avoid the engine running lean, the air-to-fuel ratio is adjusted to inject more fuel. Car 2 is heading to point B from point A.
ROFLMAO You are dense. For any test to be valid, EVERYTHING must remain the same, EXCEPT for the ONE thing you are testing. You have altered two things, the vehicle (1&2), and the direction (1>2, and 2>1). Utterly useless. When you understand how to do "double blind" testing, let us know. Until then, keep your baseless ideas to yourself.
Quote:
Car 1 is sucking in 14 fluid ounces of air per second, and the PCM is matching that with 1 fluid ounce of fuel per second.
Car 2 is sucking in 28 fluid ounces of air per second, and the PCM is matching that with 2 fluid ounces of fuel per second.
You don't even understand how air and fuel are measured. Educate yourself, then get back to us.
Quote:
JohnG, you are absolutely right. Car 1 and Car 2 have the exact same air-to-fuel ratio. They both travel the same distance. Therefore, they will burn the same amount of fuel.
Great, you agree with me, but you are WRONG. You changed three things. 1) Vehicles, 2) Direction of travel, and 3) Inlet restriction. Your example is utterly meaningless.
Quote:
But what aboot the time it takes to travel that distance? Since Car 1 only drinks half the gas as Car 2 (assuming the same RPM), it will take twice as long to get to point B.
More of your . How can one car use less fuel than the other? You don't know jack about simple physics do you. Go educate yourself, then come back.
Quote:
You see, the flaw in your argument lies in your apparent misunderstanding of the term power. Energy is created by fuel, and that energy creates work. But power is the ratio of work to time. Therefore, in this example, the restriction of airflow cuts the power in half. For Car 1 to cover the same distance in the same period of time, twice as much fuel must be used. It really is that simple.
Again, you cannot comprehend simple physics. When YOU understand the difference between WORK and power, come back.
_________________________
- 2004 Mercury Grand Marquis (GMQ) GS - aka "Data"
Save MILLIONS, vote to outsource our Executives!
What happeded to "government by the people, of the people and for the people"?
RIP Ronald W. Reagan "The Great #40"
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#564418 - 10/25/04 01:56 AM
Re: K&N filter results
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Member
Registered: 08/21/04
Posts: 398
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All of this over a stupid air filter?
_________________________
 `99 Vicster LX 2 12" Image Dynamics ID Series Kustom Box Boss 950X2 Amp Pioneer DEH-6500 HUD Pioneer 6X8 3 ways all round 9.13Sec. 0-60mph 16.75Sec 1/4mile
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#564419 - 10/25/04 10:31 AM
Re: K&N filter results
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Rookie
Registered: 09/03/04
Posts: 55
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Hey all, I did not mean to start all of this. I was just wanting to know if I could expect any changes. I put it in this week end and I think by just my butt in the seat that it does have more HP. It does viberate a little here and there but I guess that will not hurt any thing. I am going to seafoam it this week to see if that helps any more. I will inform everyone in two weeks abou the gas MPG.
_________________________
2004 P71 Black/Dark Charcole 89000 miles
K&N FIPK Gen II
Pro copper console
Bearcat BC350A scanner
Motorola VHF Police radio
2 power supplies with 8 strobe heads
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#564420 - 10/25/04 10:34 AM
Re: K&N filter results
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Metroplectic
Registered: 11/13/00
Posts: 49827
Loc: Motor City, USA
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You cannot pass judgement over a product for gaining or losing under 3rwhp based on one dyno pull.
You can see a variation in rwhp dynoing the same car in the same conditions by up to 5-8 rwhp depending on the alignment of the moon with all the planets.
The only way to control everything is in a dyno test cell with a laboratory environment (temperature regulating all the parts in the vehicle platform).
That being said, the K&N drop-in filter didn't show much gain in JohnG's run so therefore it doesn't give you much hp if any.
I'm sticking with a paper filter but it wouldn't hurt much to use a K&N just for racing. My biggest gripe with K&N filters is the lack of filtration so it makes it a poor choice for daily driving.
_________________________
These aren't the droids you're looking for!
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#564423 - 10/25/04 11:02 AM
Re: K&N filter results
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Metroplectic
Registered: 11/13/00
Posts: 49827
Loc: Motor City, USA
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scott: The K&N doesn't filter as much. That is where the extra air comes from. My recommendation is that its good for racing, and not an ideal choice for daily driving.
I just tapped out my Marauder paper filter after only 6 months of daily usage. It sounded like I took home a part of the Sahara when I tapped it out.
K&N filters DO FLOW MORE AIR. But if you can't take advantage of this extra air flow, you're not going to see any significant increase in engine performance.
_________________________
These aren't the droids you're looking for!
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#564424 - 10/25/04 12:35 PM
Re: K&N filter results
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n00b
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 23
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Hey just my two cents worth, pretty intense thread, I wonder why they put the Mass Air Flow sensor on the cars to help determine injector pulses by reading the amount of air going in to the engine if the Hego are the sole instrument in determining a/f ratio and why would there need to be a air charge temperature sensor on there too, won't the o2's tell the computer how dense the air is coming into the engine, I think not. I put a K$N in my vic and improved seat of the pants feel, no dyno but not downshifting up hills that used to create the downshift out of overdrive tells me it improved power.
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#564425 - 10/25/04 01:55 PM
Re: K&N filter results
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Over the Hill
Registered: 04/19/03
Posts: 3156
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If you read the filter study I put up you'll see they're all panel filters.
The K&N (which allowed a lot of dirt) also had 72% of the restriction the top quality paper filter had at 350 cfm. Which is about 3700 rpms on our motors.
So under cruising since the K&N restrictions flow less the manifold vacuum is decreased. Therefore pumping loses are reduced (the manifold vacuum's way of trying to keep the cylinder from going down). The EGR system helps do the same thing.
_________________________
I'm Dark, I'm Dan....I'm Darkdan. 98 CVPI With A Black Grill! Southern MN's Cheapest (and 2nd worst) window tinter! 3M Paint Protection Film!
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#564426 - 10/25/04 02:23 PM
Re: K&N filter results
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Tech Admin
Grand Poobah
Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 13025
Loc: Socialist state of MN
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Quote:
I wonder why they put the Mass Air Flow sensor on the cars to help determine injector pulses by reading the amount of air going in to the engine if the Hego are the sole instrument in determining a/f ratio and why would there need to be a air charge temperature sensor on there too, won't the o2's tell the computer how dense the air is coming into the engine, I think not.
OK, good question.
The MAF does measure the MASS of incomming air, as you suggest. The MAF is used by the EEC for a few things, but basically it tells the EEC how much air is entering the engine, with that information, the EEC does calculate the injector pulse width. THEN it looks at the HEGOs to see how close that calculation was, and it's usually very close. Now, you see, the EEC looked to the HEGO for validation of the correctness of the calculation, not to the MAF. HEGOs do not measure MASS, if you don't know that, it would explain the confusion.
As for the IAT, that has absolutely NO affect on AFR. This is NOT a speed-density type system, the MAF measures MASS, the injectors are calibrated in MASS, so the calculation for the EEC is straight forward. The IAT is there for ignition timing and AFR adjustment, but it is only an input that is compared to other inputs used by the EEC. It is not a control element.
_________________________
- 2004 Mercury Grand Marquis (GMQ) GS - aka "Data"
Save MILLIONS, vote to outsource our Executives!
What happeded to "government by the people, of the people and for the people"?
RIP Ronald W. Reagan "The Great #40"
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#564427 - 10/25/04 04:30 PM
Re: K&N filter results
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n00b
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 23
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I absolutely understand that the o2's dont measure mass, just stating that as the o2 are there as "checkers" to see that the other components in the air and fuel delivery as well as combustion are working properly. Suppose the wires are pretty trashy and are not delivering enough spark, naturally the computer is still measuring good airflow across the 2 heated wires and injecting the fuel for that flow, now the o2 is going to show a rich condition due to poor burn, do they have the ability to fold back the fuel curve or will they just throw a cel and let your combustion chamber and cats carbon up?
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#564429 - 10/26/04 12:25 AM
Re: K&N filter results
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Poobah
Registered: 02/15/04
Posts: 5381
Loc: Michigan
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I got a K&N filter in the garage and want to take my car to a strip run it a few times with and without the filter to get ideas.
_________________________
Previous Panthers
Grand Marquis
1986, 1993
Crown Victoria
1994, 1998
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#564430 - 10/26/04 09:37 AM
Re: K&N filter results
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Member
Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 251
Loc: Auburn, Georgia
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Thanks metroplex,
but that is really not what I was getting at. K&n or paper,
from what I am hearing the amount of air flow really does not matter. The engine will adjust and mileage and power is not affected?
Not saying I agree or disagree but that is what it seems JohnG is trying to say.
I do agree that you trade filtering for airflow. So perhaps I should rethink using my K&N with my heavy everyday driving.
As with a paper filter or any filter, as it gets dirty and airflow decreases why change it unless it is allowing dirt into the tube.
Anyway that is enough for me on this one.
thanks
_________________________
2003 CV LX Sport 234,000 miles
JUST THE USUAL MODS.....
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#564432 - 10/28/04 01:28 PM
Re: K&N filter results
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Rookie
Registered: 09/03/04
Posts: 55
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Hey all,
just to keep the talk going I am going to report better gas milage and butt HP. I was getting 19.3-20.2 MPG before the K&N cold air intake. I will post the new gas milage after a couple more tanks. I am driving the same route to work on the same days. Also I was reading the archive on putting a PI intake on NPI heads to increase some serious HP. Does anyone know big of an affect that will have on MPG???? I know on the standard more HP means less MPH but how big is the difference. This is another big issue a couple of months ago.
_________________________
2004 P71 Black/Dark Charcole 89000 miles
K&N FIPK Gen II
Pro copper console
Bearcat BC350A scanner
Motorola VHF Police radio
2 power supplies with 8 strobe heads
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#564433 - 11/01/04 10:50 AM
Re: K&N filter results
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Rookie
Registered: 09/03/04
Posts: 55
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1st tank of gas 21.4 MPG. On the second tank now.
_________________________
2004 P71 Black/Dark Charcole 89000 miles
K&N FIPK Gen II
Pro copper console
Bearcat BC350A scanner
Motorola VHF Police radio
2 power supplies with 8 strobe heads
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#564434 - 11/01/04 08:34 PM
Re: K&N filter results
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Grand Poobah
Registered: 09/01/04
Posts: 13888
Loc: Sacramento-ish
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Okay people, move along now, nothing more to see here.
_________________________
2000 Ford CVPI 2003-2011
2008 Ford Fusion 2012-
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#2412594 - 11/24/11 09:07 AM
Re: K&N filter results
[Re: rlmcjunk]
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Member
Registered: 07/22/11
Posts: 409
Loc: Fl
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Here's a question. There are companies that
And oil less reusable filters. On the k&N box it says the oil enhances dirt retention. So why not use it without oil. Wouldn't it be the same as a oil less filter?
_________________________
2004 Grand Marquis GS, 8500K HID's, Custom CAI with AEM Dryflow filter, Marauder corners, Niteshaded rear reflector. Sold.
2001 MGM GS. 124,000 miles and counting, custom intake / Gatorback
2012 Suzuki Kizashi
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#2412615 - 11/24/11 10:19 AM
Re: K&N filter results
[Re: JohnG]
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Member
Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 387
Loc: Florida
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You CANNOT improve your power (airflow) by replacing even a dirty standard paper filter with a "free flowing" K&N (or any other) panel air filter.
I am the ONLY person to have DYNO PROOF that K&N panel (factory replacement) filters offer ABSOLUTELY ZERO improvement. Not marketing crap, not wishful thinking, not "theory", but dyno proven results. I dont believe you! Your dyno test must have been flawed. If an air filter is dirty and you say putting in a brand new air filter in makes zero difference in power. Then a car could have an air filter in it for 1,000,000 miles restricting mass amount of air, and the car would be fine, by your logic. I'm sure the difference between K&N and the paper filter is negligible still though because the ECU adjusts the fuel amount for the amount of air coming in.
_________________________
2000 Black CVPI with 138,000 mls. when purchased in AUG. 06
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#2412652 - 11/24/11 12:01 PM
Re: K&N filter results
[Re: rlmcjunk]
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Member
Registered: 07/22/11
Posts: 409
Loc: Fl
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The only reason I suggested using the filter un-oiled is to keep the MAF cleaner. However, I have been using k&n filters for years now and have never had an issue. They are so widely used on so many cars including exotics, therefore why would people continually use them if they caused issues?
_________________________
2004 Grand Marquis GS, 8500K HID's, Custom CAI with AEM Dryflow filter, Marauder corners, Niteshaded rear reflector. Sold.
2001 MGM GS. 124,000 miles and counting, custom intake / Gatorback
2012 Suzuki Kizashi
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#2412654 - 11/24/11 12:05 PM
Re: K&N filter results
[Re: rlmcjunk]
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Road Warrior
Climber
Registered: 02/23/04
Posts: 851
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Thanks for reviving a 7 year old thread, lol  Some intense debating going on back then... some things never change. 
_________________________
 2000 Grand Marquis LS - 169K *RIP* 2000 Lincoln Navigator 4WD - 102K 2000 CVPI Factory CNG "Gassy" - 120K *RIP* 2010 Ford Escape Hybrid - 92K
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#2412664 - 11/24/11 12:21 PM
Re: K&N filter results
[Re: rlmcjunk]
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Member
Registered: 07/22/11
Posts: 409
Loc: Fl
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Lol
_________________________
2004 Grand Marquis GS, 8500K HID's, Custom CAI with AEM Dryflow filter, Marauder corners, Niteshaded rear reflector. Sold.
2001 MGM GS. 124,000 miles and counting, custom intake / Gatorback
2012 Suzuki Kizashi
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#2416458 - 12/01/11 06:29 AM
Re: K&N filter results
[Re: JohnG]
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Member
Registered: 07/22/11
Posts: 409
Loc: Fl
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where is that keep alive fuse located?
_________________________
2004 Grand Marquis GS, 8500K HID's, Custom CAI with AEM Dryflow filter, Marauder corners, Niteshaded rear reflector. Sold.
2001 MGM GS. 124,000 miles and counting, custom intake / Gatorback
2012 Suzuki Kizashi
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#2416467 - 12/01/11 08:09 AM
Re: K&N filter results
[Re: 1BADMERC]
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Member
Registered: 10/14/11
Posts: 186
Loc: West Chester Ohio
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Those tamper proof torx heads seem impossible to find a tool for, but every auto zone, O'Reilly's, Advance Auto, etc has them. Every time I've ever done work on my intake I just ask to use them and they give me a set to take out in the parking lot.
_________________________
Currently Pantherless :0
Sold my 2000 Lx HPP
Currently driving a 2004 Camry Le
1996 p71 burnt to the ground
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#2416474 - 12/01/11 08:22 AM
Re: K&N filter results
[Re: rlmcjunk]
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Member
Registered: 10/14/11
Posts: 186
Loc: West Chester Ohio
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I'm a noob here, and far from an expert on cars, but I believe it was said that the extra kick you feel from a K&N was simply in your mind, and a result of you being brainwashed. Well I had a dirty wix panel filter in my car, and I purchased a K&N drop in filter. I didnt have time to put it in though. So I set it in my garage. The next day I started my car up, and as I started driving, I noticed an increase in performance, very slight, but an increase nonetheless. Now nobody knows their car better than the driver, I definately felt the increase. But was puzzled because I had done nothing to the car. When I got home I found out that my friend had put the K&N panel filter in place of my dirty wix filter. I felt the extra kick, and had no idea the K&N was in my car. So explain to me how that's a result of brainwashing? It's not.
_________________________
Currently Pantherless :0
Sold my 2000 Lx HPP
Currently driving a 2004 Camry Le
1996 p71 burnt to the ground
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#2416476 - 12/01/11 08:29 AM
Re: K&N filter results
[Re: rlmcjunk]
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Member
Registered: 10/14/11
Posts: 186
Loc: West Chester Ohio
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Further more, and I'm not someone trying to argue, I'm just interested in the subject. So no disrespect to anyone, but JohnG didn't you say that the amount of air going into the engine is completely irrelevant to the horsepower and mpg etc.. So you're saying that no matter how little amount of air is going into the car the numbers will stay the same? So I can stop wasting money on nice filters and just leave the old black with dirt filter on that barely lets in air at all?
_________________________
Currently Pantherless :0
Sold my 2000 Lx HPP
Currently driving a 2004 Camry Le
1996 p71 burnt to the ground
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#2416527 - 12/01/11 10:57 AM
Re: K&N filter results
[Re: rlmcjunk]
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Over the Hill
Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 2299
Loc: Brookfield, WI
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I buy K+N because I like the fact that you can clean it and it does flow air better. Yes you may need to clean the MAF after cleaning the K+N but that is not a big deal. A clean filter will always feel better than a dirty one and I don't even think it makes the car any faster but it can make it more efficient if it is not pulling in air harder through a different filter granted the difference would not be noticeable unless you do a million miles on each. Some may see it as a placebo effect or what ever but who cares if you like it, run it, and if not then don't.
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2004 P71 Dodge County Sherrif 158K
3.27 Trac-Lock, BBK 78mm TB/Plenum, 1/2 inch spacer, SCT XCAL 2 Tuner with BOC Tune, OBX LT Headers Kit, ACCEL Super Coils, Light back tinted Headlights and Clear Side markers, 8K 55W HID, Heinous Control Arms from ADTR, 17 inch 06 GT Premium Rims
Up next either cams, stall, or gears.
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It sure as heck aint in my dictionary. 
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