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#704628 - 05/14/05 06:46 PM HP Gains: PI Cams on a NPI Engine?
Virginiamountainman Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 2093
Loc: North Carolina
Did a little reading in the Archives, and came up with some interesting numbers:

Comparing a '99 P71 to an '01 P71, I am aware that the 2001 is rated at 235 HP, vs. 215 HP in the '99. According to the figures I found, a '04 or '05 PI intake would be good for about 15 HP on the ground, on the '99. PI cams, according to these numbers, would be good for about 15 more HP on the ground on the same '99. I figure that's about 35 HP at the crank, right? That would put a '99 Model with PI cams and intake (with NPI heads) at around 250 HP with nothing else done, yet the '01, with an intake that's probably good for about 5 HP less and the same PI cams is rated at 235 HP. And supposedly, that includes about 5 HP for the PI heads. If these numbers are right, how can the '99 turn about 250 at the crank with NPI heads when the '01 turns 235 with PI heads? I'm not figuring anything for HP gain from added compression, since the PI heads would be on the PI engine.

Are these numbers right? Can I take a '99 P71, add a PI intake for a '04 or '05 plus PI cams, and end up with around 250 HP at the crank? If so, that makes the '99 even more attractive over the '01, since with the '99, I would get 3.55 gears, AND a stinking TC drain plug, which is significant to me.

I'm thinking seriously about upgrading to a '99 if these numbers are good. I would think in this case that with the MM airbox/MAF, zip tube and tuner, plus a set of underdrives perhaps, I should be somewhere around 260 HP. That's the number I'm really looking for, even tho it probably still wouldn't have the torque of an LT1 350. But geared 3.55 versus 3.10 (I believe, for the 9C1), I might just be able to keep up, and stay in a P71. That's the plan anyway.

Thanks for any input you can share.
_________________________
2004 silver unmarked P71 Lieutenant's car from NCSHP, purchased 060208 with 90,247 easy miles. Geared 3.27. Accufab 70MM throttle body. Accufab plenum, ported and polished. NGK TR55IX plugs. Magnaflow direct fit high flow cat pipes. Magnaflow 12255 mufflers. Steeda underdrives. Goodyear Assurance TripleTred 225/60/16. Drilled/slotted rotors with ceramic pads. UHaul trans pan with a STINKING drain plug that should have come from the factory.


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#704629 - 05/14/05 07:02 PM Re: HP Gains: PI Cams on a NPI Engine?
Tony_the_Brit Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 09/16/01
Posts: 2919
Loc: Indiana - South Bend area
Most of these upgrades produce significantly less hp than claimed. Also, you are making the mistake of believing Ford's hp claims for stock.

If you want performance then you want the PI heads.
_________________________

11 Crown Vic LX Blue 151,000 m

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#704630 - 05/14/05 07:59 PM Re: HP Gains: PI Cams on a NPI Engine?
BigTomZ Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 02/24/04
Posts: 1258
a friend of mine did the PI intake and cams on his 97 GT. stock NPI heads. he said his dyno test showed a 26 rwhp increase even with the temp and humidity being a little higher than it was on his baseline runs. obviously im just going at his word, i wasnt there with him. i can say that i noticed his car had plenty more pull next time i rode in it.
_________________________
2000 Grand Marquis LS HPP - Marauder airbox with 80mm MAF, 04 P71 zip tube, ADTR ported upper intake, SCT Xcalibrator with Reinhart custom tuning, Steeda underdrives, Gatorback belt, 3.55 gears, 11.25" torque converter, dual exhaust, Flowmaster 40's, 3" tailpipes. Alpine CDA-7998 CD/MP3 player, JL Audio 500/1 amp, JL Audio 300/4 amp, 2 Infinity Perfect 12 inch subwoofers, Boston Acoustic door and deck speakers, Stinger 1 farad capacitor.

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#704631 - 05/15/05 04:45 PM Re: HP Gains: PI Cams on a NPI Engine?
JohnG Offline
Tech Admin
Grand Poobah

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 13025
Loc: Socialist state of MN
The gains from PI cams ALONE are not all that great, maybe 10-15 RWHP. If you add the PI intake that nearly doubles, if you bump the shift points and rev-limiter to around 6,000 RPM, you can gain nealry 35 RWHP over the stock NPI set up (peak to peak at 6,000 rpm). This is because the NPI stuff drops power off FAST over 5400rpm, so the differences at 6000 rpm or ore are very significant.

So, the answer is: It depends.
_________________________
- 2004 Mercury Grand Marquis (GMQ) GS - aka "Data"
Save MILLIONS, vote to outsource our Executives!
What happeded to "government by the people, of the people and for the people"?
RIP Ronald W. Reagan "The Great #40"

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#704632 - 05/15/05 04:57 PM Re: HP Gains: PI Cams on a NPI Engine?
Virginiamountainman Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 2093
Loc: North Carolina
Thanks, John. Even if it's just 10 RWHP, if you figure another 15 RWHP for the '04 P71 intake as previously stated, that still comes out to about 29.... so let's round off to 30... HP at the crank. Right? That would put a 215 HP otherwise stock '99 P71 at 245 HP WITHOUT the PI heads the 235 HP '01 would include. I still don't understand how it can work out that way, but it looks like one would actually be better off in terms of power going this way. Plus, you get 3.55 gears, a TC drain plug, and about a thousand dollar lower price tag.

I'm leaning strongly towards upgrading to a '99 and starting with these two mods, plus Time Serts or another spark plug thread remedy while I have everything torn all apart.
_________________________
2004 silver unmarked P71 Lieutenant's car from NCSHP, purchased 060208 with 90,247 easy miles. Geared 3.27. Accufab 70MM throttle body. Accufab plenum, ported and polished. NGK TR55IX plugs. Magnaflow direct fit high flow cat pipes. Magnaflow 12255 mufflers. Steeda underdrives. Goodyear Assurance TripleTred 225/60/16. Drilled/slotted rotors with ceramic pads. UHaul trans pan with a STINKING drain plug that should have come from the factory.


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#704633 - 05/15/05 05:51 PM Re: HP Gains: PI Cams on a NPI Engine?
Buck268 Offline

Grand Poobah

Registered: 02/27/02
Posts: 12132
Loc: Grand Rapids, MI
That sounds like a damn good plan, good luck with the project!
_________________________
Dead: 1994 Crown Vic LX/HPP... over 190,000 miles when she got totalled frown
Gone: 1996 Mustang GT 5spd, drop top, Bassani OR X-pipe, Dynomax Ultraflows, PI Cams, K&N FIPK, C&L Elbow and 75mm TB, PIAA 1700X...
Dead: 2012 Mustang V6 Performance Package, Kona Blue with MagnaFlow "Street" catback. KIA August 2012 frown

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#704634 - 05/15/05 05:56 PM Re: HP Gains: PI Cams on a NPI Engine?
2000NARC Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1049
Loc: Belmont Shore
Quote:

The gains from PI cams ALONE are not all that great, maybe 10-15 RWHP. If you add the PI intake that nearly doubles, if you bump the shift points and rev-limiter to around 6,000 RPM, you can gain nealry 35 RWHP over the stock NPI set up (peak to peak at 6,000 rpm). This is because the NPI stuff drops power off FAST over 5400rpm, so the differences at 6000 rpm or ore are very significant.

So, the answer is: It depends.




Hey, John, how would you mount the NPI engine to the PI intake? Is there an adapter out there or just bolt on? Just curious, sounds like a good swap.
_________________________
1996 Mustang GT, dark blue effect

19" ADR Spartans, 99 PI engine swap, flowmasters, 70mm TB,
Plenum spacer, Stalker 2 front bumper, front coilover kit

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#704635 - 05/15/05 06:32 PM Re: HP Gains: PI Cams on a NPI Engine?
metroplex Offline
Metroplectic

Registered: 11/13/00
Posts: 49827
Loc: Motor City, USA
Quote:

Quote:

The gains from PI cams ALONE are not all that great, maybe 10-15 RWHP. If you add the PI intake that nearly doubles, if you bump the shift points and rev-limiter to around 6,000 RPM, you can gain nealry 35 RWHP over the stock NPI set up (peak to peak at 6,000 rpm). This is because the NPI stuff drops power off FAST over 5400rpm, so the differences at 6000 rpm or ore are very significant.

So, the answer is: It depends.




Hey, John, how would you mount the NPI engine to the PI intake? Is there an adapter out there or just bolt on? Just curious, sounds like a good swap.




It sounds like VMM and 2000NARC stumbled upon a new world. Welcome to a few years ago... It's been done (PI intake on NPI heads, PI cam swap) ad nauseam. Check out Modular Depot or use the SEARCH feature on CVN.
_________________________
These aren't the droids you're looking for!

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#704636 - 05/15/05 06:58 PM Re: HP Gains: PI Cams on a NPI Engine?
Virginiamountainman Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 2093
Loc: North Carolina
My dear friend Charlie:

I am aware this has been done before. Well aware. I also used the 'search' function. I posed a question based on things I learned while searching that contradicted each other. And I appreciate the constructive answers I received.
_________________________
2004 silver unmarked P71 Lieutenant's car from NCSHP, purchased 060208 with 90,247 easy miles. Geared 3.27. Accufab 70MM throttle body. Accufab plenum, ported and polished. NGK TR55IX plugs. Magnaflow direct fit high flow cat pipes. Magnaflow 12255 mufflers. Steeda underdrives. Goodyear Assurance TripleTred 225/60/16. Drilled/slotted rotors with ceramic pads. UHaul trans pan with a STINKING drain plug that should have come from the factory.


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#704637 - 05/15/05 07:08 PM Re: HP Gains: PI Cams on a NPI Engine?
metroplex Offline
Metroplectic

Registered: 11/13/00
Posts: 49827
Loc: Motor City, USA
If I had a choice between a 2001-up Panther and a 98-00 Panther, I'd take the 01-up Panther and modify that. But if I had a choice between a Ford and a German diesel, I'd take the German diesel.
_________________________
These aren't the droids you're looking for!

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#704638 - 05/15/05 07:27 PM Re: HP Gains: PI Cams on a NPI Engine?
Virginiamountainman Offline
Over the Hill

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 2093
Loc: North Carolina
Metro:

Thanks for your response.

I noticed you mentioned that same preference on your FAQ site. But since you get a TC drain plug and 3.55s on the '99, plus about 30 more HP if you do the intake and cams, I am really curious as to why you still prefer the '01 or '02, with 3.27 gears and no drain plug. I can certainly afford an '01. That's not the problem. It just looks to me like an upgraded '99 would be more car, for a little less money. Looks like about 245 HP on an upgraded '99, versus a factory rating of 235 HP on a stock '01. Which may or may not be totally accurate.

I'm going to make this move in the near future, and would appreciate any input.
_________________________
2004 silver unmarked P71 Lieutenant's car from NCSHP, purchased 060208 with 90,247 easy miles. Geared 3.27. Accufab 70MM throttle body. Accufab plenum, ported and polished. NGK TR55IX plugs. Magnaflow direct fit high flow cat pipes. Magnaflow 12255 mufflers. Steeda underdrives. Goodyear Assurance TripleTred 225/60/16. Drilled/slotted rotors with ceramic pads. UHaul trans pan with a STINKING drain plug that should have come from the factory.


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#704639 - 05/15/05 10:30 PM Re: HP Gains: PI Cams on a NPI Engine?
Dextrovic Offline
Poobah

Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 7848
Loc:  
Quote:

If I had a choice between a 2001-up Panther and a 98-00 Panther, I'd take the 01-up Panther and modify that. But if I had a choice between a Ford and a German diesel, I'd take the German diesel.




What if the German diesel was a 80's-era VW?

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#704640 - 05/15/05 10:47 PM Re: HP Gains: PI Cams on a NPI Engine?
Tony_the_Brit Offline

Over the Hill

Registered: 09/16/01
Posts: 2919
Loc: Indiana - South Bend area
Virginamountainman - ask yourself this:

Why would a NPI head car make better power than a PI car when the only (major) differences apart from the heads are that the NPI car has a more recent air intake? This would suggest that the air intake is worth more than the PI heads which seems most unlikley to me!

How about if you added the intake to the PI car?

Something is wrong in the math here.

Incidentally, if there is any way you can afford it get an 03 - the suspension & brake changes transform the car.

One Q - by "air intake" I assume that you mean the "zip tube" - if that is so then you need a larger MAF since the zip tube is for an 80mm MAF (or some sort of adaptor).
_________________________

11 Crown Vic LX Blue 151,000 m

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#704641 - 05/15/05 11:00 PM Re: HP Gains: PI Cams on a NPI Engine?
JohnG Offline
Tech Admin
Grand Poobah

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 13025
Loc: Socialist state of MN
A base NPI eninge with PI bolt-ons (cams/intake) will never out power an "all PI" engine.

HOWEVER, ported NPI heads with the SAME cams and intake as a full "PI" engine w/ported heads will make more power. Not a lot more, but more.

MAFs, zip-tubes, and air boxes are all addative, but not in the traditional 1+1=2 way, more like the shortest distance between any two points on the globe is NOT a straight line on a flat (2D) map, but a curved one.
_________________________
- 2004 Mercury Grand Marquis (GMQ) GS - aka "Data"
Save MILLIONS, vote to outsource our Executives!
What happeded to "government by the people, of the people and for the people"?
RIP Ronald W. Reagan "The Great #40"

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#704642 - 05/15/05 11:41 PM Re: HP Gains: PI Cams on a NPI Engine?
ne_plus_ultra_1 Offline
n00b

Registered: 04/27/05
Posts: 32
Yeah, I had the embarrassment of riding in a new 84 VW Rabbit diesel that did all of 40MPH top speed up big hills. I was about 12 years old at the time. My dad must have been embarrassed too as he sold that diesel Rabbit and bought a new Porsche the next year.

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